Ignoring the request for a properly rated hitter to simple prattle on endlessly in a pathetic attempt to demean and bash a guy who is one of the most professional players of all time just to try to get a dig in at me is so sad.
Ichiro flourished in Seattle, and yet you never heard his name in the national media. He worked his tail off endlessly trying to get better, yet you never heard a bad word from him or about him. But here you are, running your mouth just to hear yourself talk.
Did he have flaws as a hitter? Sure, who doesn't? I'd have loved to see him walk more. But there wasn't a guy more committed to his craft than anyone I can remember since Wade Boggs. To sit there and run your mouth about him being the most overrated hitter of all time without mentioning what a properly rated hitter is is the height of idiocy. But then, since its coming from you, I can't say I'm surprised.
Ichiro will take his rightful place in the hall on his first year of eligibility, then you can ramble on again then about how overrated he is. Until then? Put a sock in it. >>
More double talk. Out of one side of your mouth in regard to Arod, you say personality has no bearing on him as a player. Yet out of this side of the mouth, you are using personality traits to highlight Ichiro as a player.
Axtell, all of your points are rooted in either bias or ignorance...you can choose which.
How many more times are you going to paint yourself in a corner by contradicting and changing stances based on when it suits/doesn't suit one of your heroes? LOL Sherwin Williams or Behr...choose your new name.
All the while, you have been in a hissy because your hero Arod got busted with steroids...an event that caused you to make irrational stances, and created double standards, or contradictory statments, lol.
But Bud Selig made Arod do it, lol.
You have zero credibility. Zero.
PS: I don't care when you say negative stuff about me, because I know your other mouth means the opposite. So I am all good
I am a casual baseball fan and learned this week that Ichiro and 200 plus hits a year is overrated along with HRS AND RBIs by the #4 hitter. I am now scratching my head trying to figure out if I am watching the same game everyone else is.
<< <i>I am a casual baseball fan and learned this week that Ichiro and 200 plus hits a year is overrated along with HRS AND RBIs by the #4 hitter. I am now scratching my head trying to figure out if I am watching the same game everyone else is. >>
When people look at 200 hits, completely disregard base on balls, outs made, and then value a single the same as a 2B 3B, and HR(which hit totals does).... absolutely it is overrated.
When people look at RBI, completely disregard the number of opportunities, and completely disregard all the other offensive events that go into creating runs for a team(even though they don't credit said player with an RBI)...absolutely it is overrated.
HR's aren't being overrated. However, if one just looks at home runs, and/or gives it improper value compared to all the other offensive events(or flat out ignores other events)....then of course it can be overrated.
The good thing, is that the actual play by play date of every(except a handful of old ones) game in MLB from 1945 to now is available to give us all the information we need to value each event properly...and given the nature of baseball hitting, these precise measurements are extremely accurate in determining the value and ability of a hitter.
<< <i>I am a casual baseball fan and learned this week that Ichiro and 200 plus hits a year is overrated along with HRS AND RBIs by the #4 hitter. I am now scratching my head trying to figure out if I am watching the same game everyone else is. >>
You need to learn 262 hits is an easy accomplishment that any player in the league can do; they just choose not to.
You also need to learn that a .350+ batting average on more than 600 AB's is another easy accomplishment that has happened to all of the most mediocre hitters in the league.
Also, you need to learn that when you stack up hitters only use OPS.
<< <i>You need to learn 262 hits is an easy accomplishment that any player in the league can do; they just choose not to. >>
Ichiro's oWAR that year was 6.4, which was 10th highest in MLB. 9th in OBP. He didn't crack the top 10 in OPS. A very good season, but it's not exactly legendary, now is it? JD Drew had 104 FEWER hits than Ichiro that year and STILL had a higher oWAR.
That's why hits can be overrated. Just like 120 stolen bases would be terrible, IF he was caught stealing 110 times.
<< <i>You need to learn 262 hits is an easy accomplishment that any player in the league can do; they just choose not to. >>
Ichiro's oWAR that year was 6.4, which was 10th highest in MLB. 9th in OBP. He didn't crack the top 10 in OPS. A very good season, but it's not exactly legendary, now is it? JD Drew had 104 FEWER hits than Ichiro that year and STILL had a higher oWAR.
