Houston Astros target of painfully accurate Olympic rings joke
1985fan
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"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
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They have the most overrated hitter in the history of MLB(Ichiro)...and the biggest douchebag and cheater in the history of sports...Arod.
<< <i>Seattle has had 11 winning seasons out of 37. No World Series appearances, and four playoff appearances.
They have the most overrated hitter in the history of MLB(Ichiro)...and the biggest douchebag and cheater in the history of sports...Arod. >>
Last I checked, they have neither one of those players you mentioned. They DID have Ichiro, and he was incredibly productive for a decade. They DID have Rodriguez who was also a young standout, and once he took his paycheck he took the juice.
Don't care who has been juicing on Houston Axtell...I just find it amusing how you changed your stance on steroids once Arod got caught. You say you changed your mind...but you don't budge an inch on any topic on here, let alone do a complete 180 on one like you did with steroids...a 180 that just so happened to occur after your hero got busted!
You can say you changed your mind all you want, but nobody believes it, and we all know it is because your hero got caught that caused you to double talk, lol.
Ichiro...good player, but still the most overrated hitter of all time.
Houston is at a level of futility the last three years that is pretty bad, no arguing that!
I think you should re-evaluate that statement.
<< <i>Most overrated hitter of all time?
I think you should re-evaluate that statement. >>
Quick question:
Which of these hitters are/were better hitters than Ichiro? Use either a five year peak, eight year peak, or career totals.
Biggio
Abreu
Bernie Williams
Beltran
Lance Berkman
Bagwell
Delgado
David Ortiz
Jim Edmonds
Until you know where a hitter is being rated, it is hard to claim how overrated he is.
Since people have made foolish statement as 'one of the best hitters of all-time', etc... If being the 300th(or worse) hitter of all-time, fine, not overrated. If saying he is a top 50 hitter all-time, then most overrated.
But first, looking at a few guys from his era, which of those guys were better hitters than Ichiro?
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>Arod has most likely been juicing since high school...and will reign as the biggest douche in the history of sports for a long time. >>
What's your point? His descent into douche territory didn't happen until after he signed that first Rangers contract, and really came into prominence with the enhanced stage he found himself on in NY. In Seattle? He was beloved. You trying to rewrite history doesn't change that, no matter how much keyboard mashing you do.
<< <i>Don't care who has been juicing on Houston Axtell... >>
But you should, as you bash Arod for juicing, and trying to minimize Seattle baseball, you brought up Houston making it to the world series, but without mentioning they did so on the backs of multiple PED users. Nice try, spinmeister!
<< <i>I just find it amusing how you changed your stance on steroids once Arod got caught. You say you changed your mind...but you don't budge an inch on any topic on here, let alone do a complete 180 on one like you did with steroids...a 180 that just so happened to occur after your hero got busted! >>
Blah blah blah. What *I* find amusing is your fascination with me and my posts.
<< <i> You can say you changed your mind all you want, but nobody believes it, and we all know it is because your hero got caught that caused you to double talk, lol. >>
Have you ever changed your mind about anything, ever, when you've gotten more information? Or does that fly in the face and make you incapable of dealing with the possibility of ever, ever being wrong?
<< <i>Ichiro...good player, but still the most overrated hitter of all time. >>
False. That term 'overrated' and 'underrated' are as worthless and meaningless as the term 'clutch'.
<< <i>Houston is at a level of futility the last three years that is pretty bad, no arguing that! >>
It's nearly record-setting levels of futility. Only 3 teams in HISTORY of baseball have ever had worse stretches, and there's a chance Houston takes the four year title this year. Thanks, Astros, for giving the rest of the AL West a good number of wins for free because your cheapskate owner is more interested in recouping his investment than in putting a winning product on the field!
<< <i>I would stand up to the claim "Ichiro is one of the best hitters of all time". Certainly not the best power hitter, but without a doubt one of the best hitters. Actually, solely from a hits standpoint, he is the best hitter of all time. You tell me who has more than 262 hits in a season and I'll concede that claim. >>
And there you have why he is the most overrated hitter of all-time. The above shows a complete lack of understanding of measuring hitters. I'm not even going to go into why, because I would have to go back to third grade level analysis to do so. Not worth the time, as it has already been showed conclusively enough times already.
