Wasn't there already a thread on this? It's getting really old. Learn a new tune. Anybody with half a brain knows this is a possibility with online auctions. And for the record that's all auctions, not just one seller. All you need to do is have a little personal responsibility and impulse control, and to not become too married to a card before you own it. If you set a cap of $100 on a given card, and are not willing to spend more, then when it reaches $101 you walk away. If you get sucked into overbidding, that's your problem.
<< <i>Wasn't there already a thread on this? It's getting really old. . >>
It's getting old when a company states that they do their best to keep auction integrity, yet these red flags pop up ?
If you are the type that gets tired of people exposing suspicious activity, then just don't open these threads.
We must remember that there are always new members entering the hobby, reading these boards, and learning from what we write here. There is nothing wrong with threads like this constantly popping up to inform the newbies. Just my .02
Same relatively new bidder on both cards with very small dollar increments until he is winning. He has bid on PWCC auctions nearly 1/3 of the time. Is that the definition of shill bidding?
<< <i>Same relatively new bidder on both cards with very small dollar increments until he is winning. He has bid on PWCC auctions nearly 1/3 of the time. Is that the definition of shill bidding? >>
Not IMO. That kind of bidding activity is more representative of a new ebay member, which that bidder is. Shill bidding may go on quite a bit with consignment auctions, but this is not one of those times, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Wasn't there already a thread on this? It's getting really old. Learn a new tune. Anybody with half a brain knows this is a possibility with online auctions. And for the record that's all auctions, not just one seller. All you need to do is have a little personal responsibility and impulse control, and to not become too married to a card before you own it. If you set a cap of $100 on a given card, and are not willing to spend more, then when it reaches $101 you walk away. If you get sucked into overbidding, that's your problem. >>
If p**p is trying to win this card but isn't sure how much the card will go for, and so begins bidding at $22, then keeps increasing his bid in $2 increments as he finds his bids are too low, wouldn't the bid history look just like it does? I've bid that way before.
<< <i>Same relatively new bidder on both cards with very small dollar increments until he is winning. He has bid on PWCC auctions nearly 1/3 of the time. Is that the definition of shill bidding? >>
Not IMO. That kind of bidding activity is more representative of a new ebay member, which that bidder is. Shill bidding may go on quite a bit with consignment auctions, but this is not one of those times, imo. >>
Agreed. And I think one should be careful besmirching somebody else's reputation without proof. Plus, even if it is shilling, my stance is we're all grow ups and making a decision to participate in an online auction has inherent risks. Here is a quote from Dave (70stoppsfanatic) on the other thread:
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Those are just a few examples, but IMHO this month's PWCC auction was quite strong. >>
Is it strong on its' own merits, or did it have a little bit of help? >>
Bobby, its an Ebay auction. We all understand that and take it for what it is.
Is there really a need to try and start this kind of trouble AGAIN??? >>
i don't think there's anything wrong with being concerned about artificial manipulation of market pricing. it's a concern we should all have.
in this case, it seems the bidder in question wants these two examples real bad and may continue to boost in small increments if outbid again, so as to find the ceiling for other bidders. not unusual.
i agree with those who contend that it's about time we all try to worry less about shilling and just be pleased with a winning bid on our own terms, otherwise move on.
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
I would say that this rule is especially true when you're not questioning some new or anonymous seller, but a recognized brand of online auctioneer like Probstein or PWCC. Spend your energy "outing" new scam artists, not going after established sellers who have earned a rock solid reputation through thousands of tramsactions. Edmund should be careful or he might be run right off this site.
There were a few items I wanted to buy in some recent auctions. I caught them early so bidding was $20 or less for cards that were going to sell for $100-150 and more. Normally I would just set snipes and win or lose and never look back. Inspired by these shilling posts I thought maybe a good bidding strategy to scare away the paranoid bidder would be to bid early and very often. On most I bid the next increment and immediately got outbid by ceiling bids. Ebay makes bidding easy and fun like a video game so I started firing off bid after bid until I finally was the high bidder. On some I had to put 30-40 bids in until I was high. Then I set my snipe and wondered if I would be making somebody's next ridiculous shilling post.
1. If there is an integrity clause that you have to agree to, to not shill, and you do...then yes, that's wrong. You gave your word, so don't do it. 2. If you have a "gotta have it" attitude about collecting, as a buyer, 9 times out of 10 you're going to get the raw end of a deal. The "gotta have it" disease will bite you in the butt every single time. No one has to have any of this stuff.
At the end of the day, the item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you're not willing to go above a certain amount, then don't. Who cares is the owner is shilling. It's their loss if they end up having to buy it back. Plus, know your product. If you know your product might not make much, then don't sell it with PWCC. Sell it yourself or don't sell it at all.
At the end of the day it's all just cardboard folks.
<< <i>There were a few items I wanted to buy in some recent auctions. I caught them early so bidding was $20 or less for cards that were going to sell for $100-150 and more. Normally I would just set snipes and win or lose and never look back. Inspired by these shilling posts I thought maybe a good bidding strategy to scare away the paranoid bidder would be to bid early and very often. On most I bid the next increment and immediately got outbid by ceiling bids. Ebay makes bidding easy and fun like a video game so I started firing off bid after bid until I finally was the high bidder. On some I had to put 30-40 bids in until I was high. Then I set my snipe and wondered if I would be making somebody's next ridiculous shilling post. >>
<< <i>If you have a "gotta have it" attitude about collecting, as a buyer, 9 times out of 10 you're going to get the raw end of a deal. The "gotta have it" disease will bite you in the butt every single time. No one has to have any of this stuff.
At the end of the day, the item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you're not willing to go above a certain amount, then don't. Who cares if the owner is shilling. It's their loss if they end up having to buy it back. >>
Let me ask a simple question....Officially is the auctioneer EBAY or PWCC? Honestly, sellers like Probstein and PWCC sell thousands of cards. If you consign a card and your friend bids it up...what is PWCC supposed to do???? --Have hit men accross America to take out shillers? They can't monitor bidding patterns of thousands of cards each week.
I'm not saying we shouldn't care if this goes on...it's just what is anybody supposed to do? EBAY could care less and that is the root of the problem.
