A question for the old-timers on PCGS grading.

rec78

If memory serves me correctly (and sometimes it don't), in the early days of PCGS, I can remember when PCGS graded coins either MS63 or MS65 and there was no MS64 grade. And there may have been other MS grades added also(MS61 MS62?). MS64 came along later. My question is: were the coins that were graded during this time in rattler holders? If not, what holders were they using for them at this time? Some of the higher end 63's could possibly be 64's, so it may be worth looking at the old MS63 coins to see if an upgrade could be possible if the increase in value makes it worth it. I don't know, I may be all wet here and smoeone please correct me if I got this wrong. Did AU53 and AU58 come later also?


Thanks, Bob

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

I don't know about PCGS but I do own an NGC 2.1 Morgan dollar graded MS64...I also know it was submitted to NGC in September of 1987. Hope that helps any

Erik

oreville

rec78'

Some if us own very old PCGS pop report books from 1988 or 1989 and the pop reports will show us the distribution of the various grades.

I do seem to recall some MS-64 grades in the rattler in Morgan silver dollars and walkers.

theboz11

I have a couple fistful of PCGS Morgans in old green rattlers that are 63's ,64's and 65's. All purchase in the 80's shortly after they started.

CaptHenway

<< <i>If memory serves me correctly (and sometimes it don't), in the early days of PCGS, I can remember when PCGS graded coins either MS63 or MS65 and there was no MS64 grade. And there may have been other MS grades added also(MS61 MS62?). MS64 came along later. My question is: were the coins that were graded during this time in rattler holders? If not, what holders were they using for them at this time? Some of the higher end 63's could possibly be 64's, so it may be worth looking at the old MS63 coins to see if an upgrade could be possible if the increase in value makes it worth it. I don't know, I may be all wet here and smoeone please correct me if I got this wrong. Did AU53 and AU58 come later also?


Thanks, Bob >>




I created MS-63 and MS-67 when ANACS started grading coins in February of 1979. I am pretty sure that we were using MS-64 and MS-66 when I left there in the Summer of 1984, though I can't swear to it. PCGS started grading in 1986 using the same numbers that we were.

TD

JRocco

I believe the TPG's used the 64 grade, but in the real world of day to day collector/dealer transactions:

Brilliant Unc - 60
Choice Brilliant Unc - 63
Gem Brilliant Unc - 65
Superb Brilliant Unc - 67

LindeDad

The coins in the grades your talking about been feeding the crack-out game since they got graded.

WingedLiberty1957

I remember Unc, BU, Choice BU, and Gem BU from the 1960's

BillJones

I think that the 11 grading points existed or were in the works PCGS before came into existence. The lesser amount of numbers were around when ANACS started. I know that they used MS-60, 63 and 65. Since I never did much with the grades beyond MS-65, I'm sure about the sign posts there. I think that there was MS-67 and perhaps MS-70 although I don't any coins got that perfect grade.

Rollerman

I have a 1892O Morgan graded MS64 in an old NGC Fatty holder.
Pete

rec78

Let me rephrase it. I know that MS64 was used for old fatty and rattler slabs. I would like to know which slab was in use pre-MS64 grading. If it was a rattler, then there are still a lot of MS63 coins in existence that could grade MS64 but were not graded MS64 because PCGS was not using this grade yet. Are rattlers the oldest PCGS slabs?

Wabbit2313

PCGS has always had MS64, AU50, 53, 58. They had some slabs just graded BU for what I would think were promos, home shopping network, whatever! (I think one said "Stagecoach".)

CaptHenway

<< <i>Let me rephrase it. I know that MS64 was used for old fatty and rattler slabs. I would like to know which slab was in use pre-MS64 grading. If it was a rattler, then there are still a lot of MS63 coins in existence that could grade MS64 but were not graded MS64 because PCGS was not using this grade yet. Are rattlers the oldest PCGS slabs? >>



None. MS-64 was in use before PCGS started slabbing coins in 1986.

CaptHenway

<< <i>I think that the 11 grading points existed or were in the works PCGS before came into existence. The lesser amount of numbers were around when ANACS started. I know that they used MS-60, 63 and 65. Since I never did much with the grades beyond MS-65, I'm sure about the sign posts there. I think that there was MS-67 and perhaps MS-70 although I don't any coins got that perfect grade. >>



We did issue two or three Proof-70's.

I also gave one Barber dime an MS-69 just because it was so darn close, but after that we decided to stick with 60, 63, 65, 67 and 70.

AUandAG

Here's a rattler:

WoodenJefferson

In the mid 80's 63 was a uncirculated ugly dog, a 64 was a better looking dog and finally a 65 or higher was a show dog.

BillJones

<< <i>Let me rephrase it. I know that MS64 was used for old fatty and rattler slabs. I would like to know which slab was in use pre-MS64 grading. If it was a rattler, then there are still a lot of MS63 coins in existence that could grade MS64 but were not graded MS64 because PCGS was not using this grade yet. Are rattlers the oldest PCGS slabs? >>



The grading on a fair number of PCGS rattler holders was very (overly) conservative. That is reason why you see those MS-63 graded coins that could be graded MS-64. As to the other grades I did see a Two Cent Piece in a PCGS MS-62 rattle holder. It had a gold CAC sticker.

DennisH

I have a PCGS Pop Report from July 1988.
It lists all of the grades we have today, except 01-02-03-04-06 scores are listed together as a group rather than individually.

19Lyds

Wasn't there a certain "transition" period where assigned numeric grades coincided with popular grades such as BU Choice BU and GEM BU?

I mean, it's not like the coin world jumped all over PCGS scrambling to get their coins graded as the real power of the PCGS Grade was exactly the same as when CAC Started up.
That being, that they guaranteed the grade to the point that they would literally "buy it" from the submitter at current market prices.

In other words, the Coin Community had to be "sold" on PCGS the exact same way that CAC is selling itself. With money.

roadrunner

<< <i>Wasn't there a certain "transition" period where assigned numeric grades coincided with popular grades such as BU Choice BU and GEM BU?

I mean, it's not like the coin world jumped all over PCGS scrambling to get their coins graded as the real power of the PCGS Grade was exactly the same as when CAC Started up.
That being, that they guaranteed the grade to the point that they would literally "buy it" from the submitter at current market prices.

In other words, the Coin Community had to be "sold" on PCGS the exact same way that CAC is selling itself. With money. >>




The numerical grades that PCGS and NGC used when they first opened their doors are the same ones they use today. 64 had to be used on day one in 1986 because a coin that wasn't a MS65 certainly couldn't be called MS63.
The grey sheet at the time PCGS came out in 1986 had unc, choice unc, gem unc. It was quite well known that those represented 60/63/65. At what point they made the shift to numbers I don't know. But, it would have
occurred in the 1986-1990 period. The blue sheet came out somewhere in that 1986-1988 period as well. And it listed all the grades that PCGS used with the exception of anything higher than MS68. The CCDN might not have
even used MS67 when they first published as so few coins met those standards there was no real pricing for that market. Regardless of all the hoopla over PCGS grading in 1986, the market itself was using a 7 to 8 point MS
grading system since the mid to late 1970's. It was quite apparent from auction prices that there was nuchmore than 60, 63, 65. In fact there was much more than 60, 60+, 63+, 65, 65+ going on. I first saw that in 1975
when superb gem coins were bringing triple to quadruple MS65 prices. Those coins certainly were not 65+. You had to call them 65++ (ie 67) and 65+++ (ie 68).

coinkat

I really and truly recall the AU53 grade coming at a later time- just can not recall when. Perhaps the 1995 time frame