Ichiro is not as good a hitter as those contemporaries posted above...but again, if that needs to be explained, then not worth the effort.
Axtell,
Plain and simple, Arod is a cheat. You practice hero worship with him...and no matter what you say, the ONLY reason why you changed your stance on steroids is because your hero got caught. I say again, you have never changed your stance, even an inch, on anything on this board...even when more(and better) information is presented to you...so no matter what you say, it just will not fly, because you are lying(like your hero).
As for Ichiro, like I said, until he is actually rated, can one say he is overrated or not...and that is why I started with that list of contemporaries above. Anyone who rates him above those guys in hitting is overrating him. Anyone who is rating him to an all-time type(like the guy above based on hit totals), is making him the most overrated hitter of all-time.
Ax, I'm still waiting...you said that power hitters are more important in the McGwire/Biggio thread....but when it comes to Ichiro, you say the opposite.
The reality is, classifying as power hitters or any other type of hitter, doesn't matter when evaluating hitters...as it is how many runs they create with the bat, regardless of the avenue they took to get there.
Boggs is not a power hitter, and he is NOT overrated at all, as he is an all-time type elite hitter.
Ichiro is not a power hitter, and he isn't even near the class of Boggs, and Ichiro is severely overrated.
Schmidt is a power hitter and is all-time elite
Kingman is a power hitter and is just above league average.
<< <i>
And there you have why he is the most overrated hitter of all-time. The above shows a complete lack of understanding of measuring hitters. I'm not even going to go into why, because I would have to go back to third grade level analysis to do so. Not worth the time, as it has already been showing conclusively enough times already. >>
Translation: the word 'overrated' is completely arbitrary and has no way to be proven or disproven, but instead of explaining that, I'll let my hyperbole get the better of me and I'll back it up by saying 'it's not worth my time'.
<< <i>Ichiro is not as good a hitter as those contemporaries posted above...but again, if that needs to be explained, then not worth the effort. >>
But that's not what you said. You clearly stated he is the 'most overrated hitter of all time', a statement that clearly cannot be factually backed up. You, of all people, I felt would resist the need to dip your toe into the pool of bombastic statements simply to jar another poster, but, alas, here we are.
<< <i>Axtell,
Plain and simple, Arod is a cheat. You practice hero worship with him...and no matter what you say, the ONLY reason why you changed your stance on steroids is because your hero got caught. I say again, you have never changed your stance, even an inch, on anything on this board...even when more(and better) information is presented to you...so no matter what you say, it just won't fly, because you are lying(like your hero). >>
I never changed my stance? You mean like recently when I used the word 'thug' to describe Sherman (like I did with Richie Incognito), then, when given better information that it now has a racial underscore, I changed my stance? For someone who remembers my posts better than I do, I'd have thought you'd realize that yes, I do change my mind.
<< <i>As for Ichiro, like I said, until he is actually rated, can one say he is overrated or not...and that is why I started with that list of contemporaries above. Anyone who rates him above those guys in hitting is overrating him. Anyone who is rating him to an all-time type(like the guy above based on hit totals), is making him the most overrated hitter of all-time. >>
Who was rating him ahead of or behind anyone? You're trying to prop up your failing statement of him being the 'most overrated hitter of all time' with all these strawmen arguments. NOBODY has said he's better than those guys. Yet here you are trying to say he's overrated because he's ranked ahead of them.
What I find funniest about all of this is you went out of your way to comment on something completely unrelated to the original post, in a vain and pathetic and desperate attempt to try to get shots in at me. Fire away, son, I laugh in your general direction.
For the guy above...Ted Williams never had 200 hits in a season, and he is the best hitter(or second best) of all-time. Hit totals are among the poorest evaluative methods of measuring a hitter.
You are welcome to clarify where Ichiro's hitting is rated among those contemporaries listed above...then maybe a little more clarification on where he is rated will emerge
That way, it will start to become a little easier where he is rated all-time
So have at it!