That's why hits can be overrated. Just like 120 stolen bases would be terrible, IF he was caught stealing 110 times. >>
You're right, 262 is a mediocre accomplishment at best. I'm sure anyone could do it.
<< <i>You're right, 262 is a mediocre accomplishment at best. >>
???
I never said that. 262 hits can be anywhere from incredible to terrible depending on the number of at-bats, and other factors. I said "A very good season, but it's not exactly legendary."
<< <i>Personally, I would consider a .372 batting average on more than 700 at bats pretty legendary. >>
Depending what your definition of legendary is, then you are probably overrating him as a hitter.
It depends on what else he did in those 700 at bats. A .414OB% and .455 SLG% equaling a 130 OPS+.
Albert Pujols had 13 seasons better than that, Miguel Cabrera eight, Lance Berkman eight, etc, etc, etc.. In the end, if by lengendary you mean the 3,087th best season, then I guess it is legendary.
Rich Dauer had one season where he struck out only 19 times in his 618 trips to the plate, an accomplishment that isn't easy to do either! If you ignore several other key factors that go into the valuation of a hitter, then he had a legendary season as well.
There isn't anything left for me to learn...except that people think irrationally when their hero isn't quite as good as they dreamed about
Sorrry buddy, Ichiro is the most overrated hitter of all-time, and every time you post about him, it just solidifies that premise more.
Especially when you claim that he could be as good as Ted Williams, but chose not to! LMFAO. I sure hope you look at his pictures in the privacy of your own room.
I didn't realize single-season OPS ranking was actually the "best seasons of all-time" list.
Tell me how many members are in the .370BA/700AB club.. there has never been a hitter who has accomplished that. How many members are in the .350/650 club? Ichiro reached that feat 3 times. I'd be interested to know what company he keeps.
<< <i>I didn't realize single-season OPS ranking was actually the "best seasons of all-time" list. >>
There are a lot of things you don't realize, lol. OPS+ is ONE of the accurate measurements to judge the exact value of a hitter. The others, say the same thing. Win Probability Added, Base Outs Runs Added, and Linear Weights are more accurate than OPS+ and they say the same thing...some even more harsh on Ichiro.
Chief Wilson had 36 triples in one season...how many people are in the 36 triple club?? Nobody! Based on your reasoning, that makes that season the best ever for a hitter, because nobody did that unique accomplishment.
There is a lot you don't understand.
I'll tell you what. Lets have you go manage a baseball team, then I want you to instruct your pitcher to WALK the first two hitters of every inning. Since you don't think walks matter, lets put it to the test
THEN, the first time one of your players hits a ball over the fence, I want you to tell him to just stay at first...a hit is a hit after all.
Then, next time the opposing team hits an infield single, since that is your criteria for an all-time season, just go ahead and let him go all the way to home since you value that the same as a HR.
All the stat stuff was pointed out in the other thread. For a fee, I can tutor you...but you couldn't afford me...and after reading all your bias and ignorance being spouted, I think it is best to let you enjoy the ignorant bliss with your hero
That club is just a trivial club like the guy who had the most triples. A couple thousand superior seasons have been produced better than Ichiro's season. Lets go manage that game
As for Rose, you proved nothing. You missed a lot of key elements and factors(not surprising of course since you think a single and a HR are worth the same, and that a Base on Balls has no value).
As stated in the other thread....
For the gentleman that compared Ichiro to Rose(and to help highlight the missing years difference), from age 27-39, Pete Rose's OPS+ was 129. Ichiro's 111, which also happens to be from age 27-39(his time in MLB).
That is a big difference, and Rose tends to be rated a little too high as a hitter himself.
Now keep in mind that Pete Rose went on to add another 3,000 plate appearances after age 39!! Looking how Ichiro's OPS+ the last three years was 86....imagine what another 3,000 plate appearances of an OPS+ of 77, is going to do to his career total if you wish to compare him to Rose
Feel free to add the missing career arc above to that too.
Rose Age 26-39 OPS+ 129. 10,223 Plate Appearances. Ichir Age 26.39 OPS+ 111. 9,278
You go on and on about that stupid club....but look at that club, in MORE plate appearances, Rose squashed Ichiro's hitting. Squashed.