There is one thing that buyer's can do- approach the auction with what you will pay...win or lose and move on.....that's it. That's all.
Folks, we've been over this ground a number of times. I think we've all basically agreed on the following points:
1) There is probably some shilling going on in the major consignment auction house listings in Ebay
2) The operators of those houses DO have policies that state their consignors are NOT allowed to attempt to manipulate the prices their consigned items directly or indirectly. Further, they state that if they catch you doing it they will not accept further items from you.
3) The operators of those auction house have THOUSANDS of lots up at any point in time, but the Ebay platform provides them very few tools to police against such prohibited activities.
4) The easiest way to protect yourself as a bidder is to make a firm decision about what an item you are interested in is worth TO YOU, and then submit that amount as a max bid very close to the end of the auction and hope for the best. If you get it, then it was within the limit you set. If you don't get it then its because YOU determined that it was not worth that much to you.
Now, I know both of the major consignment house operators personally, and I do believe them when they say they will stop dealing with you if they catch you. They value their reputations for integrity, as their livelihood's DEPEND on that remaining clean.
The real questions are:
- what could EBay to to improve its platform such that these kinds of activities were easier to police? - what could the consigment house operators do to improve their own abilities to detect and prevent such manipulations?
Here are a few ideas that might have some merit:
1) Ebay could enhance its platform such that it would allow sellers to block specific bidders on specific items. If that were possible, then consignment operators could collect ebay usernames from consignors and configure their listings in such a way as to automatically prevent a consignor from bidding ontheir own item (I know it does not solve the alias or friend scenarios, but its a start).
2) Ebay has some pretty high-end analytics technology in place (I know this from direct and indirect professional experience with their IT department). Ebay could create bid analysis analytics and automatically push them out to large volume sellers that specifically identified potential shill bidders. That would allow the consignment operators to focus in on the likely suspects instead of having to weed it all out on their own.
3) If Ebay would open up their API a little wider the consignment operators could invest in creating their own bid analysis analytics tools and use them to identify potentially manipulative activity.
Does anyone else have any ideas to add to this list? I would be happy to take such ideas directly to Brent and Rick and see if they could use their contacts at Ebay (along with some of mine) in order to see what might be possible.
I thought the purpose of shilling was to drive up the price and NOT win the card. Can someone explain please how the examples given by the OP fit this definition?.
<< <i>Folks, we've been over this ground a number of times. I think we've all basically agreed on the following points:
1) There is probably some shilling going on in the major consignment auction house listings in Ebay
2) The operators of those houses DO have policies that state their consignors are NOT allowed to attempt to manipulate the prices their consigned items directly or indirectly. Further, they state that if they catch you doing it they will not accept further items from you.
3) The operators of those auction house have THOUSANDS of lots up at any point in time, but the Ebay platform provides them very few tools to police against such prohibited activities.
4) The easiest way to protect yourself as a bidder is to make a firm decision about what an item you are interested in is worth TO YOU, and then submit that amount as a max bid very close to the end of the auction and hope for the best. If you get it, then it was within the limit you set. If you don't get it then its because YOU determined that it was not worth that much to you.
Now, I know both of the major consignment house operators personally, and I do believe them when they say they will stop dealing with you if they catch you. They value their reputations for integrity, as their livelihood's DEPEND on that remaining clean.
The real questions are:
- what could EBay to to improve its platform such that these kinds of activities were easier to police? - what could the consigment house operators do to improve their own abilities to detect and prevent such manipulations?
Here are a few ideas that might have some merit:
1) Ebay could enhance its platform such that it would allow sellers to block specific bidders on specific items. If that were possible, then consignment operators could collect ebay usernames from consignors and configure their listings in such a way as to automatically prevent a consignor from bidding ontheir own item (I know it does not solve the alias or friend scenarios, but its a start).
2) Ebay has some pretty high-end analytics technology in place (I know this from direct and indirect professional experience with their IT department). Ebay could create bid analysis analytics and automatically push them out to large volume sellers that specifically identified potential shill bidders. That would allow the consignment operators to focus in on the likely suspects instead of having to weed it all out on their own.
3) If Ebay would open up their API a little wider the consignment operators could invest in creating their own bid analysis analytics tools and use them to identify potentially manipulative activity.
Does anyone else have any ideas to add to this list? I would be happy to take such ideas directly to Brent and Rick and see if they could use their contacts at Ebay (along with some of mine) in order to see what might be possible. >>
How about eliminating or at least restricting bid retractions?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
I would say that this rule is especially true when you're not questioning some new or anonymous seller, but a recognized brand of online auctioneer like Probstein or PWCC. Spend your energy "outing" new scam artists, not going after established sellers who have earned a rock solid reputation through thousands of tramsactions. Edmund should be careful or he might be run right off this site. >>
I'm guessing you're either incompetent, or have reading comprehension issues. The OP was posed in the form of a question. That means the OP was reaching out to others with experience about their thoughts and opinions. The OP was asking if someone was shilling an auction. PWCC is not shilling, the bidder with 3 feedback is POSSIBLY doing that. But the OP isn't sure, so he's reaching out in the form of a question.
Perhaps you should try to be less quick to judge, and try to be quicker to try and understand.
<< <i>I'm guessing you're either incompetent, or have reading comprehension issues. The OP was posed in the form of a question. That means the OP was reaching out to others with experience about their thoughts and opinions. The OP was asking if someone was shilling an auction. PWCC is not shilling, the bidder with 3 feedback is POSSIBLY doing that. But the OP isn't sure, so he's reaching out in the form of a question.
Perhaps you should try to be less quick to judge, and try to be quicker to try and understand. >>
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
I would say that this rule is especially true when you're not questioning some new or anonymous seller, but a recognized brand of online auctioneer like Probstein or PWCC. Spend your energy "outing" new scam artists, not going after established sellers who have earned a rock solid reputation through thousands of tramsactions. Edmund should be careful or he might be run right off this site. >>
I'm guessing you're either incompetent, or have reading comprehension issues. The OP was posed in the form of a question. That means the OP was reaching out to others with experience about their thoughts and opinions. The OP was asking if someone was shilling an auction. PWCC is not shilling, the bidder with 3 feedback is POSSIBLY doing that. But the OP isn't sure, so he's reaching out in the form of a question.