As for Arod, sorry pal, waaay too coincidental that your stance changed when you hero got caught. Considering your other irrational defenses in defense of your hero, it is pretty evident that it only changed because your hero got busted!
You change your stance based on if it will hurt/help your heroes/foes. Again, you had this big thing about power hitters being more important in the McGwire/Biggio debate...but when it comes to Ichiro you say the opposite.
Yeah, I seem to be following you on some of your posts...must be because you are getting busted with double talk, hero worship, and nonsense! I enjoy painting you into a corner like the Selig/Arod thread, or ruining your premises like when you claim that steroids don't help hitters(one of your irrational stances to exonerate Arod).
<< <i> Ichiro is not a power hitter, and he isn't even near the class of Boggs, and Ichiro is severely overrated. >>
If this is your argument why Ichiro is not a good hitter, than you're right, it isn't worth arguing.
Ichiro's 162 game average is near identical to Pete Rose (a pretty good hitter)
Ichiro
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB
162 729 676 99 216 25 7 9 55 37 8 43 69 .319 .361 .414 .775 111 280
Pete Rose
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB
162 723 639 98 194 34 6 7 60 9 7 71 52 .303 .375 .409 .784 118 262
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
For instance, Ichiro's best OPS+ is 130. Pete Rose had SIX seasons better than that 158, 152, 141, 138, 134, 132, and two equal to it 130, 130.
Through 10,000 plate apperarances Rose had an OPS+ of 127. Ichiro is at 9,200 plate appearances now, and sits at a 111 OPS+(which is simply not that good).
If you are using runs scored as your barometer, then you are going to get plenty of wrong answers. The main reality why Ichiro didn't score as many runs as he should have though, is that his OB% was actually lower than Adam Dunn's....and his extra base hits are lacking as well.
A .360 OB% from Ichiro on the Mariners, compare to Ichiro doing a .360OB% on the Red Sox means Ichiro was the same. If he would score more runs with the Red Sox, that would be because his teammates are better...not that HE was any better.
All those contemporaries listed above are better hitters...and I just picked the non-Hof type player for the most part...and there are plenty more just from his era alone that are better. He is nowhere near all-time elite hitter status. Wade Boggs? Absolutely! Rod Carew? Absolutely!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>At .3611 all time, with a bounce back season, Ichiro may catch Pat Burrell at .3613 for 415th all time in OBP%. >>
Exactly. In fact, people would say that Ichiro's job wasn't to hit Home Runs...it was to get on base. Yet, in his main 'job' he really didn't do it at an elite level at all. His SLG% is probably not even on the all-time charts as it is too low.
He's only had one season where he ranked in the top ten in MLB in OB%. People look at the hit totals, and tend to brush off the key elements of hitting(OB% and SLG%) that Ichiro didn't do very well. His OB% was good...just not elite.
As it stands, hitting wise, his career 111 OPS+ is pretty telling.
<< <i>Exactly. In fact, people would say that Ichiro's job wasn't to hit Home Runs...it was to get on base. Yet, in his main 'job' he really didn't do it at an elite level at all. His SLG% is probably not even on the all-time charts as it is too low. >>
How many players had a better career than Ichiro with a lower ops?
Obviously anyone who says he his a great hitter because of his record number of singles is overrating him. Likewise, given his defense, base running, durability and years outside North America, anyone only looking at his final hitting line will be severely underrating him. Most simply see him as a great player
I count 27 Hall-of-Famers with a lower ops than Ichiro, only one I would take ahead of him is Robin Yount
But keep on keepin on man!
Like I said, based on that stuff(and whatever Axtell says), he is the most overrated hitter of all-time.
Ax,
Where exactly do you rank him all-time in hitting?? Is he a better hitter than those guys listed?
There is YOUR opportunity to contextualize it
Or, are you afraid to make those assessments because I will find more double talk from you??
Maybe you have a poster of Arod that is occupying your thoughts.
