grading counterfeit cards

buildingcal

will they grade jordan or any counterfeit cards or just slab them and mark as counterfeit ? i got ripped off on ebay about 5 years ago with 2 jordan counterfeits. wanted to slab them to take to card shows to let people see what they look like and also educate the younger collectors on these cards. also have some ichiro cards.

NickM

Other than counterfeits that have real autos and are in a blue flip slab (I've seen a couple fake Rose rookies that were signed and slabbed as autos), they will not.
Just put the fake in a screwdown holder.

Nick

csakers

For educational purposes, I would like to see PSA grade counterfeit items. They would need to CLEARLY mark them as counterfeit. Additionally, it would be nice if they would list a sign/characteristic making the item counterfeit on the label. This would be helpful for people to know and help reduce some of the loss to counterfeit items.

JoeBanzai

If I am not mistaken cards deemed "questionable authenticity" are returned to the submitter and he/she is charged the grading fee.

All of these cards should be returned holdered as counterfeit. That has been paid for already.

KalineFan

Just my two cents, but I would guess they would NOT tell you what they know. If they did, that would
tell the counterfeiters what NOT to do or avoid doing or correct what they are already doing.

Tony
KalineFan

buildingcal

how do we ask for them to be slab as counterfeit for card show educational purpose? be a great teaching tool for collectors

cards651

Slabbing counterfeits is a long way off IMO. I agree with the concept that it would keep counterfeits from being sold as legit cards. But I think the last thing PSA wants is a secondary market in slabbed counterfeit cards. PSA would almost be giving respectability to the counterfeits. I'm thinking of the '86 Fleer Jordan rookie which I believe there are many out there. It could be used as a filler for many collectors that simply can't afford a low grade legit Jordan rookie. I just think PSA wants to stay far away from any chance of lending credibility to essentially a criminal activity.

JoeBanzai

Who cares what PSA wants in regards to a "secondary market in slabbed counterfeit cards"? We send in our cards and pay for a service to authenticate, grade and encapsulate our cards.

Why on earth should PSA be right in charging the full price on a card and NOT giving us the full service?

What we decide to do with them after they are returned to us is our business. In fact this "secondary market" could actually become a money maker for them, although I doubt it.

The collecting community cold benefit by seeing just how many and what cards are fakes, miscut, evid of trim, etc.

Point being if I am charged full price, why shouldn't I be able to expect full service?

cards651

I think we're mixing a couple of issues:
1. Counterfeits are different from trimmed, miscut, mis-sized cards. I believe the second group can all be graded Authentic.
2. We are paying to have real cards graded. Just because we send money in with a counterfeit card doesn't mean it gets graded. If we don't keep our end of the deal (send in real cards) we cannot demand PSA to keep their end.

PSA has a very real interest in the secondary market. If the secondary market is not vibrant and honest, there will be no need for the primary market.

JoeBanzai

We aren't "mixing issues" just like in most posts, this one has lost some focus.

PSA offers a service and charges a price for that service. In my opinion, if they keep your money for ANY CARD, be it trimmed, altered or fake, that card should be encapsulated with a grade or an explanation as to why no grade was given. That's what I am paying for.

If PSA does not charge you, then they are not required to "slab" the card. An explanation as to why would be nice.

Also (again) PSA is very busy and that's all they have to worry about, the raw cards out there, and how to get the public to get them graded.

csakers

If I am not mistaken, PSA issues a "refund" in the form of a grading voucher for any cards returned as not meeting the minimum size requirement, miscut, and other types of deformities preventing them from being graded.

My only frustration in the past has been with some 1977 Hostess panels I sent in to have graded. PSA returned them ungraded, as there was "evidence of trimming." However, I had to trim the panels to get them down to size. I resent them and they were graded. Later, they simply said a mistake was made.

Otherwise, it would be nice to have some sort of method for distributing information pertaining to counterfeit cards. . .especially the more valuable ones in the hobby. This would truly help save collectors much money in the long run.

KalineFan

Ok, now my "3 cents worth"

If you are not aware, counterfeit coins are supposed to be turned in to the U. S. secret service. There is actually a law on the books for such. While it is not strictly enforced they would certainly frown on PCGS encapsulating fake coins.

I would have to imagine that there is a similar statute or law on the books for any type of COUNTERFEIT, or FAKE items - that is why there is a law in this country to mark items that are made to look like the real thing (replicas) of such things "COPY"

Tony
KalineFan

swartz1

Do you have ichiro counterfeits?

cards651

Good points, Kaline Fan. Was not aware of (or had forgotten ) the counterfeit money law. Makes sense obviously. Grading any of these counterfeit items would give them a sense of legitimacy which would be a big mistake.

JoeBanzai

Hate to disagree with Kalinefan, but cards are NOT currency (even thought they have monetary value) and I don't by any stretch of the imagination understand how labeling something "counterfeit: gives it legitimacy, Just the opposite in my eyes, it shouts of illegitimacy.

My thoughts are if PSA collects your money they should be morally obligated to finish the job they agreed to do, but in the case of a fake they are also "sealing" the card in a holder and identifying it as counterfeit, providing the hobby with a service by labeling the card as a fake.

Now if some unscrupulous person decides to crack it out and offer it raw, without disclosing PSA's findings, it's on HIM.

Of all the threads I have seen this one seems too simple, PSA should slab the card with their findings EVERY time they collect your money. It doesn't matter what the result is, it's simply the job of a TPG in my opinion.

buildingcal

i have 2 jordan counterfeits, i would also like them to stamp the card as counterfeit. this would stop them from entering the market again a real cards

bishop

I do not collect graded cards and have no opinion about what PSA should or should not do with cards they deem counterfeits, but do think hobby recognition of a card, even a counterfeit, can give it some value. The SCD Catalog lists at least two counterfeit Topps "issues. One is what it calls Topps Promotional Issues. The Catalog pictures a miniature 62 Mantle with a blank back stamped Topps promotional issue. There were a bunch of them involving the pictures from Topps Surf books cut out and pasted to cardboard. The catalog says they have no value, but being in the Catalog collectors like me :-) had to have a couple and so bought them on ebay.