Perhaps you should try to be less quick to judge, and try to be quicker to try and understand. >>
I am not incompetent or stupid in any way. Nor will I devolve into name calling with another (presumably) grown man. I will summarize my opinion below, and then I'm ignoring this thread.
1. I don't know if shilling is going on 2. If it is, the consigner (like pwcc) is not to blame 3. I don't really care whether it's happening or not. Shilling only hurts irresponsible bidders with no self control
<< <i>Folks, we've been over this ground a number of times. I think we've all basically agreed on the following points:
1) There is probably some shilling going on in the major consignment auction house listings in Ebay
2) The operators of those houses DO have policies that state their consignors are NOT allowed to attempt to manipulate the prices their consigned items directly or indirectly. Further, they state that if they catch you doing it they will not accept further items from you.
3) The operators of those auction house have THOUSANDS of lots up at any point in time, but the Ebay platform provides them very few tools to police against such prohibited activities.
4) The easiest way to protect yourself as a bidder is to make a firm decision about what an item you are interested in is worth TO YOU, and then submit that amount as a max bid very close to the end of the auction and hope for the best. If you get it, then it was within the limit you set. If you don't get it then its because YOU determined that it was not worth that much to you.
Now, I know both of the major consignment house operators personally, and I do believe them when they say they will stop dealing with you if they catch you. They value their reputations for integrity, as their livelihood's DEPEND on that remaining clean.
The real questions are:
- what could EBay to to improve its platform such that these kinds of activities were easier to police? - what could the consigment house operators do to improve their own abilities to detect and prevent such manipulations?
Here are a few ideas that might have some merit:
1) Ebay could enhance its platform such that it would allow sellers to block specific bidders on specific items. If that were possible, then consignment operators could collect ebay usernames from consignors and configure their listings in such a way as to automatically prevent a consignor from bidding ontheir own item (I know it does not solve the alias or friend scenarios, but its a start).
2) Ebay has some pretty high-end analytics technology in place (I know this from direct and indirect professional experience with their IT department). Ebay could create bid analysis analytics and automatically push them out to large volume sellers that specifically identified potential shill bidders. That would allow the consignment operators to focus in on the likely suspects instead of having to weed it all out on their own.
3) If Ebay would open up their API a little wider the consignment operators could invest in creating their own bid analysis analytics tools and use them to identify potentially manipulative activity.
Does anyone else have any ideas to add to this list? I would be happy to take such ideas directly to Brent and Rick and see if they could use their contacts at Ebay (along with some of mine) in order to see what might be possible. >>
How about eliminating or at least restricting bid retractions? >>
This is well written and reasoned. I agree with the bid retraction addition. I've been on eBay for more than 15 years and never had a bid retraction. I could see it happening if I misread something or failed to notice something at first look, but it should be extremely rare.
It would be nice to see eBay implement even basic analytics that could tie together PWCC's consignor addresses against bidder addresses and report to PWCC when it detects unusual bidding patterns from bidders in the same city as the consignor. A determined shiller could always use a foreign address, but I believe it could really help. I don't think this is realistic to expect, but a thought.
I agree with everything that you wrote....but all of the things you listed as things that could help require EBAY to do.....they don't care about this at all.
I agree with everything that you wrote....but all of the things you listed as things that could help require EBAY to do.....they don't care about this at all.
Mickey71 >>
Mickey,
I understand the problem in motivating Ebay to do anything that is customer-oriented. That being said, I think this can be spun around so that they are motivated for their own interests.
Since shilling is illegal (a form of fraud I think), it probably would not be too difficult to convince Ebay that they would not want to be a party to facilitating a fraud. Especially since its going over electronic communications media which makes it wire fraud. At the volumes that it occurs it could result in a NASTY class action suit.
It would be a lot cheaper for them to spend the money to make platform changes on their side that clearly show them to be fighting the potential for such fraud.
The key is to get to the right person/department in Ebay with the message. Between my contacts in the IT side and the contacts that Breet and Rick have I would think we have a fighting chance to get the message into receptive hands.
Of course, if anyone here has additional ideas or was to get into Ebay I would love to enlist them in support of the effort.
Exactly how do you stop shilling? Stand on top of every auction (PWCC = over 3000 auctions) and monitor each bid to make sure nobody is shilling? A shill bid could be one bid. I would love to hear an answer for this.
I agree with everything that you wrote....but all of the things you listed as things that could help require EBAY to do.....they don't care about this at all.
Mickey71 >>
Mickey,
I understand the problem in motivating Ebay to do anything that is customer-oriented. That being said, I think this can be spun around so that they are motivated for their own interests.
Since shilling is illegal (a form of fraud I think), it probably would not be too difficult to convince Ebay that they would not want to be a party to facilitating a fraud. Especially since its going over electronic communications media which makes it wire fraud. At the volumes that it occurs it could result in a NASTY class action suit.
It would be a lot cheaper for them to spend the money to make platform changes on their side that clearly show them to be fighting the potential for such fraud.
The key is to get to the right person/department in Ebay with the message. Between my contacts in the IT side and the contacts that Breet and Rick have I would think we have a fighting chance to get the message into receptive hands.
Of course, if anyone here has additional ideas or was to get into Ebay I would love to enlist them in support of the effort. >>
I wish you the best of luck and hope your recommendations are taken seriously (+ the bid retractions). I have my doubts that eBay will take this seriously until there actually is a class action suit. Any lawyers on here?
Those that suggest that everyone overpays when there is shilling are not entirely correct. Sure, shilling will escalate the price, but in most cases, shilling is done early and at levels far lower than the eventual price. In rare cases, a shill will bump the final price, but I think most times, the final price reaches the final level with the shill being further down the bidding ladder.
So, if bidder A wins the lot and bidder B is the underbidder, bidder A wins at the next level over bidder B's final bid. If the shill is not bidder A or bidder B, did they have any effect on the final outcome? Doubtful, but I'll leave such discussion to the conspiracy theorists that will incorrectly insist that bidder A and bidder B would not have been forced to bid as high if not for the shill.
If anyone is concerned about being shilled, then look at the bidding history and make your own determination about who you may be bidding against. Personally, I look at an auction, figure my final level and place a snipe.