<< <i>
I count 27 Hall-of-Famers with a lower ops than Ichiro, only one I would take ahead of him is Robin Yount >>
Are you talking hitting?
Then you should probably look at all the NON HOFers that are ahead of him...instead of just the mistake guys put in from the veterans committee, dead ball guys, middle infielders, and catchers.
How many NON- HOF hitters are ahead of him? There are nine listed on this thread...probably another 25 from his era alone. Add historica(and account for era)...how many more!?
Move on already. Good lord.
<< <i>If there are hall of camera with lower ops than ichiro then by definition those guys are more overrated than ichiro which destroys the most overrated hitter of all time argument. Done. Game over.
Move on already. Good lord. >>
Wrong.
Guys like Ozzie Smith, Luis Aparicio, and Ray Schalk are not in there for their hitting...and none of those guys with the lower OPS are EVER mentioned remotely close, as one of the best hitters ever like Ichiro is...and like the guy in this thread said about Ichiro, BEST HITTER(using hit totals as his evidence).
Still waiting....which of those hitters listed(in this thread) are better hitters than Ichiro??
You are afraid to answer because you either believe that Ichiro is better than those guys(furthering my point of him being overrated), or you are afraid to admit that they are indeed better(which would pain you too much to say because of hero worship).
You have yourself in another corner
Not only that, but Pete Rose had several advantages!
1. Ichiro entered the league when he was 27! He gave up 7 prime years to the Japanese league. How much higher would those averages be if he started at the same age as Rose?
2. Ichiro played on a much worse team (less AB's, he saw harder pitches, less men on base meant full wind-ups). It matters.
3. Ichiro played in the heart of the steroid era against some of the most competitive pitching since the dead ball era!
I honestly cannot see how Ichiro is overrated.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>What are you talking about Skin? You do realize Ichiro only had averaged 7 points less in OPS+ than Pete Rose in a 162 game season? Pete Rose is arguably one of the greatest hitters in the history in the game and Ichiro is nearly IDENTICAL in every regard in hitting. How can someone who is neck-and-neck with the greatest hitter ever be considered "overrated"?
Not only that, but Pete Rose had several advantages!
1. Ichiro entered the league when he was 27! He gave up 7 prime years to the Japanese league. How much higher would those averages be if he started at the same age as Rose?
2. Ichiro played on a much worse team (less AB's, he saw harder pitches, less men on base meant full wind-ups). It matters.
3. Ichiro played in the heart of the steroid era against some of the most competitive pitching since the dead ball era!
I honestly cannot see how Ichiro is overrated. >>
A few things, Pete Rose is NOT the greatest hitter ever...not remotely close to it. If you believe that as strong as I think you do, then you need a lot of work, and that would take waaay to much time to do.
Rose lowered all his averages by playing to such an old age. As I pointed out, wihtout Rose's old man years bringing his percentages down, they do not come close to identical. Their prime years are not even close. Rose dwarfs him. It is only the old man years that drag Rose's percentages down.
Also, Rose played in an era where offense was harder to come by, an important factor.
Ichiro did not give up 7 prime years. You are assuming Ichiro would be an all-star player at age 20. There is just a great a chance of him being an All-Star player as there him as never being drafted to begin with if he started in the states. The reality is that he would have had to break the lineup like everyone else, and probably not start till age 23...suffer some learning curves, and then hit his prime in his mid 20's.
Ichiro's first five years in MLB he averged a 125 OPS+...so even giving five more years of that, his lifetime OPS+ is still waaaaay below so many guys from his own era
Harder pitches? Really?
Less men on base?
For his career .354% of Ichiro's plate appearances were with men on base.
For his career .355% of Rose's plate appearance were with men on base.
You need to look at their era's much better too. If you are going to ignore the era and career lengths, and just use 162 game averages, then the following guys would be better than Rose:
Name...OPS+
Delgado 138
D. Wright 137
B. Giles 136
Shin Shoo Choo 134
Hafner 134
R. Howard 134
Kruk 134
Helton 133
Edmonds 132
Hanley 132
Abreu 129
M. Alou 128
Klesko 128
A host of others here too...