Rose Age 40+ OPS+ 91. 2,955 Plate Appearances. Ichiro Age 40+ OPS+ ??. Lets see how his next 3,000 plate apperances will be. His last two years he averaged an 85 OPS+. He won't be good enough to play that long. He already is finished.
Rose Age 25 and under. OPS+ 108. 2,712 Plate appearances. Ichir Age 25 and under. OPS+. Did not play in MLB. Given the career arc of all the elite hiitters in MLB history, and how much they are off their prime years during this time(Ichiro's OPS+ shows around 104 in this time frame). Even if it is at 111(his career total), it does little to squelch the career difference between the two.
In conclusion, Rose's prime blows Ichiro's prime away. Rose Old man years will do the same. Rose's young man years is an unknown, but giving Ichiro's best case scenario, it makes little difference in the gap between the two. Ichiro's OPS+ could be anywhere from 0-115....IF, and a big IF, he was able to get drafted to begin with, or become a full-time starter to begin with. Had he started five years prior with the Mariners he would have been a reserve player.
<< <i>You keep mistaking the Single-Season OPS+ list as the "Best Season by a Player" list.
By that measure Pat Burrell had a better 2007 season than Ichiro did in 2001. LOL >>
EDITED TO ADD. My mistake, I compared him to Ichiro's 262 hit season!
Pat BUrrell OB% .400. Ichiro .414 Par Burrell SLG% .502. Ichiro .455
Ichiro OPS+ was 130 to Burrell's 128. So the ballpark factor ended up swinging it Ichiro's favor a tad.
That is pretty darn close. You are making a case against yourself. The funny thing is, Burrell has the same career OB% as Ichiro. The one thing Ichiro is suppose to be a good at, he is only as good as Burrell. Now THAT is funny.
Again, OPS+ is quick and easy to use...but the other better measurements say the same thing.
Ichiro's best Win Probability Added season is 3.7 wins above average. The 500th best season since WWII is 4.62..so he is about 600th best since WWII. That is based on the actual play by play data in MLB history...not some foolish biased opinion like you are presenting.
Ichiro's best Linear Weights Batter Runs season is 31 runs above average.....somewhere around 750th all time best.
Finally, good ahead and do an old school approach to Ichiro's best season(his 262 hit season) and where he ranks in each category.
Batting Average 129th Hits 1st Doubles 1,500th? That is appx as he is too far down to actually count. Triples 1,700th? Again, appx due to him being too far down. Home Runs 5,000th? Base on Balls 3,800th? RBI 3,500th? Runs 800th?
Outs Made 600th Appx....which would be reverse order and be like 9,000th
So even in an old school approach, if you average those together, he is so far away from one of the best seasons it is ridiculous. You are lucky the top measures account for some of those other key factors, as the top measures would rank him higher than the old school apporach.
The funny thing is that one of his highest rankings of his attributes is Outs Made....which is not a good thing.
So logically speaking, looking at that breakdown above....would any sane person rank that season in the top 50 all time? Or anywhere near it?
I think another club that should be explored is Outs Made.
Ichiro has been in the top ten in his league in Outs Made ten times in his 13 year career. Yes 10 out of 13.
Is there any other player in history that has that bad of a ratio?
Ichiro is in some good "company" with such luminaries with the bat as:
Ozzie Smith 7 out of 19 Mark Belanger 0 out of 18 Roger Metzger 3 out of 11 Juan Pierre 7 out of 14 Larry Bowa 6 out of 16
Actually, he is the president of that company. You asked what company he keeps...well there you have it.
You see, when you play that game of ignoring huge factors(such as you are doing), you can make all sorts of clubs and companies....and Ichiro resides in a pretty dubious company there
That is why you use measurements that give the accurate values for a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, and out made....so you don't get such faulty results. The good thing about baseball hitting is that it is unique sports in that it can be measured to such a high degree of accuracy with some excellent measurements. Of course, each of those have minor faults of their own, and if you don't know how to use them in terms of career length, they can skew results as well. That aside, those minor defects are easy to live with...compared to that of the fatal flaws of the measurements you use.
