1704/3 Hogmouth Taler with a twist

Zohar

Found this floating on Ebay - really really pretty 1704/3 Hogmouth Taler in PCGS MS-63.



What I didn't realize on the first go was the additional catalog "129" number to the left of the "04" date. What I have been told is that this could be part of a Museum cataloging system or an old collection numbering protocol. In a way it is quite disturbing to have someone mark the coin, on the other hand this does create intrigue as to where this one came from, which I doubt I will ever know.

Swampboy

That is an awesome Taler.
I could love it warts and all.

Iosephus

Such numberings are unfortunate, but in some sense add to the history of the piece. This medal of mine has a number in white paint on the shoulder:



However, in this case, that distinctive number helps to identify it as the plate medal for a reference book.

If you think written numbers are bad, I remember reading about ancient coins from the Gonzaga family collection formed in the 16th-17th centuries which were countermarked with an eagle punch!

Zohar

Joe what a cool medal!! Man you really know how to pick'em.

Iosephus

Thanks, Zohar!

OriginalDan

That's a great looking piece, Zohar. I don't mind the numbers at all, if the coin is nice enough for a museum, it's probably a really nice coin. See if you can find out where it came from, personally that would make the coin even more interesting.

Zohar

I wish I knew where to start...

Tibor

PCGS graded this 63 without net grading it for the "129"!?! Most likely it came
from a museum or old European collection. If you own this piece then the
research for the provence might result in an old time theft. Keep us posted.

Zohar

Why would you assume theft? Many museums or collectors sell their collections to create a budget or shift direction. Not sure why the suspicion of theft

Tibor

The ANA lost several coins by employee theft a few years ago. The ANS lost several dozen
large cents stolen by a well known researcher. Selling of a coin with the consent of the
museum or collector is not the only we find numismatic treasures in the market place.

Zohar

Didn't know about hat. Is there a website detailing such items. This one in particular came from A European dealer.

Tibor

I know of no specific web site for such info. Maybe the dealer can shed some light
on this coin for you. He may be able to show a bill of sale of some kind. I personally
do not think the coin is stolen but the "129" has brought up several issues. One
that still bothers me is the grading without any qualifiers. I would contact PCGS
for further info. Please keep us up to date!! Your collection proves what results
from hard work and intelligence to be able to financially afford such beautiful
specimens.

Icollecteverything

I think that private collectors also did this many years ago, not just museums. I have an early American State copper that has an ink number in the field.

Too bad they put it by the date on that Hogmouth. I wonder if acetone would work?

mkman123

Zohar how can a coin like that get graded MS63 instead of details? It was damaged because someone put 129 on their or am I missing something?

Zohar

Thank you, Tibor. Thanks for your support. I was thinking the same regarding reaching out to the dealer. I have seen this on many medals prior as well as graded World coins sold on heritage without any mention. Icollecteverything I agree regarding location yet will not attempt to take it off which I doubt can work after many years. Eye appeal is superb and this adds "character" to the piece...

Zohar

<< <i>Zohar how can a coin like that get graded MS63 instead of details? It was damaged because someone put 129 on their or am I missing something? >>



Not sure I would call it damaged. Quite a few instances where this has been graded. Does not clean or alter surfaces while being an acceptable form of cataloging by collectors/museums over the years

LINK1

LINK2

Zohar

Here is the ANA stolen list - LINK

Zohar

Response from the reputable European dealer - "I think it is from a private collection, but I bought this coin once from an aution house. So I do not know who owned this coin before."

Tibor

I am glad that you were able to get such a good and reliable response. Several years ago
I bought through auction 2 pieces (US) to get approximately 80% complete on a particular
series. About a year later it was proven that they were stolen. I returned the pieces but
truth be known I would not have sold the 2 coins for 10X what I had paid for them.
The rest of the collection was sold and I have not collected US since. Armand Vartian
writes a column in a leading numismatic periodical. He is a highly respected lawyer
and I believe he wrote that it is the responsibility of the buyer to find out if the
piece that they are buying is legal to own. I hope all is well in your world.

Zohar

Tibor - that's terrible. I actually now traced the same coin to the prior auction with Kunker.

Can you send me a PM or turn on yours?

Best.

EVillageProwler

<< <i>Zohar how can a coin like that get graded MS63 instead of details? It was damaged because someone put 129 on their or am I missing something? >>



If a pretty girl wrote her phone # on your hand, would you consider your hand to be damaged? It's not like the '129' was etched into the coin...

EVP

marcmoish

Nice pickup...cool story line here - wonder where it'll take you z - some deep research and you good at it will unveil the history....

TwoKopeiki

I also don't think the coin was stolen. And the reason it graded is most likely due to the fact that it was marked with something like a grease pencil that reacted with the surface. I bet it's just toning at this point.

Zohar

Upgraded this type and therefore decided to let this one go if anyone has interest, feel free to PM me.