Rose 118
Ichiro 111
So if he is 'only' 7 OPS+ points away from Rose....look how many he is below all the guys from his own era?? You see, the career length and the era are going to severely skew a 162 game average. What is hard to understand about that?
Unless you think all those guys are better hitters than Rose too?
And again, all those guys are above 125 OPS+, so if you add five more years of 125 OP+ to Ichiro, and average it to the rest of his career, he is still waaaay below his contemporaries.
Axtell, there you have another customer putting him as the most overrated hitter of all-time
Using OPS+ to value Ichiro is statistically flawed, Ichiro never put emphasis on walks or the long-ball. Ichiro was a short game player and he was the one of the best at it (second to only Ty Cobb).
Ichiro was a star at the age of 20. It would be ignorant to ignore the fact that he missed out on 7 years in the MLB.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>Well, if you only use one stat to value a player you're bound to find a few "overrated" hitters lol
Using OPS+ to value Ichiro is statistically flawed, Ichiro never put emphasis on walks or the long-ball. Ichiro was a short game player and he was the one of the best at it (second to only Ty Cobb).
Ichiro was a star at the age of 20. It would be ignorant to ignore the fact that he missed out on 7 years in the MLB. >>
"Never put epmhasis on walks or the long ball"...may be the most ignorant baseball statement I have ever seen. I like how you just relegate those as so un-important, lol.
My friend, you have a lot more to learn in how to measure baseball hitters....there is much you are missing, so much that I don't feel like starting from square one with you really.
Axtell, there is more proof for you. You have two guys in this thread rating Ichiro about 400 spots too high all-time hitting wise. I can't imagine another player getting that much of an overrating, lol.
So, I guess I am correct...the most overrated hitter of all-time.
PS: Based on YOUR method of evaluation, I guess Bill Buckner was better than Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle too, because Buckner had more career hits than them, and didn't put emphasis on Walks and the long ball either! LMAO
And by the way, Ty Cobb's OPS+ was 168 to Ichiro 111. There is a universe separating those two hitters. It is a joke and laughable for you to even put them in the same sentence. It is all about run creation with hitting, and Ichiro's "short game playing" simply didn't create like an elite hitter. Cobb's did, because he excelled at getting on OB and SLG%. Not Ichiro. He couldn't even get on base at an elite clip, lol.
PS again. Tuffy Rhodes was a star in Japan, lol. Ichiro was lucky he got to start in Japan...he wouldn't have even got drafted growing up in the states(or realistically not breaking into MLB until age 25 if drafted in the states). So that is a benefit for him playing there!
Please find me some more overrated hitters that compiled the season BAs he did and the hit counts he did so I can learn more about overrated hitters because this topic is becoming very interesting very fast.
<< <i>It's interesting that OPS has come into the discussion when talking about Ichiro being an overrated hitter, since one of the components of OPS involves taking walks. How can you use that metric (OPS) when calling Ichiro an overrated hitter?
Please find me some more overrated hitters that compiled the season BAs he did and the hit counts he did so I can learn more about overrated hitters because this topic is becoming very interesting very fast. >>
God no, I'm not even going to bother. You are missing so much, that I am NOT starting from square one. At this point, I would direct you to a few books to get started. Find the book "Total Baseball." It has been surpassed, but it explains the basic elements of run creation and the value of a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, OUT MADE, SB, CS.
You want more, then research Tom Tango, and Win Probability Added. It gives the actual breakdown of each of those events based on the millions of play by play data in major league baseball. It is every play in every game from about 1950 to now. It will tell you exactly how much a BB is worth in MLB, how much a 1B, 2B, HR, and out made is worth.
The Base Outs metric, and the Win Probability Added metric are the two most precise hitting measurements around.
If you feel the OPS+ is bad because it counts walks...and Ichiro didn't take walks...it doesn't mean the measurement is flawed, but that Ichiro probably should have taken more walks and hit more extra base hits!!
If he wanted to just hit singles and a high batting average, then batting .380 every year would have done the trick too, then his hitting game would be all-time elite, despite lack of walks and extra base hits.
