Options
Another counterfeit 3oz Engelhard on eBay...
dolomite
Posts: 92 ✭
121269884446
It has been added to the All Engelhard Auction Watchtower page: Auction Watchtower
Glad they are less frequently seen and all offered examples are already listed in the registry.
It has been added to the All Engelhard Auction Watchtower page: Auction Watchtower
Glad they are less frequently seen and all offered examples are already listed in the registry.
“Be so good they can't ignore you.” — Jerry Dunn
0
Comments
Auction Watchtower is a great addition to allengelhard.
The seller is samwillbuyanything.
A more accurate handle would be samwillSELLanything
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
tonedase
He (samwillbuyanything)has 282 favorable ratings.
Although 127 is not a lot of sales to base things on anymore, especially for this kind of thing.
<< <i>He has a lot of bullion for sale, I would give him the benefit of doubt he is or was unaware when he listed it. >>
I would not. Seems the fake is the only picture that he couldn't properly focus when using his camera. Coincidence? I think not.
<< <i>
<< <i>He has a lot of bullion for sale, I would give him the benefit of doubt he is or was unaware when he listed it. >>
I would not. Seems the fake is the only picture that he couldn't properly focus when using his camera. Coincidence? I think not. >>
I concur. Feedback means nothing and getting eBay off the dime on fakes has been exhaustive and a complete waste of time for many collectors.
The kingpin of Engelhard counterfeits is also listed on the watchtower page and still retains an excellent feedback record... despite many former buyers that are itching for his blood.
thanks
aps
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
I am still wondering what makes the bar in question a fake...is it the numbers????
thanks to anyone who can tell me
aps
thanks to anyone who can tell me>>>
hint...nothing is going to be said publicly because you don't even need an account to view the forums here, they are totally open to public viewing.
With that said, why give a producer of counterfeits the details of what he needs to work on to make the bars look more legit? Think about it, it'll make sense to you in short time.
<< <i>what makes you all think its a fake? I used to collect poured but no longer collect......I think all those that collect should be concerned....the chinese could easily fake this stuff >>
I have the same question. Why is this bar being declared fake? There is another thread here talking about a 5 oz Engelhard bar that's a new different type that brought a very high price. If it's the design features that make a bar counterfeit, why isn't this bar also being declared counterfeit?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i><<<I am still wondering what makes the bar in question a fake...is it the numbers????
thanks to anyone who can tell me>>>
hint...nothing is going to be said publicly because you don't even need an account to view the forums here, they are totally open to public viewing.
With that said, why give a producer of counterfeits the details of what he needs to work on to make the bars look more legit? Think about it, it'll make sense to you in short time. >>
I couldn't disagree more. You need to educate collectors as to how to authenticate these bars to put the counterfeiters out of business.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>what makes you all think its a fake? I used to collect poured but no longer collect......I think all those that collect should be concerned....the chinese could easily fake this stuff >>
I have the same question. Why is this bar being declared fake? There is another thread here talking about a 5 oz Engelhard bar that's a new different type that brought a very high price. If it's the design features that make a bar counterfeit, why isn't this bar also being declared counterfeit? >>
PerryHall, its not the design features that make this bar counterfeit. The different type of 5 T. OZ bar in the other thread lacks a serial number but is genuine. Those with experience studying the fakes can see how the impressed elements on the 3 ounce bar linked in the OP are "wrong".
Cataloging just what is wrong with the 3 oz bar (i.e. a number or letter is too large, too small, shifted left or right, etc.) would help collectors but simultaneously informs the fakers (who I expect lurk at sites like this) as to how to do a better job on the next batch. The original fakes from March 2013 are markedly inferior to the current batch.
Studying the registry of known fakes at the site linked in the OP is the best education for those interested. I review the known fakes often.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
This coming from someone who has never shown any interest in collecting said bars (eye-troll)
<< <i>How sure are we that the linked website is 100% correct? It's not the same as the producer of the bars saying they are counterfeit. >>
Good point. Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean that it's true.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>How sure are we that the linked website is 100% correct? It's not the same as the producer of the bars saying they are counterfeit.
This coming from someone who has never shown any interest in collecting said bars (eye-troll) >>
The question was directed to the mature members of the forum.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
<< <i><<<I am still wondering what makes the bar in question a fake...is it the numbers????
thanks to anyone who can tell me>>>
hint...nothing is going to be said publicly because you don't even need an account to view the forums here, they are totally open to public viewing.
With that said, why give a producer of counterfeits the details of what he needs to work on to make the bars look more legit? Think about it, it'll make sense to you in short time. >>
Good thing the coin forum doesn't share this attitude. Lot's of learning going on over there.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
<< <i>How sure are we that the linked website is 100% correct? It's not the same as the producer of the bars saying they are counterfeit. >>
First, those making the fakes will never admit they are making fakes.
Thus we cannot be absolutely certain that allengelhard is 100% correct. That said, the website is unquestionably the best resource we have to spot the fakes and to confound those producing and selling them.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>How sure are we that the linked website is 100% correct? It's not the same as the producer of the bars saying they are counterfeit. >>
I'm sure you gave this some thought before suggesting it but why would they do that, what's the benefit?