I think this whole thing is more about some wanting to throw stones rather than actually being worried about shill bidding, but then again, that's just my observation and opinion. Your mileage may vary...
The OP asks a legitimate question. He is not accusing anyone of anything. The title of the thread is very clear. If it's a topic you have personally grown tired of why even click it on much less respond? Thanks OP for bringing this forward for discussion.
The OP is not violating rule #4..period. That is ridiculous. First, he is ASKING a question, not blaming anyone, if he is even question anyone its P**P and not the person running the auctions. Its amazing people can get so wound up about a question, tell someone that if they dont like shilling, to not bid on auctions and then come on this site and open up threads they dont have to open up and call OTHERS irresponsible.
This one had some similar bidding patterns as well but I've bid that way at times so am not saying it was bid on by card owner. I will say that that is a ridiculous price. It's a POP 28 and my guess is there are more than several of these at PSA for grading right now
<< <i>i have bid one item a dozen times or so till I started using snipe. >>
If I already own a low pop card that's in an auction sometimes I'll bid to push the price up..........if I win I'm happy to have two of the same low pop card..........if I don't win that's okay -my bids MAY have helped the card sell at a higher price.
This is a fair question that needs to be answered. Why not call Brent up and ask him. He's an honest guy running a transparent auction. At least with PWCC, you can see the bidders and retractions. With the in-house auctions, you don't know sh**. Why punish a guy for running a transparent auction.
The buyer didn't pay for the card, or the consigner won it, or someone is flipping? Which is it?
Sellers probably are bidding up their cards on PWCC, but not any more so than other auctions. At least with PWCC you can see the bidders. Stay within your pice range; review VCP and pop report and you'll be safe.
I love the fact that you found the two Rose cards and brought it to this forum. Has this happened on Memory Lane? Mile High? Huggins?, REA?, Probstein? Probably so my guess. However, they don't have monthly auctions, nor easy access for archives, as far as I can tell. PWCC is selling over 4000 items a month in an auction window. Bound to have some buyers not pay, or shillers winning the card. Part of the business, unfortunately.
What I'd like to see PWCC do is restrict all bidders with retractions greater then 3% of their total bids. I do buy quite a few cards on PWCC, and if I come in second to a bidder with double digit retractions, Brent is getting a call. You should also.
In the meantime, keep posting this kind of activity, it's great for our hobby.
<< <i>Folks, we've been over this ground a number of times. I think we've all basically agreed on the following points:
1) There is probably some shilling going on in the major consignment auction house listings in Ebay
2) The operators of those houses DO have policies that state their consignors are NOT allowed to attempt to manipulate the prices their consigned items directly or indirectly. Further, they state that if they catch you doing it they will not accept further items from you.
3) The operators of those auction house have THOUSANDS of lots up at any point in time, but the Ebay platform provides them very few tools to police against such prohibited activities.
4) The easiest way to protect yourself as a bidder is to make a firm decision about what an item you are interested in is worth TO YOU, and then submit that amount as a max bid very close to the end of the auction and hope for the best. If you get it, then it was within the limit you set. If you don't get it then its because YOU determined that it was not worth that much to you.
Now, I know both of the major consignment house operators personally, and I do believe them when they say they will stop dealing with you if they catch you. They value their reputations for integrity, as their livelihood's DEPEND on that remaining clean.
The real questions are:
- what could EBay to to improve its platform such that these kinds of activities were easier to police? - what could the consigment house operators do to improve their own abilities to detect and prevent such manipulations?
Here are a few ideas that might have some merit:
1) Ebay could enhance its platform such that it would allow sellers to block specific bidders on specific items. If that were possible, then consignment operators could collect ebay usernames from consignors and configure their listings in such a way as to automatically prevent a consignor from bidding ontheir own item (I know it does not solve the alias or friend scenarios, but its a start).
2) Ebay has some pretty high-end analytics technology in place (I know this from direct and indirect professional experience with their IT department). Ebay could create bid analysis analytics and automatically push them out to large volume sellers that specifically identified potential shill bidders. That would allow the consignment operators to focus in on the likely suspects instead of having to weed it all out on their own.
3) If Ebay would open up their API a little wider the consignment operators could invest in creating their own bid analysis analytics tools and use them to identify potentially manipulative activity.
Does anyone else have any ideas to add to this list? I would be happy to take such ideas directly to Brent and Rick and see if they could use their contacts at Ebay (along with some of mine) in order to see what might be possible. >>
Thank you to to all who've written and maintained an even keel on these topics. We do appreciate folks helping us to review the bid; nothing is more important to us than maintaining an honest auction experience.
That said, time and time again we are having to defend our auctions from conspiracy theories predicated on eccentric (but honest) bidding practices, combined with an over abundance of information. eBay is the only auction venue in the world that enables users to self police the items being sold (i.e. identifying specific bidders, researching bid history, bid retractions, % of bids with a given seller, etc). This information is invaluable and should be considered, but what's transpired is a somewhat common misconception of bidding behavior. Nearly always, when a bidder places multiple bids on a single item they are simply eccentric in their bidding (i.e. the thrill of hitting the 'place bid!' button many times) and are not part of a vast conspiracy to manipulate our auctions. On that note, we have many bidders who choose to place the majority/all of their eBay bids with us, simply based on a long term relationship of trust and repeated customer service. As such, we have many bidders who show an 80% or higher bid frequency with our company and this statistic too should not be used as a smoking gun accusation of impropriety. If you consier yourself a fellow police investigator of eBay auctions, all the various informations should be considered as a whole; i.e. if a bidder bids frequently with PWCC but has many bid retractions and has no feedback from PWCC, then I would consider that a flag worth investigating further.
Practicality should prevail in these matters. Rest assured that we are vigilant in pursuing bidders who we feel are manipulating our auctions. Though rare, we have managed to suspend several dozen bidder IDs over the years and have blocked many more. We assure the collecting community that shill bidding of any kind is strictly prohibited in our auctions and consignors are not permitted to participate in the bidding on items they consign.