Comments
<< <i>Hilarious.
Ignoring the request for a properly rated hitter to simple prattle on endlessly in a pathetic attempt to demean and bash a guy who is one of the most professional players of all time just to try to get a dig in at me is so sad.
Ichiro flourished in Seattle, and yet you never heard his name in the national media. He worked his tail off endlessly trying to get better, yet you never heard a bad word from him or about him. But here you are, running your mouth just to hear yourself talk.
Did he have flaws as a hitter? Sure, who doesn't? I'd have loved to see him walk more. But there wasn't a guy more committed to his craft than anyone I can remember since Wade Boggs. To sit there and run your mouth about him being the most overrated hitter of all time without mentioning what a properly rated hitter is is the height of idiocy. But then, since its coming from you, I can't say I'm surprised.
Ichiro will take his rightful place in the hall on his first year of eligibility, then you can ramble on again then about how overrated he is. Until then? Put a sock in it. >>
More double talk. Out of one side of your mouth in regard to Arod, you say personality has no bearing on him as a player. Yet out of this side of the mouth, you are using personality traits to highlight Ichiro as a player.
Axtell, all of your points are rooted in either bias or ignorance...you can choose which.
How many more times are you going to paint yourself in a corner by contradicting and changing stances based on when it suits/doesn't suit one of your heroes? LOL Sherwin Williams or Behr...choose your new name.
All the while, you have been in a hissy because your hero Arod got busted with steroids...an event that caused you to make irrational stances, and created double standards, or contradictory statments, lol.
But Bud Selig made Arod do it, lol.
You have zero credibility. Zero.
PS: I don't care when you say negative stuff about me, because I know your other mouth means the opposite. So I am all good
<< <i>I am a casual baseball fan and learned this week that Ichiro and 200 plus hits a year is overrated along with HRS AND RBIs by the #4 hitter. I am now scratching my head trying to figure out if I am watching the same game everyone else is. >>
When people look at 200 hits, completely disregard base on balls, outs made, and then value a single the same as a 2B 3B, and HR(which hit totals does).... absolutely it is overrated.
When people look at RBI, completely disregard the number of opportunities, and completely disregard all the other offensive events that go into creating runs for a team(even though they don't credit said player with an RBI)...absolutely it is overrated.
HR's aren't being overrated. However, if one just looks at home runs, and/or gives it improper value compared to all the other offensive events(or flat out ignores other events)....then of course it can be overrated.
The good thing, is that the actual play by play date of every(except a handful of old ones) game in MLB from 1945 to now is available to give us all the information we need to value each event properly...and given the nature of baseball hitting, these precise measurements are extremely accurate in determining the value and ability of a hitter.
<< <i>I am a casual baseball fan and learned this week that Ichiro and 200 plus hits a year is overrated along with HRS AND RBIs by the #4 hitter. I am now scratching my head trying to figure out if I am watching the same game everyone else is. >>
You need to learn 262 hits is an easy accomplishment that any player in the league can do; they just choose not to.
You also need to learn that a .350+ batting average on more than 600 AB's is another easy accomplishment that has happened to all of the most mediocre hitters in the league.
Also, you need to learn that when you stack up hitters only use OPS.
Lastly, Ichiro sucks.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>You need to learn 262 hits is an easy accomplishment that any player in the league can do; they just choose not to.
>>
Ichiro's oWAR that year was 6.4, which was 10th highest in MLB. 9th in OBP. He didn't crack the top 10 in OPS. A very good season, but it's not exactly legendary, now is it? JD Drew had 104 FEWER hits than Ichiro that year and STILL had a higher oWAR.
That's why hits can be overrated. Just like 120 stolen bases would be terrible, IF he was caught stealing 110 times.
<< <i>
<< <i>You need to learn 262 hits is an easy accomplishment that any player in the league can do; they just choose not to.
>>
Ichiro's oWAR that year was 6.4, which was 10th highest in MLB. 9th in OBP. He didn't crack the top 10 in OPS. A very good season, but it's not exactly legendary, now is it? JD Drew had 104 FEWER hits than Ichiro that year and STILL had a higher oWAR.