PS. None of those metrics measure fielding and positional adjusments very well(so take those portions with a grain of salt).
I get it, he didn't have a ton of doubles and doesn't meet up to all this metrics that are used to determine the best hitter on Thursday day games in the Eastern time zone when it's below 62 degrees and a certain beer vendor is working.
But, he is not overrated. He is a great hitter and a future HOFer.
Ichiro's OPS+ has been downright pitiful over the past 3 seasons, as his skills have rapidly eroded. He does not deserve to be in the HOF while guys like Ted Simmons and Tim Raines are on the outside looking in (just to name a couple).
Personally, I wouldn't necessarily call him overrated, as most people who follow the game closely ought to know he just isn't HOF worthy in the first place. Hall of very good? Yes, but HOF? Nope.
Like I said earlier, he can still catch Pat Burrell on the all time OBP% list, but he'll have to markedly improve on that putrid .297 mark he put up last season, a mark that many decent hitting pitchers in the National League would not have difficulty attaining.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>PS again. Tuffy Rhodes was a star in Japan, lol. Ichiro was lucky he got to start in Japan...he wouldn't have even got drafted growing up in the states(or realistically not breaking into MLB until age 25 if drafted in the states). So that is a benefit for him playing there! >>
You're a fool if you're going to compare Tuffy Rhodes and Ichiro. Tuffy Rhodes never had 262 hits in a season, actually no one has except for Ichiro.
You keep throwing OPS+ as an all-encompassing stat, it isn't. You keep misusing it, but you don't even realize it.
Historically, Ichiro has maintained a low BB% and low ISO (ISO is isolated power if you didn't know). Neither are a bad thing, but the combination of both will KILL an OPS+. What makes Ichiro unique (and one of the greatest hitters to ever play) is that his low BB% is not a result of a poor eye or bad patience (as it usually is), but it's a result of constant contact. Ichiro puts the ball in play more than anyone (a good thing), especially if your BABIP usually sits around .340+. OPS+ is flawed because it will take BB% and assume it is always bad to have it low, it's not, especially in Ichiro's case.
Proof of Ichiro's prowess comes in some of the more in depth metrics. Ichiro has had an 89.5 contact percentage (better than Pujols, Trout and everybody else). This is a monster number, but the metric has only been measured since 2007, if it has been measured prior Ichiro would be in the low 90's. Probably better than any player to have ever player (other than maybe Cobb).
The guy is seriously a monster. He may not have the power, but there are very few hitters to have played better than Ichiro.
OPS+ is a miserable statistic to use for Ichiro and War is heavily weighted off of OPS+.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
This is tongue-in-cheek, right? Please tell me so, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Why, because it exposes him as not being nearly as good as you believe? The foremost objective for any hitter coming up to bat is to get on base. Period. Not to put the ball in play, but to safely reach base. That is why OBP% is so much more telling (and more accurate) than batting average, which is probably the second most misconstrued stat after a pitcher's won-loss record. This is also why OBP% and SLG% and OPS and OPS+ are really the most revealing statistics by which a player's greatness (or lack thereof) can and should be judged. Sure, there are other statistics and factors like position played and WAR and stolen bases and runs created, among other advanced metrics, but the aforementioned statistics are the meat and potatoes when it comes to statistical evaluation of a baseball player. I have seen no evidence on any legitimate sabremetrical basis to suggest otherwise, at least to this point.
No one is saying that Ichiro wasn't a great hitter. He most certainly was (though he certainly is not anymore, and really hasn't been for about 4 years now, which is why I use the past tense). And while I wouldn't personally vote for him as a HOFer while more deserving candidates like Raines and Piazza are still on the ballot, I would say he does belong in the Hall of Very Good. And it is actually really rather revealing that once his skills started to decline his deficiencies became that much more apparent. A .350 BA can mask a lot, and rightfully so, but when the average declines and you're not even raching base at a 30% clip? That's when players are designated for assignment, or told to hang them up.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The facts of the matter are skin is more interested in (a) trying to get under my skin, and (b) listening to himself talk/post than he is engaging in actual discussion. If you truly wanted a discussion, and didn't want to troll me, you would have said something along the lines of 'I feel Ichiro is one of the most overrated hitters of all time, and here's why'. You would have then had to break down his fame in relation to his performance, as that would be a measure of 'overrated'.