Specifically, we have a run of 'Bot Bottom' hockey cards which I believe raised a flag with several members of this post.... and rightly so. The bidder in question is new to eBay, has low feedback, and has participated in those auctions somewhat awkwardly by placing what I would consider an over abundance of bids. Do these facts automatically condemn the bidder in question? The answer in 'no'. Some folks simply choose to bid many, many, times, and so long as eBay maintains it's small bid increment policy, this practice will likely continue. Sure, I am skeptical of this new bidder who participates in our auctions to a large degree. That said, this new bidder has a reasonable track record, having received 5 positive feedbacks within the last month for items closely in-line with those he's bidding on with us. Ultimately we don't have the grounds to block a new bidder with this track record... everyone has to start somewhere and though we don't encourage it, there's no rule against placing many bids in a single auction.
We at PWCC fully appreciate the message boards and feel they are an invaluable 'check and balance' in the hobby. We only ask that folks continue to be fact driven, and to please forward any concerns to me directly so that we can investigate and potentially take action. In this case, a consignor of several of the items discussed in this board stumbled on this post and didn't want their items perceived in a negative light. Short of this client notifying us, we would never known about it. PLEASE reach out to us directly in addition to submitting posts. We are all on the same side... we all want to maintain the fun and honesty of the auction experience.
Comments
<< <i>Wasn't there already a thread on this? It's getting really old. . >>
It's getting old when a company states that they do their best to keep auction integrity, yet these red flags pop up ?
If you are the type that gets tired of people exposing suspicious activity, then just don't open these threads.
We must remember that there are always new members entering the hobby, reading these boards, and learning from what we write here.
There is nothing wrong with threads like this constantly popping up to inform the newbies. Just my .02
<< <i>Same relatively new bidder on both cards with very small dollar increments until he is winning. He has bid on PWCC auctions nearly 1/3 of the time. Is that the definition of shill bidding? >>
Not IMO. That kind of bidding activity is more representative of a new ebay member, which that bidder is. Shill bidding may go on quite a bit with consignment auctions, but this is not one of those times, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Wasn't there already a thread on this? It's getting really old. Learn a new tune. Anybody with half a brain knows this is a possibility with online auctions. And for the record that's all auctions, not just one seller. All you need to do is have a little personal responsibility and impulse control, and to not become too married to a card before you own it. If you set a cap of $100 on a given card, and are not willing to spend more, then when it reaches $101 you walk away. If you get sucked into overbidding, that's your problem. >>
+1
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>
<< <i>Same relatively new bidder on both cards with very small dollar increments until he is winning. He has bid on PWCC auctions nearly 1/3 of the time. Is that the definition of shill bidding? >>
Not IMO. That kind of bidding activity is more representative of a new ebay member, which that bidder is. Shill bidding may go on quite a bit with consignment auctions, but this is not one of those times, imo. >>
Agreed. And I think one should be careful besmirching somebody else's reputation without proof. Plus, even if it is shilling, my stance is we're all grow ups and making a decision to participate in an online auction has inherent risks. Here is a quote from Dave (70stoppsfanatic) on the other thread:
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Those are just a few examples, but IMHO this month's PWCC auction was quite strong. >>
Is it strong on its' own merits, or did it have a little bit of help? >>
Bobby, its an Ebay auction. We all understand that and take it for what it is.
Is there really a need to try and start this kind of trouble AGAIN??? >>
<< <i>Bid what you are willing to pay and then forget it. >>
+1
in this case, it seems the bidder in question wants these two examples real bad and may continue to boost in small increments if outbid again, so as to find the ceiling for other bidders. not unusual.
i agree with those who contend that it's about time we all try to worry less about shilling and just be pleased with a winning bid on our own terms, otherwise move on.
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
I would say that this rule is especially true when you're not questioning some new or anonymous seller, but a recognized brand of online auctioneer like Probstein or PWCC. Spend your energy "outing" new scam artists, not going after established sellers who have earned a rock solid reputation through thousands of tramsactions. Edmund should be careful or he might be run right off this site.
<< <i>check out the 1965 psa 9 pete rose that sold once in dec and then again last week. >>
ok, what's your theory? i already have 2.
1. If there is an integrity clause that you have to agree to, to not shill, and you do...then yes, that's wrong. You gave your word, so don't do it.
2. If you have a "gotta have it" attitude about collecting, as a buyer, 9 times out of 10 you're going to get the raw end of a deal. The "gotta have it" disease will bite you in the butt every single time. No one has to have any of this stuff.
At the end of the day, the item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you're not willing to go above a certain amount, then don't. Who cares is the owner is shilling. It's their loss if they end up having to buy it back. Plus, know your product. If you know your product might not make much, then don't sell it with PWCC. Sell it yourself or don't sell it at all.
At the end of the day it's all just cardboard folks.
<< <i>There were a few items I wanted to buy in some recent auctions. I caught them early so bidding was $20 or less for cards that were going to sell for $100-150 and more. Normally I would just set snipes and win or lose and never look back. Inspired by these shilling posts I thought maybe a good bidding strategy to scare away the paranoid bidder would be to bid early and very often. On most I bid the next increment and immediately got outbid by ceiling bids. Ebay makes bidding easy and fun like a video game so I started firing off bid after bid until I finally was the high bidder. On some I had to put 30-40 bids in until I was high. Then I set my snipe and wondered if I would be making somebody's next ridiculous shilling post. >>
Did it work?
------
stupid print dots
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>If you have a "gotta have it" attitude about collecting, as a buyer, 9 times out of 10 you're going to get the raw end of a deal. The "gotta have it" disease will bite you in the butt every single time. No one has to have any of this stuff.
At the end of the day, the item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you're not willing to go above a certain amount, then don't. Who cares if the owner is shilling. It's their loss if they end up having to buy it back. >>
Agree with all of this!
I'm not saying we shouldn't care if this goes on...it's just what is anybody supposed to do? EBAY could care less and that is the root of the problem.
There is one thing that buyer's can do- approach the auction with what you will pay...win or lose and move on.....that's it. That's all.
1) There is probably some shilling going on in the major consignment auction house listings in Ebay
2) The operators of those houses DO have policies that state their consignors are NOT allowed to attempt to manipulate the prices their consigned items
directly or indirectly. Further, they state that if they catch you doing it they will not accept further items from you.
3) The operators of those auction house have THOUSANDS of lots up at any point in time, but the Ebay platform provides them very few tools to police
against such prohibited activities.