That's why hits can be overrated. Just like 120 stolen bases would be terrible, IF he was caught stealing 110 times. >>
You're right, 262 is a mediocre accomplishment at best. I'm sure anyone could do it.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>You're right, 262 is a mediocre accomplishment at best. >>
???
I never said that. 262 hits can be anywhere from incredible to terrible depending on the number of at-bats, and other factors. I said "A very good season, but it's not exactly legendary."
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>Personally, I would consider a .372 batting average on more than 700 at bats pretty legendary. >>
Depending what your definition of legendary is, then you are probably overrating him as a hitter.
It depends on what else he did in those 700 at bats. A .414OB% and .455 SLG% equaling a 130 OPS+.
Albert Pujols had 13 seasons better than that, Miguel Cabrera eight, Lance Berkman eight, etc, etc, etc.. In the end, if by lengendary you mean the 3,087th best season, then I guess it is legendary.
Rich Dauer had one season where he struck out only 19 times in his 618 trips to the plate, an accomplishment that isn't easy to do either! If you ignore several other key factors that go into the valuation of a hitter, then he had a legendary season as well.
There isn't anything left for me to learn...except that people think irrationally when their hero isn't quite as good as they dreamed about
Sorrry buddy, Ichiro is the most overrated hitter of all-time, and every time you post about him, it just solidifies that premise more.
Especially when you claim that he could be as good as Ted Williams, but chose not to! LMFAO. I sure hope you look at his pictures in the privacy of your own room.
Tell me how many members are in the .370BA/700AB club.. there has never been a hitter who has accomplished that. How many members are in the .350/650 club? Ichiro reached that feat 3 times. I'd be interested to know what company he keeps.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>I didn't realize single-season OPS ranking was actually the "best seasons of all-time" list. >>
There are a lot of things you don't realize, lol. OPS+ is ONE of the accurate measurements to judge the exact value of a hitter. The others, say the same thing. Win Probability Added, Base Outs Runs Added, and Linear Weights are more accurate than OPS+ and they say the same thing...some even more harsh on Ichiro.
Chief Wilson had 36 triples in one season...how many people are in the 36 triple club?? Nobody! Based on your reasoning, that makes that season the best ever for a hitter, because nobody did that unique accomplishment.
There is a lot you don't understand.
I'll tell you what. Lets have you go manage a baseball team, then I want you to instruct your pitcher to WALK the first two hitters of every inning. Since you don't think walks matter, lets put it to the test
THEN, the first time one of your players hits a ball over the fence, I want you to tell him to just stay at first...a hit is a hit after all.
Then, next time the opposing team hits an infield single, since that is your criteria for an all-time season, just go ahead and let him go all the way to home since you value that the same as a HR.
All the stat stuff was pointed out in the other thread. For a fee, I can tutor you...but you couldn't afford me...and after reading all your bias and ignorance being spouted, I think it is best to let you enjoy the ignorant bliss with your hero
As proven before Ichiro was an identical hitter to Pete Rose in virtually every regard. I value him on that level.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
As for Rose, you proved nothing. You missed a lot of key elements and factors(not surprising of course since you think a single and a HR are worth the same, and that a Base on Balls has no value).
As stated in the other thread....
For the gentleman that compared Ichiro to Rose(and to help highlight the missing years difference), from age 27-39, Pete Rose's OPS+ was 129. Ichiro's 111, which also happens to be from age 27-39(his time in MLB).
That is a big difference, and Rose tends to be rated a little too high as a hitter himself.
Now keep in mind that Pete Rose went on to add another 3,000 plate appearances after age 39!! Looking how Ichiro's OPS+ the last three years was 86....imagine what another 3,000 plate appearances of an OPS+ of 77, is going to do to his career total if you wish to compare him to Rose
Feel free to add the missing career arc above to that too.
By that measure Pat Burrell had a better 2007 season than Ichiro did in 2001. LOL
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Rose Age 26-39 OPS+ 129. 10,223 Plate Appearances.
Ichir Age 26.39 OPS+ 111. 9,278
You go on and on about that stupid club....but look at that club, in MORE plate appearances, Rose squashed Ichiro's hitting. Squashed.
Rose Age 40+ OPS+ 91. 2,955 Plate Appearances.