The fact of the matter is, if anything, he's underrated. He came to this country, without playing an inning of American ball, and won ROY and MVP. His first year Seattle won a ton of games, he posted a 7.7 WAR (which was good for fourth). He'd be top 10 in WAR in position players in 6 out of his first 8 years. If he had played in a big market for baseball he would have garnered a hell of a lot more attention, but, as it was, he languished in relative obscurity in the Pacific Northwest.
I am going to be painted as a homer here by skin, but no, I wouldn't say Ichiro is overrated. He received a ton of acclaim when he first arrived, and rightfully so. He was the first position player to come from Japan, and he showed immediately he belonged. After that initial splash, he would surface again in the national media, most notably in the record setting hit year, but most of the other time? You'd be delusional to suggest he was taking much of the national stage. Throw in Seattle's playoff drought and you can't be serious if you think Ichiro has received an undue amount of attention. Which is the only thing you could tie the term 'overrated' to.
So skin, continue to blather on and on about how you feel Ichiro has ripped off the American baseball public, how he's unduly gotten his press, how the media has been so glowing in their unending coverage of him. But ignore the Seattle fanbase segment who tried to hide their racism in their calls for Ichiro to hit for power. Ignore that he was largely forgotten by the national media, and continue to sit there spouting 'overrated!' without once ever stating what that term actually means.
You may be the worst baseball analyst ever. Lol.
The discussion is about hitting.
The two absolute best and most precisenmeasurements of a hitter are Win Probabiliy Added and Base Outs Runs Added. Not those measurements that JHS is using that give singles, doubles, triples, and HR equal and improper values, lol. Not to mention how they do not correlate to the creation of runs(which is the currency of the game).
Ichiro is 259th in Win Probability Added
Ichiro is 242nd in Bse Outs Added
Ichiro is 631 is OPS+
Before one gets too excited about his 'higher than 300th rankings' in the two best measurements, those are based off the actual play by play data, which isn't available prior to 1945(so it doesn't include those players). However, OPS+ mirrors those measurements fairly well, with some differences though, and does include those players(but isn't quite as accurate as the two best).
So, when the measurements that actually measure what is important and of value for a hitter are used, Ichiro falls somewhere about 400th all-time.
Axtell, the WAR measurements 1)are not precise for defense and positional adjusments, which are included in there, and 2)You are not allowed to use WAR, because Biggio has a much better one than McGwire, and you disregarded that in that debate! SO yes, another hero worship double talk moment for you working again! LOL.
PS, playing in Japan was helpful to Ichiro's MLB stats, not hurtful. Without that experience, his stats would have suffered...not to mention probably not becoming a regular until age 25. Nobody goes around giving credit for numbers of minor league players, and that is what Japan is equal too.
So yes, JHS, Tuffy Rhodes was a stud in Japan because it isn't as good as MLB...and that is why failed players in MLB excel over there, and hitters from Japan come here and do wrose, to flat out being bad. Ichiro saw appx a 20% decline in his hitting coming over here. Japan was his minor leagues
<< <i>Not only that, but Pete Rose had several advantages!
2. Ichiro played on a much worse team (less AB's, he saw harder pitches, less men on base meant full wind-ups). It matters.
>>
Ichiro has led his league in ABs EIGHT TIMES! He's averaged 676 ABs per 162 games. Rose averaged 639. The number of hits is pretty meaningless anyway. A player that has only 162 hits can help his team more than a player with 262 hits.
Ignoring the request for a properly rated hitter to simple prattle on endlessly in a pathetic attempt to demean and bash a guy who is one of the most professional players of all time just to try to get a dig in at me is so sad.
