Are auction prices retail?
nags
Posts: 823 ✭✭✭✭
Simple question - Do you consider auction prices to be retail prices?
For example, a coin in a certain grade sells around 3 times per year on heritage. Considering the variance within the grade, are the results indicative of "full retail" and should they be indicative of "full retail."
For example, a coin in a certain grade sells around 3 times per year on heritage. Considering the variance within the grade, are the results indicative of "full retail" and should they be indicative of "full retail."
0
Comments
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Basically, none of us really know what the "retail" price of any given coin is - we only guess
<< <i>auction plus the juice equals retail >>
I agree with this.
Retail is retail.
Wholesale is wholesale.
Auction is auction.
<< <i>auction plus the juice equals retail >>
Many auction coins are resold at a higher price. Would that be super retail?
<< <i>Basically, none of us really know what the "retail" price of any given coin is - we only guess
+1
and my addition(s). link 1 - link 2
.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>public auctions are just another form of retail. >>
No, they're not.
<< <i>
<< <i>public auctions are just another form of retail. >>
No, they're not. >>
Sure they are, bidders determine the price on individual items just as they do with what they are willing to pay in the store. Stores set their prices on what the market will pay. Wholesalers sell quantity at below market/retail price. Are ebay prices retail?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
my answer to the OP question: Sometimes!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>to me, the term "retail" implies "end user", as in "for keeping, not bought with the [immediate] intention of re-selling."
my answer to the OP question: Sometimes! >>
Best answer yet.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>public auctions are just another form of retail. >>
If that was really the case then why do so many wholesale and mid-tier dealers "shop" at auctions only to flip those coins right away to other dealers or retail clients? In many cases these guys can get better pricing at the
auctions vs. the bourse floor. The net seller's and buyer's fees come out of the seller's pocket....not the winning bidder. When I was dealing full time in 1988-1989 the majority of my purchases came out of auctions including
Stacks, B&M, and Superior. Seemed like every couple of weeks there was an auction going on somewhere that I would attend.
Ebay prices aren't always retail either. When I was buying on ebay from 2002-2009 most everything I bought was to be flipped. Whatever fell through the cracks I'd pick up. My best purchase was an ogh PCGS PF66 1857 dime
that sold for 30% under wholesale. No one bid on the coin but me. And I got it for way under my max bid. Flipped it for 40%. The bad news was that the coin was an amazing toner and was upgraded to PCGS MS67 where the
next guy flipped it for a 100% profit. And the guy after that got another 20-30% in retailing it. So what's that about Ebay only being a retail site? I consider anything I buy at auction or on Ebay to be wholesale...or I wouldn't buy
it. How much of Newman "retail" was instantly flipped? I'd bet quite a bit of it. Same was true in Eliasberg and Pittman. You're probably paying retail if you don't already know you're paying wholesale. And if it turns out you
can't the sell the item for a profit....then you did pay something over wholesale....lol.
<< <i>
<< <i>auction plus the juice equals retail >>
Many auction coins are resold at a higher price. Would that be super retail? >>
Then again, some can't be resold for the auction price.
<< <i>to me, the term "retail" implies "end user", as in "for keeping, not bought with the [immediate] intention of re-selling."
my answer to the OP question: Sometimes! >>
Right.
From Google:
re·tail
ˈrēˌtāl
noun
1.the sale of goods to the public in relatively small quantities for use or consumption rather than for resale.
So, since both collectors and dealers buy at auction, the answer is: sometimes. But I think the OP is not so much asking whether an auction is a retail sale, but whether the prices realized are a retail price. And the answer to that would have to be either: "who knows?" or "sometimes."
I asked him what his price was. He said "I want retail for it." I then said, "so quote me retail, I have no problems paying "retail" if I like a coin." Then he says, well, "I really want "retail-retail" for it." HUH????
OK, I then said, "I can pay retail-retail too....give me a price." The conversation tailed off from there and he never did quote a price. Wholesale, retail, retail-retail.....it's all a frame of mind....or a frame of reference.