4) The easiest way to protect yourself as a bidder is to make a firm decision about what an item you are interested in is worth TO YOU, and then
submit that amount as a max bid very close to the end of the auction and hope for the best. If you get it, then it was within the limit you set.
If you don't get it then its because YOU determined that it was not worth that much to you.
Now, I know both of the major consignment house operators personally, and I do believe them when they say they will stop dealing with you if they catch you.
They value their reputations for integrity, as their livelihood's DEPEND on that remaining clean.
The real questions are:
- what could EBay to to improve its platform such that these kinds of activities were easier to police?
- what could the consigment house operators do to improve their own abilities to detect and prevent such manipulations?
Here are a few ideas that might have some merit:
1) Ebay could enhance its platform such that it would allow sellers to block specific bidders on specific items. If that were possible, then
consignment operators could collect ebay usernames from consignors and configure their listings in such a way as to automatically prevent
a consignor from bidding ontheir own item (I know it does not solve the alias or friend scenarios, but its a start).
2) Ebay has some pretty high-end analytics technology in place (I know this from direct and indirect professional experience with their IT department).
Ebay could create bid analysis analytics and automatically push them out to large volume sellers that specifically identified potential shill bidders. That
would allow the consignment operators to focus in on the likely suspects instead of having to weed it all out on their own.
3) If Ebay would open up their API a little wider the consignment operators could invest in creating their own bid analysis analytics tools and use them
to identify potentially manipulative activity.
Does anyone else have any ideas to add to this list? I would be happy to take such ideas directly to Brent and Rick and see if they could use their
contacts at Ebay (along with some of mine) in order to see what might be possible.
Dave
<< <i>It must be Oswald. But he's acting alone! >>
No, no, no, there is a 2nd shiller....he places his bids on a laptop from behind the grassy knoll
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>Folks, we've been over this ground a number of times. I think we've all basically agreed on the following points:
1) There is probably some shilling going on in the major consignment auction house listings in Ebay
2) The operators of those houses DO have policies that state their consignors are NOT allowed to attempt to manipulate the prices their consigned items
directly or indirectly. Further, they state that if they catch you doing it they will not accept further items from you.
3) The operators of those auction house have THOUSANDS of lots up at any point in time, but the Ebay platform provides them very few tools to police
against such prohibited activities.
4) The easiest way to protect yourself as a bidder is to make a firm decision about what an item you are interested in is worth TO YOU, and then
submit that amount as a max bid very close to the end of the auction and hope for the best. If you get it, then it was within the limit you set.
If you don't get it then its because YOU determined that it was not worth that much to you.
Now, I know both of the major consignment house operators personally, and I do believe them when they say they will stop dealing with you if they catch you.
They value their reputations for integrity, as their livelihood's DEPEND on that remaining clean.
The real questions are:
- what could EBay to to improve its platform such that these kinds of activities were easier to police?
- what could the consigment house operators do to improve their own abilities to detect and prevent such manipulations?
Here are a few ideas that might have some merit:
1) Ebay could enhance its platform such that it would allow sellers to block specific bidders on specific items. If that were possible, then
consignment operators could collect ebay usernames from consignors and configure their listings in such a way as to automatically prevent
a consignor from bidding ontheir own item (I know it does not solve the alias or friend scenarios, but its a start).
2) Ebay has some pretty high-end analytics technology in place (I know this from direct and indirect professional experience with their IT department).
Ebay could create bid analysis analytics and automatically push them out to large volume sellers that specifically identified potential shill bidders. That
would allow the consignment operators to focus in on the likely suspects instead of having to weed it all out on their own.
3) If Ebay would open up their API a little wider the consignment operators could invest in creating their own bid analysis analytics tools and use them
to identify potentially manipulative activity.
Does anyone else have any ideas to add to this list? I would be happy to take such ideas directly to Brent and Rick and see if they could use their
contacts at Ebay (along with some of mine) in order to see what might be possible. >>
How about eliminating or at least restricting bid retractions?
<< <i>Also stole this forum rule from Dave.
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
I would say that this rule is especially true when you're not questioning some new or anonymous seller, but a recognized brand of online auctioneer like Probstein or PWCC. Spend your energy "outing" new scam artists, not going after established sellers who have earned a rock solid reputation through thousands of tramsactions. Edmund should be careful or he might be run right off this site. >>
I'm guessing you're either incompetent, or have reading comprehension issues.
The OP was posed in the form of a question. That means the OP was reaching out to others with experience about their thoughts and opinions.
The OP was asking if someone was shilling an auction. PWCC is not shilling, the bidder with 3 feedback is POSSIBLY doing that.
But the OP isn't sure, so he's reaching out in the form of a question.
Perhaps you should try to be less quick to judge, and try to be quicker to try and understand.
<< <i>I'm guessing you're either incompetent, or have reading comprehension issues.
The OP was posed in the form of a question. That means the OP was reaching out to others with experience about their thoughts and opinions.
The OP was asking if someone was shilling an auction. PWCC is not shilling, the bidder with 3 feedback is POSSIBLY doing that.
But the OP isn't sure, so he's reaching out in the form of a question.
Perhaps you should try to be less quick to judge, and try to be quicker to try and understand. >>
And now you're slandering me too. Awesome.
<< <i>
<< <i>Also stole this forum rule from Dave.
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
I would say that this rule is especially true when you're not questioning some new or anonymous seller, but a recognized brand of online auctioneer like Probstein or PWCC. Spend your energy "outing" new scam artists, not going after established sellers who have earned a rock solid reputation through thousands of tramsactions. Edmund should be careful or he might be run right off this site. >>
I'm guessing you're either incompetent, or have reading comprehension issues.
The OP was posed in the form of a question. That means the OP was reaching out to others with experience about their thoughts and opinions.
The OP was asking if someone was shilling an auction. PWCC is not shilling, the bidder with 3 feedback is POSSIBLY doing that.
But the OP isn't sure, so he's reaching out in the form of a question.
Perhaps you should try to be less quick to judge, and try to be quicker to try and understand. >>
I am not incompetent or stupid in any way. Nor will I devolve into name calling with another (presumably) grown man. I will summarize my opinion below, and then I'm ignoring this thread.