Ichiro flourished in Seattle, and yet you never heard his name in the national media. He worked his tail off endlessly trying to get better, yet you never heard a bad word from him or about him. But here you are, running your mouth just to hear yourself talk.
Did he have flaws as a hitter? Sure, who doesn't? I'd have loved to see him walk more. But there wasn't a guy more committed to his craft than anyone I can remember since Wade Boggs. To sit there and run your mouth about him being the most overrated hitter of all time without mentioning what a properly rated hitter is is the height of idiocy. But then, since its coming from you, I can't say I'm surprised.
Ichiro will take his rightful place in the hall on his first year of eligibility, then you can ramble on again then about how overrated he is. Until then? Put a sock in it.
<< <i>Ichiro flourished in Seattle, and yet you never heard his name in the national media. >>
Well there's the biggest exaggeration I've heard in a while! MVP, Rookie of the Year, on the cover of SI. Yeah, I never heard his name mentioned!
<< <i>
<< <i>Ichiro flourished in Seattle, and yet you never heard his name in the national media. >>
Well there's the biggest exaggeration I've heard in a while! MVP, Rookie of the Year, on the cover of SI. Yeah, I never heard his name mentioned! >>
How often after that first year did that happen?
<< <i>Proof of Ichiro's prowess comes in some of the more in depth metrics. Ichiro has had an 89.5 contact percentage (better than Pujols, Trout and everybody else). This is a monster number, but the metric has only been measured since 2007, if it has been measured prior Ichiro would be in the low 90's. Probably better than any player to have ever player (other than maybe Cobb).
>>
That's a terrible metric to compare players. Some players try to crush the ball while Ichiro is all about making contact.
You aren't allowed to defend Ichiro using WAR, because in the Biggio debate you dismissed that when it was brought up that he had a higher WAR than McGwire.
So there we have here another example of homerism an idiocy coming from.
You have painted yourself in yet ANOTHER corner....you may as well change your name to Sherwin Williams or Behr!
You are nothing but a two faced fool, that is completely ignorant on sports topics. You should probably go stare at your Arod poster some more. After all, he is the reason you all of a sudden changed your stance on steroid users...because your hero got caught. LOL
<< <i>How many NON- HOF hitters are ahead of him? There are nine listed on this thread...probably another 25 from his era alone. Add historica(and account for era)...how many more!?
I wouldn't even know how to begin to count. Geronimo Berroa finished his career with a .798 ops. Greg Colbrunn was at .799 playing as many years in the Major Leagues as Ichiro. Again, anyone who uses that sort of comparison to show how poor Ichiro has been is severely underrating him. But just as most people don't look at 262 hits as the definition of one of the best hitters ever, most people don't look to a ops less than those guys to define him as comparable to them
To me, almost certainly one of the top 100 non-pitchers in baseball history. Very few would put him much higher than that, nor much lower than that. Which I see as a sign he is accurately rated, which is pretty good considering the unique nature of his career
Best right fielders in history: Ruth, Aaron, Robinson, Ott, Kaline, Clemente, Jackson, Gwynn, Winfield, Waner. After that it's players like Dwight Evans and Larry Walker. Virtually everyone seems to put Ichiro near the bottom of that list (maybe a few as high as sixth or seventh) which absolutely is an accurate ranking of him
There are 23 players in Major League history with at least 2 000 games played and an ops of over .775 after the age of 27. Obviously Ichiro is at the very bottom, but it's not a bad list to be on: Boggs .855, Yastrzemski .846, Winfield .839, Murray .824, Henderson .816, Biggio .817, Rose .790. . .
You make a ridiculous and idiotic statement that ichiro is the most overrated hitter on history then construct a strawmen about him when YOU were the first to mention him. You make no statement giving basis for your ridiculous assertion and make no statement as to who a properly rated hitter is. You then throw out some hitters again constructing strawmen and post paragraph after paragraph trying to break down Ichiro simply to irritate me.
Your obvious lack of self esteem compels you to break down athletes this way, and your complete and total inability to relate to your fellow man makes you feel each and everyone out there who doesn't agree with you is somehow beneath you and worthy of your contempt and scorn.