<< <i>If that was really the case then why do so many wholesale and mid-tier dealers "shop" at auctions only to flip those coins right away to other dealers or retail clients? In many cases these guys can get better pricing at the auctions vs. the bourse floor. >>
It probably has more to do with better selection in one location than it does with pricing. The coin market is very limited - a coin auction provides one stop shopping with a good selection for both retailers and collectors. On-line auctions are a different animal, it has a lot to do with pricing.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>
<< <i>public auctions are just another form of retail. >>
If that was really the case then why do so many wholesale and mid-tier dealers "shop" at auctions only to flip those coins right away to other dealers or retail clients? In many cases these guys can get better pricing at the
auctions vs. the bourse floor. The net seller's and buyer's fees come out of the seller's pocket....not the winning bidder. When I was dealing full time in 1988-1989 the majority of my purchases came out of auctions including
Stacks, B&M, and Superior. Seemed like every couple of weeks there was an auction going on somewhere that I would attend. >>
Hasn't the climate of the game changed dramatically since that time? I can sit on my couch and bid on exquisite coins in an on-line auction. Was that opportunity afforded to the average collector 30 years ago? Hasn't the line between auction and retail shrunk considerably?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>public auctions are just another form of retail. >>
No, they're not. >>
Sure they are, bidders determine the price on individual items just as they do with what they are willing to pay in the store. Stores set their prices on what the market will pay. Wholesalers sell quantity at below market/retail price. Are ebay prices retail? >>
No, they're not just another form of retail.
Retail prices are when the merchant sets the price for sale to a buyer.
Wholesale prices are when a merchant sets the price for sale to another merchant.
Auction prices are determined by one or more potential buyers.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>public auctions are just another form of retail. >>
If that was really the case then why do so many wholesale and mid-tier dealers "shop" at auctions only to flip those coins right away to other dealers or retail clients? In many cases these guys can get better pricing at the
auctions vs. the bourse floor. The net seller's and buyer's fees come out of the seller's pocket....not the winning bidder. When I was dealing full time in 1988-1989 the majority of my purchases came out of auctions including
Stacks, B&M, and Superior. Seemed like every couple of weeks there was an auction going on somewhere that I would attend. >>
Hasn't the climate of the game changed dramatically since that time? I can sit on my couch and bid on exquisite coins in an on-line auction. Was that opportunity afforded to the average collector 30 years ago? Hasn't the line between auction and retail shrunk considerably? >>
Not really. You're not seeing that coin in hand while sitting at your computer. And odds are you'll overpay if anything. Those viewing lots in person still have the advantage. While a lot of my purchases back then were raw,
the same concept is in play today when buying solid to high end quality in slabs while avoiding the lower end stuff. And even if you and seller both agree on the quality you can still beat them if you know the market better on that
piece and where to go with it assuming the price is not prohibitive You can't do this sitting at home except for complete no-brainers and mind-numbing cherry picks on varieties, etc. If you're bidding at home for "exquisite" coins
then my hat's off to you. I don't know anyone who can do this consistently via photos.....or even holders with labels, stickers, etc. Though if you asked me to do it I'd ensure I only bid exquisite money on coins that were eye
popping as well as stickered. The climate for trading coins is technically no different today than it was 30 years ago. The sharper buyers beat out the weaker sellers. CAC has raised the red flag identifying just how voluminous the
low end market really is. And that might actually be a negative influence on many buyers as they look to avoid anything not stickered....while paying 10-40% premiums for those stickers.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>public auctions are just another form of retail. >>
No, they're not. >>
Sure they are, bidders determine the price on individual items just as they do with what they are willing to pay in the store. Stores set their prices on what the market will pay. Wholesalers sell quantity at below market/retail price. Are ebay prices retail? >>
No, they're not just another form of retail.
Retail prices are when the merchant sets the price for sale to a buyer.
Wholesale prices are when a merchant sets the price for sale to another merchant.
Auction prices are determined by one or more potential buyers. >>
How does a merchant determine what price to sell to a buyer? Does he not have to find that price equilibrium where the buyer is willing to pay it? He can ask for moon money, but until he comes down to earth his "asking" price is irrelevent. Consider goods that do not sell at retail - does the retailer not have to lower price until a buyer is willing to pay it? As long as a market is competitive, the consumer always determines hammer price - even at the grocery store.
I'm not a reselling merchant of the wholesale goods I buy at Sam's or Costco, yet I pay less than retail. Why is that? Hint - volume.
The difference between retail and auction is when the price is set. Whether the price works its way UP or DOWN does not keep it from being a retail price.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>public auctions are just another form of retail. >>
No, they're not. >>
Sure they are, bidders determine the price on individual items just as they do with what they are willing to pay in the store. Stores set their prices on what the market will pay. Wholesalers sell quantity at below market/retail price. Are ebay prices retail? >>
No, they're not just another form of retail.