1. I don't know if shilling is going on
2. If it is, the consigner (like pwcc) is not to blame
3. I don't really care whether it's happening or not. Shilling only hurts irresponsible bidders with no self control
<< <i>Dave, you want complainers to offer constructive suggestions for solving the problem? That's not how those people operate. >>
All any of us can do is try to make things better. For those who want to try and help, I am happy to make an effort.
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>Folks, we've been over this ground a number of times. I think we've all basically agreed on the following points:
1) There is probably some shilling going on in the major consignment auction house listings in Ebay
2) The operators of those houses DO have policies that state their consignors are NOT allowed to attempt to manipulate the prices their consigned items
directly or indirectly. Further, they state that if they catch you doing it they will not accept further items from you.
3) The operators of those auction house have THOUSANDS of lots up at any point in time, but the Ebay platform provides them very few tools to police
against such prohibited activities.
4) The easiest way to protect yourself as a bidder is to make a firm decision about what an item you are interested in is worth TO YOU, and then
submit that amount as a max bid very close to the end of the auction and hope for the best. If you get it, then it was within the limit you set.
If you don't get it then its because YOU determined that it was not worth that much to you.
Now, I know both of the major consignment house operators personally, and I do believe them when they say they will stop dealing with you if they catch you.
They value their reputations for integrity, as their livelihood's DEPEND on that remaining clean.
The real questions are:
- what could EBay to to improve its platform such that these kinds of activities were easier to police?
- what could the consigment house operators do to improve their own abilities to detect and prevent such manipulations?
Here are a few ideas that might have some merit:
1) Ebay could enhance its platform such that it would allow sellers to block specific bidders on specific items. If that were possible, then
consignment operators could collect ebay usernames from consignors and configure their listings in such a way as to automatically prevent
a consignor from bidding ontheir own item (I know it does not solve the alias or friend scenarios, but its a start).
2) Ebay has some pretty high-end analytics technology in place (I know this from direct and indirect professional experience with their IT department).
Ebay could create bid analysis analytics and automatically push them out to large volume sellers that specifically identified potential shill bidders. That
would allow the consignment operators to focus in on the likely suspects instead of having to weed it all out on their own.
3) If Ebay would open up their API a little wider the consignment operators could invest in creating their own bid analysis analytics tools and use them
to identify potentially manipulative activity.
Does anyone else have any ideas to add to this list? I would be happy to take such ideas directly to Brent and Rick and see if they could use their
contacts at Ebay (along with some of mine) in order to see what might be possible. >>
How about eliminating or at least restricting bid retractions? >>
This is well written and reasoned. I agree with the bid retraction addition. I've been on eBay for more than 15 years and never had a bid retraction. I could see it happening if I misread something or failed to notice something at first look, but it should be extremely rare.
It would be nice to see eBay implement even basic analytics that could tie together PWCC's consignor addresses against bidder addresses and report to PWCC when it detects unusual bidding patterns from bidders in the same city as the consignor. A determined shiller could always use a foreign address, but I believe it could really help. I don't think this is realistic to expect, but a thought.
I agree with everything that you wrote....but all of the things you listed as things that could help require EBAY to do.....they don't care about this at all.
Mickey71
<< <i>70Topps,
I agree with everything that you wrote....but all of the things you listed as things that could help require EBAY to do.....they don't care about this at all.
Mickey71 >>
Mickey,
I understand the problem in motivating Ebay to do anything that is customer-oriented. That being said, I think this can be spun around so that they
are motivated for their own interests.
Since shilling is illegal (a form of fraud I think), it probably would not be too difficult to convince Ebay that they would not want to be a party to facilitating
a fraud. Especially since its going over electronic communications media which makes it wire fraud. At the volumes that it occurs it could result in a NASTY
class action suit.
It would be a lot cheaper for them to spend the money to make platform changes on their side that clearly show them to be fighting the potential for such
fraud.
The key is to get to the right person/department in Ebay with the message. Between my contacts in the IT side and the contacts that Breet and Rick have
I would think we have a fighting chance to get the message into receptive hands.
Of course, if anyone here has additional ideas or was to get into Ebay I would love to enlist them in support of the effort.
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>70Topps,
I agree with everything that you wrote....but all of the things you listed as things that could help require EBAY to do.....they don't care about this at all.
Mickey71 >>
Mickey,
I understand the problem in motivating Ebay to do anything that is customer-oriented. That being said, I think this can be spun around so that they
are motivated for their own interests.
Since shilling is illegal (a form of fraud I think), it probably would not be too difficult to convince Ebay that they would not want to be a party to facilitating
a fraud. Especially since its going over electronic communications media which makes it wire fraud. At the volumes that it occurs it could result in a NASTY
class action suit.
It would be a lot cheaper for them to spend the money to make platform changes on their side that clearly show them to be fighting the potential for such
fraud.
The key is to get to the right person/department in Ebay with the message. Between my contacts in the IT side and the contacts that Breet and Rick have
I would think we have a fighting chance to get the message into receptive hands.
Of course, if anyone here has additional ideas or was to get into Ebay I would love to enlist them in support of the effort. >>
I wish you the best of luck and hope your recommendations are taken seriously (+ the bid retractions). I have my doubts that eBay will take this seriously until there actually is a class action suit. Any lawyers on here?
So, if bidder A wins the lot and bidder B is the underbidder, bidder A wins at the next level over bidder B's final bid. If the shill is not bidder A or bidder B, did they have any effect on the final outcome? Doubtful, but I'll leave such discussion to the conspiracy theorists that will incorrectly insist that bidder A and bidder B would not have been forced to bid as high if not for the shill.
If anyone is concerned about being shilled, then look at the bidding history and make your own determination about who you may be bidding against. Personally, I look at an auction, figure my final level and place a snipe.
I think this whole thing is more about some wanting to throw stones rather than actually being worried about shill bidding, but then again, that's just my observation and opinion. Your mileage may vary...
Why does a bidder care what another bidders ceiling is?