All the major auction houses have the top psychics on retainer,
They contact them on every auction , especially rare art and antique furniture...
They contact the producer (artist or maker) and ask them if its a real original piece...
I guess Da Vinci , Van Gogh , Monet and a couple others have been harder and harder to get a hold of,
I guess they get pizzed off being contacted so much...
<< <i>
<< <i>How sure are we that the linked website is 100% correct? It's not the same as the producer of the bars saying they are counterfeit. >>
I'm sure you gave this some thought before suggesting it but why would they do that, what's the benefit? >>
The same reason that some claim authentic coins are counterfeits: They THINK they are correct. Without the specifics of what makes them think the bar is counterfeit, one must be careful in taking their word for it. With all due respect to the OP, I have yet to see an explanation of why the bar in the OP is counterfeit other than someone else says it is.
As PeMe so eloquently put it, I'm not a collector of these bars and don't know if it's authentic or not. Tell me why it's not.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
<< <i>I guess if one really wanted to know, they could go to the aforementioned website and read it... >>
Is there an echo in here...
<< <i>I guess if one really wanted to know, they could go to the aforementioned website and read it... >>
Yepper, reading the website tells me it's a counterfeit. Doesn't tell me what makes it a counterfeit.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Collectors must do their own research and draw their own conclusions in this challenging environment.
<< <i>Research of the website tells me it's a counterfeit far more convincingly than the eBay listing tells me it's genuine.
Collectors must do their own research and draw their own conclusions in this challenging environment. >>
My whole point is that sharing diagnostics helps one's research.
Edited to add: it has since been pointed out to me that the linked website and research are the work of one of our forum members. Hats off to him for his research and hard work. However, I do believe that sharing the diagnostics helps others to become proficient in determining counterfeit bars themselves. My ability to better spot a counterfeit coin is a direct result of US Coin Forum members sharing their expertise.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
As it does the counterfeiters.
My ability to better spot a counterfeit coin is a direct result of US Coin Forum members sharing their expertise.
Sharing the knowledge on a totally public website helps the counterfeiters too.
Read the site and learn what process they use to determine... there is really no simple pie in the sky answer...
to become an expert takes time and costs millions of lives...everyone wants a pat answer, easy, like food stamps, welfare...
Giving counterfeiters info is laughable, they can never make an original, in any venue,
An expert will find the flaws...
Anyone actually going to buy a bar?, then maybe u can send the site any info or issues u think u may have with the bar,
Otherwise why waste everyone's time?...
Was anyone here going to buy the bar?, did anyone besides OGIM, bid on the other 5ozer?,
If not why do u care...anyone here besides OGIM and a few ( prolly less than 5, or less) others ever pay
$3,4,5,6,7,8,900 an oz or more for a silver bar?, if not y u so worried about it?...
Because some of us do buy these at times.
Because many of us come across Engelhard bars at our local B&M, coin shows, flea markets, the BST here , eBay and elsewhere on line.
Many of us buy various bars at various price points.
These bars now seem to be counterfeited on a not rare basis.
Gaining the knowledge to judge for ourselves is a goal we should all have. This type of info is often shared here on coins as Derry mentioned.
You do not have to be a specific "collector" of these bars to occasionally want to buy one if we feel like it.
As if the counterfeiting was bad enough, if the diagnostics of such bars is not shared many will simply not buy them when offered.
Less buyers, less demand/price appreciation.
The bad guys will find out what to do next by many other means besides here.
Again, why not share here via PM for those interested.
i believe the fakes will only go for capturing the big money, hence ebay and they can be viewed and linked to the allengelhard site for review, and most have 14 day returns so one has ample time to get info to site if not prevously done...
the circle of buyers/collectors although tight knit is expanding and i think that the appearance of that site will be catalyst for increasing demand...
It's already been happening for at least 2 years now, all while generic silver has been on an overall decline.
<<Lessbuyers, less demand/appreciation>>>
I'd have to disagree. Value of old pours has increased and they are harder to win on venues like eBay now. Please, take my word for it
I'd have to disagree. Value of old pours has increased and they are harder to win on venues like eBay now. Please, take my word for it "
POM, I believe you…you are in the market. I am not arguing that prices have not gone up.
What I am saying is if more were knowledgeable about these then more would feel comfortable buying/bidding on them which would increase demand/price.
Conversely, if potential buyers remain in doubt because of concerns for authenticity they will hesitate to buy/bid and this is a reduced demand which will thus not contribute to price increases which could be achieved with an educated buying public feeling more comfortable buying these and not worried about getting ripped off.
Most have stated that the fakers are getting better and better every year.
That results in a real depression of potential market prices on these wonderful bars.
JMHO as always.
That leaves knowledgeable collectors picking up key pieces while inexperienced guys are hesitant to acquire in this questionable environment.
The website does seem to do an excellent job on tracking suspect pieces and I feel is reliable for folks if they are considering a purchase. They've been very responsive and helpful in the past and I don't think would hesitate to help a collector out with specific inquires.
Photographs of the ingot SN #59031 are already illustrated in the 100 gram fake registry at allengelhard.com.
Fake 100 gram Englehard 59031
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Almost no doubt a product from our friend Mr. Campbell