Retail prices are when the merchant sets the price for sale to a buyer.
Wholesale prices are when a merchant sets the price for sale to another merchant.
Auction prices are determined by one or more potential buyers. >>
How does a merchant determine what price to sell to a buyer? Does he not have to find that price equilibrium where the buyer is willing to pay it? He can ask for moon money, but until he comes down to earth his "asking" price is irrelevent. Consider goods that do not sell at retail - does the retailer not have to lower price until a buyer is willing to pay it? As long as a market is competitive, the consumer always determines hammer price - even at the grocery store.
I'm not a reselling merchant of the wholesale goods I buy at Sam's or Costco, yet I pay less than retail. Why is that? Hint - volume.
The difference between retail and auction is when the price is set. I consider auctions to be "retail haggling." >>
I'm not sure I can state it any more simple that I already have.
Retail = retail.
Wholesale = wholesale.
Auction prices = auction prices.
<< <i>dollarsandcents - Is there a correlation between retail and auction? >>
I dunno.
auctions are indicative of the maximum dollar amount that a unique coin was able to command on a unique day. nothing more, noting less.
Dealers usually won't bid on items at auction beyond the point where they think they can turn a profit. Even with grades and stickers coins aren't really fungible so it's impossible to establish true "retail" and "wholesale" prices for any given coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>auction plus the juice equals retail >>
I agree with this. >>
Me too.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
- Jim
If a dealer buys it, it's wholesale.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>auctions are indicative of the maximum dollar amount that a unique coin was able to command on a unique day. nothing more, noting less. >>
Assuming no collusion or multiple buyers teaming up to reduce the competition.....thereby helping to ensure an attractive wholesale price for the Team.
Auction prices = high bid + buyer's fee. That's the ONLY thing we know.
Collectors when bidding on a specific coin have the advantage of researching prior bid results, which are very good in this business, whereas the dealer/speculator has to consider all opportunities available at the auction, and only their quick on their feet knowledge will allow a buy below "market price".
OINK
Of course profit should be, or is typically the intent behind the buyer's motives (if he's savvy in the market), as well as the seller's. The buyer is either HOLDING, or FLIPPING the coin The collector is keeping it. Call them flippers paying top dollar, to retail it to top collectors. But , in essence it is RISK ON and the keen eye/ deep pockets will almost always win. One learns how to buy what works for their collection or inventory, at a price that makes cents on the dollar, sometimes…. and sometimes makes no sense at all.
A numismatist knows how to tell a good coin, even if he never buys. A collector knows what he WANTS to buy and realizes it's retail because of his desire. A dealer knows the collector's mind and is highly schooled in marketing and numismatics.
(as usual, my opinion)
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
To judge the true trend of auctions on an item one needs to look at the last, low, average, and high prices.
If PR64 barber halves consistently trade at auction from $1350-$1700 depending on looks (which it does), then greysheet will hopefully reflect that somehow in its pricing. (I.E. $1550- which it does).
If a collector wins a stunning pr64 for $1000 does that mean its wholesale?
If a collector wins a stunning pr64 for $1000 does that mean its retail?
If a collector wins a dog of a pr64 for $1000 does that mean its wholesale?
If a collector wins a dog of a coin for $1000 does that mean its retail?
If a collector wins a stunning pr64 for $2000 does that mean its wholesale?
If a collector wins a stunning pr64 for $2000 does that mean its retail?
If a collector wins a dog of a pr64 for $2000 does that mean its wholesale?
If a collector wins a dog of a coin for $2000 does that mean its retail?
The same can be said if the winning bidder is a dealer.
The key is how the coin looks and the knowledge the winning bidder has about the coin.
Top bid at auction to me is on a case by case as each coin looks different. PQ coins deserve more money and they tend to bring it.
Determining each coin and what its value is comes down to each bidder.
Sometimes bidders get carried away on ugly dogs and sometimes stunning gems fall through the crack.
So- summation: depends on the above
<< <i> A numismatist knows how to tell a good coin, even if he never buys. A collector knows what he WANTS to buy and realizes it's retail because of his desire. A dealer knows the collector's mind and is highly schooled in marketing and numismatics. (as usual, my opinion) >>
Yep. You are spot on.
- Jim
With respect to an auction, consider the lot and the participants. That combination can produce a vastly different outcome and that venue is just not the same as a retail setting.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.