Bidding an item up in order to have just barely a high bid seems to be an absolutely terrible strategy from a buyers point of view.
of why even click it on much less respond? Thanks OP for bringing this forward for discussion.
link
<< <i>i have bid one item a dozen times or so till I started using snipe. >>
If I already own a low pop card that's in an auction sometimes I'll bid to push the price up..........if I win I'm happy to have two of the same low pop card..........if I don't win that's okay -my bids MAY have helped the card sell at a higher price.
The buyer didn't pay for the card, or the consigner won it, or someone is flipping? Which is it?
Sellers probably are bidding up their cards on PWCC, but not any more so than other auctions. At least with PWCC you can see the bidders. Stay within your pice range; review VCP and pop report and you'll be safe.
I love the fact that you found the two Rose cards and brought it to this forum. Has this happened on Memory Lane? Mile High? Huggins?, REA?, Probstein? Probably so my guess. However, they don't have monthly auctions, nor easy access for archives, as far as I can tell. PWCC is selling over 4000 items a month in an auction window. Bound to have some buyers not pay, or shillers winning the card. Part of the business, unfortunately.
What I'd like to see PWCC do is restrict all bidders with retractions greater then 3% of their total bids. I do buy quite a few cards on PWCC, and if I come in second to a bidder with double digit retractions, Brent is getting a call. You should also.
In the meantime, keep posting this kind of activity, it's great for our hobby.
jab
<< <i>Folks, we've been over this ground a number of times. I think we've all basically agreed on the following points:
1) There is probably some shilling going on in the major consignment auction house listings in Ebay
2) The operators of those houses DO have policies that state their consignors are NOT allowed to attempt to manipulate the prices their consigned items
directly or indirectly. Further, they state that if they catch you doing it they will not accept further items from you.
3) The operators of those auction house have THOUSANDS of lots up at any point in time, but the Ebay platform provides them very few tools to police
against such prohibited activities.
4) The easiest way to protect yourself as a bidder is to make a firm decision about what an item you are interested in is worth TO YOU, and then
submit that amount as a max bid very close to the end of the auction and hope for the best. If you get it, then it was within the limit you set.
If you don't get it then its because YOU determined that it was not worth that much to you.
Now, I know both of the major consignment house operators personally, and I do believe them when they say they will stop dealing with you if they catch you.
They value their reputations for integrity, as their livelihood's DEPEND on that remaining clean.
The real questions are:
- what could EBay to to improve its platform such that these kinds of activities were easier to police?
- what could the consigment house operators do to improve their own abilities to detect and prevent such manipulations?
Here are a few ideas that might have some merit:
1) Ebay could enhance its platform such that it would allow sellers to block specific bidders on specific items. If that were possible, then
consignment operators could collect ebay usernames from consignors and configure their listings in such a way as to automatically prevent
a consignor from bidding ontheir own item (I know it does not solve the alias or friend scenarios, but its a start).
2) Ebay has some pretty high-end analytics technology in place (I know this from direct and indirect professional experience with their IT department).
Ebay could create bid analysis analytics and automatically push them out to large volume sellers that specifically identified potential shill bidders. That
would allow the consignment operators to focus in on the likely suspects instead of having to weed it all out on their own.
3) If Ebay would open up their API a little wider the consignment operators could invest in creating their own bid analysis analytics tools and use them
to identify potentially manipulative activity.
Does anyone else have any ideas to add to this list? I would be happy to take such ideas directly to Brent and Rick and see if they could use their
contacts at Ebay (along with some of mine) in order to see what might be possible. >>
Great post my friend. Very clear and accurate.
That said, time and time again we are having to defend our auctions from conspiracy theories predicated on eccentric (but honest) bidding practices, combined with an over abundance of information. eBay is the only auction venue in the world that enables users to self police the items being sold (i.e. identifying specific bidders, researching bid history, bid retractions, % of bids with a given seller, etc). This information is invaluable and should be considered, but what's transpired is a somewhat common misconception of bidding behavior. Nearly always, when a bidder places multiple bids on a single item they are simply eccentric in their bidding (i.e. the thrill of hitting the 'place bid!' button many times) and are not part of a vast conspiracy to manipulate our auctions. On that note, we have many bidders who choose to place the majority/all of their eBay bids with us, simply based on a long term relationship of trust and repeated customer service. As such, we have many bidders who show an 80% or higher bid frequency with our company and this statistic too should not be used as a smoking gun accusation of impropriety. If you consier yourself a fellow police investigator of eBay auctions, all the various informations should be considered as a whole; i.e. if a bidder bids frequently with PWCC but has many bid retractions and has no feedback from PWCC, then I would consider that a flag worth investigating further.
Practicality should prevail in these matters. Rest assured that we are vigilant in pursuing bidders who we feel are manipulating our auctions. Though rare, we have managed to suspend several dozen bidder IDs over the years and have blocked many more. We assure the collecting community that shill bidding of any kind is strictly prohibited in our auctions and consignors are not permitted to participate in the bidding on items they consign.
Specifically, we have a run of 'Bot Bottom' hockey cards which I believe raised a flag with several members of this post.... and rightly so. The bidder in question is new to eBay, has low feedback, and has participated in those auctions somewhat awkwardly by placing what I would consider an over abundance of bids. Do these facts automatically condemn the bidder in question? The answer in 'no'. Some folks simply choose to bid many, many, times, and so long as eBay maintains it's small bid increment policy, this practice will likely continue. Sure, I am skeptical of this new bidder who participates in our auctions to a large degree. That said, this new bidder has a reasonable track record, having received 5 positive feedbacks within the last month for items closely in-line with those he's bidding on with us. Ultimately we don't have the grounds to block a new bidder with this track record... everyone has to start somewhere and though we don't encourage it, there's no rule against placing many bids in a single auction.
We at PWCC fully appreciate the message boards and feel they are an invaluable 'check and balance' in the hobby. We only ask that folks continue to be fact driven, and to please forward any concerns to me directly so that we can investigate and potentially take action. In this case, a consignor of several of the items discussed in this board stumbled on this post and didn't want their items perceived in a negative light. Short of this client notifying us, we would never known about it. PLEASE reach out to us directly in addition to submitting posts. We are all on the same side... we all want to maintain the fun and honesty of the auction experience.
Best Regards,
Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
brent@pwccauctions.com
PWCC Marketplace
market@pwccmarketplace.com
833-333-7922