There is also a listing in the Catalog for Topps Ingots, which were pewter counterfeits of the Topps Gallery of Champions metal mini cards from 1984 to 1991

I also think some value has attached to all the various Ripken FU fakes, at least to the collectors who want examples of all the fakes to go with what they believe are the real variants.

And both Fleer and Topps had promos in 1980 and 1981 where you could send in proof of purchases and cash with your picture to get a certain amount of cards produced with your image. It was similar to the Topps 1971 Winners idea. But in the latter cases some people sent in pictures of actual players resulting in unauthorized cards with their likeness. One of them, a Fleer 1981 "test" promo sticker of Mantle is on ebay now. It is a cool item, but created by an individual collector with the help of Fleer. The Topps version resulted in unauthorized cards of at least Boggs and Hobson.

I do think hobby recognition of any kind can add value if it causes collectors to seek them out. Not necessarily a bad thing as long as the background is known to the buyer, which I realize is often not the case

csakers

The main idea is for PSA to help educate collectors regarding counterfeit cards. These cards should not receive a grade, as real cards presently do. Rather, they should simply be encased and marked as a counterfeit. Thus, preventing the card from continuing to be sold as a legit card (unless the case is cracked).

This can only serve to help the hobby.

If someone wants to collect and spend money on marked counterfeit cards, then that is their choice. At least, they would know ahead of time it is surely a counterfeit card. This is not always the case right now.

cards651

I agree with bishop. You cannot give any legitimacy to counterfeits as it only encourages more. PSA will never grade or encapsulate these cards. Everyone in the hobby should be working to eliminate them by throwing them in the garbage. 'Them' being counterfeit cards, not PSA.

JoeBanzai

<< <i>i have 2 jordan counterfeits, i would also like them to stamp the card as counterfeit. this would stop them from entering the market again a real cards >>



Rip them in half and throw them in the garbage.

To me a fake is a fake. I am not going to buy one just because it's in a PSA holder any more than I am going to buy a 1984 common PSA 2. The cards have no value.

If you think it is "cute" and want to buy it for your collection, go ahead, but I can't imagine this kind of item has actual value.

buildingcal

does anybody know when psa has addressed this issue?

csakers

Again, I am NOT looking for PSA to ever consider actually grading a counterfeit card. However, for EDUCATIONAL purposes, it would serve a huge benefit if they would simply encapsulate the card and CLEARLY mark it as a counterfeit.

Many times, collectors have paid money for what they believed to be a true card. Then, they have sent it in for grading by PSA (or another company) only to have it returned as a counterfeit. However, there is no information included with the returned card for the collector to know what to look for in the future.

How can education be a negative?

There will always be collectors who wish to purchase ANYTHING for their collections, which includes counterfeit cards. The purpose of this request is not to preclude anyone from purchasing the cards in the future, rather to educate and help collectors save money.

How about PSA add a section to their site for counterfeit items? This way, they could include scans and one or two details proving the card to be counterfeit. They would not have to include ALL details, as you are correct that the counterfeit "creators" would learn what not to do in the future.

How about this as a compromise?

hyperchipper09

<< <i>Again, I am NOT looking for PSA to ever consider actually grading a counterfeit card. However, for EDUCATIONAL purposes, it would serve a huge benefit if they would simply encapsulate the card and CLEARLY mark it as a counterfeit.

Many times, collectors have paid money for what they believed to be a true card. Then, they have sent it in for grading by PSA (or another company) only to have it returned as a counterfeit. However, there is no information included with the returned card for the collector to know what to look for in the future.

How can education be a negative?

There will always be collectors who wish to purchase ANYTHING for their collections, which includes counterfeit cards. The purpose of this request is not to preclude anyone from purchasing the cards in the future, rather to educate and help collectors save money.

How about PSA add a section to their site for counterfeit items? This way, they could include scans and one or two details proving the card to be counterfeit. They would not have to include ALL details, as you are correct that the counterfeit "creators" would learn what not to do in the future.

How about this as a compromise? >>




I would be onboard for this. Slightly O/T, I also wish they would grade 80's Star Co basketball. I feel as though PSA could lend those particular cards a little more credibility and their graders would be able to weed out any counterfeits that would show up in Newport. I know they could grade them if they really wanted to. There's at least 2 collectors/dealers that PSA could reach out to who would be willing to help authenticate 83/84, 84/85 and 85/86 Star Co if they needed extra eyes.

cards651

I had forgot about Star Co. cards. Thanks for mentioning those. I assume they are especially 'good' counterfeits in that it is difficult to tell real from fake? All I know is everyone seems to steer clear of them.

hyperchipper09

<< <i>I had forgot about Star Co. cards. Thanks for mentioning those. I assume they are especially 'good' counterfeits in that it is difficult to tell real from fake? All I know is everyone seems to steer clear of them. >>



Currently I only have 3 Star Co. cards in my personal collection: 83/84 Drexler, 84/85 Drexler, 85/85 Drexler. None raw, all BGS graded. If I were buying a high dollar/high end Star card from any of those years I'd do my best to make sure Steve Taft could get a look at it somehow. Fake Jordan Star rc's are pretty easy spot though. Centering and a surface issue are the main things to look for. Not that I can afford that one anyway

buildingcal

csakers, your comments hit it right on the nail , great job .....hope psa reads this