Ichiro Age 40+ OPS+ ??. Lets see how his next 3,000 plate apperances will be. His last two years he averaged an 85 OPS+. He won't be good enough to play that long. He already is finished.
Rose Age 25 and under. OPS+ 108. 2,712 Plate appearances.
Ichir Age 25 and under. OPS+. Did not play in MLB. Given the career arc of all the elite hiitters in MLB history, and how much they are off their prime years during this time(Ichiro's OPS+ shows around 104 in this time frame). Even if it is at 111(his career total), it does little to squelch the career difference between the two.
In conclusion, Rose's prime blows Ichiro's prime away. Rose Old man years will do the same. Rose's young man years is an unknown, but giving Ichiro's best case scenario, it makes little difference in the gap between the two. Ichiro's OPS+ could be anywhere from 0-115....IF, and a big IF, he was able to get drafted to begin with, or become a full-time starter to begin with. Had he started five years prior with the Mariners he would have been a reserve player.
<< <i>You keep mistaking the Single-Season OPS+ list as the "Best Season by a Player" list.
By that measure Pat Burrell had a better 2007 season than Ichiro did in 2001. LOL >>
EDITED TO ADD. My mistake, I compared him to Ichiro's 262 hit season!
Pat BUrrell OB% .400. Ichiro .414
Par Burrell SLG% .502. Ichiro .455
Ichiro OPS+ was 130 to Burrell's 128. So the ballpark factor ended up swinging it Ichiro's favor a tad.
That is pretty darn close. You are making a case against yourself. The funny thing is, Burrell has the same career OB% as Ichiro. The one thing Ichiro is suppose to be a good at, he is only as good as Burrell. Now THAT is funny.
Again, OPS+ is quick and easy to use...but the other better measurements say the same thing.
Ichiro's best Win Probability Added season is 3.7 wins above average. The 500th best season since WWII is 4.62..so he is about 600th best since WWII. That is based on the actual play by play data in MLB history...not some foolish biased opinion like you are presenting.
Ichiro's best Linear Weights Batter Runs season is 31 runs above average.....somewhere around 750th all time best.
Batting Average 129th
Hits 1st
Doubles 1,500th? That is appx as he is too far down to actually count.
Triples 1,700th? Again, appx due to him being too far down.
Home Runs 5,000th?
Base on Balls 3,800th?
RBI 3,500th?
Runs 800th?
Outs Made 600th Appx....which would be reverse order and be like 9,000th
So even in an old school approach, if you average those together, he is so far away from one of the best seasons it is ridiculous. You are lucky the top measures account for some of those other key factors, as the top measures would rank him higher than the old school apporach.
The funny thing is that one of his highest rankings of his attributes is Outs Made....which is not a good thing.
So logically speaking, looking at that breakdown above....would any sane person rank that season in the top 50 all time? Or anywhere near it?
The precise measures say the same thing!
<< <i>Tell me how many members are in the .370BA/700AB club.. there has never been a hitter who has accomplished that. >>
Only 4 players have ever had 700+ ABs in a season. Does Ty Cobb stink because he never got close to 700 ABs?
I think another club that should be explored is Outs Made.
Ichiro has been in the top ten in his league in Outs Made ten times in his 13 year career. Yes 10 out of 13.
Is there any other player in history that has that bad of a ratio?
Ichiro is in some good "company" with such luminaries with the bat as:
Ozzie Smith 7 out of 19
Mark Belanger 0 out of 18
Roger Metzger 3 out of 11
Juan Pierre 7 out of 14
Larry Bowa 6 out of 16
Actually, he is the president of that company. You asked what company he keeps...well there you have it.
You see, when you play that game of ignoring huge factors(such as you are doing), you can make all sorts of clubs and companies....and Ichiro resides in a pretty dubious company there
That is why you use measurements that give the accurate values for a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, and out made....so you don't get such faulty results. The good thing about baseball hitting is that it is unique sports in that it can be measured to such a high degree of accuracy with some excellent measurements. Of course, each of those have minor faults of their own, and if you don't know how to use them in terms of career length, they can skew results as well. That aside, those minor defects are easy to live with...compared to that of the fatal flaws of the measurements you use.