<< <i>OK, here we are...the copyright info was on the bottom flap like the one in David's scan, but there is NO product code on either flap. That makes me wonder now if these were official Topps products or not, or if is truly some kind of "test" pack put out in very limited numbers by Topps. Any theories? >>
Tim I have two theories:
1) The 1972 Blue box was a re-design of the 1971 box. Perhaps by error of omission they forgot the product code (though EVERY Topps package from that era ALWAYS had one, so this is at best a long-shot IMO).
2) It's not an original Topps item
Topps had standardized their processes and came up with a product code for every package way back before 1972. Every piece that they ever came up with went through their standard process. Even the "trial marketing" pieces had product codes. How likely was it that this one just "happened" not to get one?
Other than a printing error of omission (which I view as a VERY remote possibility given that proofs would have also been involved and required approval prior to volume production), this is a major yellow flag for me.
And when you look at some of the other items pictured in that REA link, there are some weird packagings showing in there with other items too. How many "wax-packs-in-rack" (not trays) have you ever seen from Topps before in the late 1970s and early 1980s in ANY sport?
I will not straight out condemn these items, but with all of the irregularities I would suggest that they should at least be viewed with some serious skepticism.
Thanks for posting. My 1970 cello box has same product code, too. Unfortunately, the 2 1972 jumbo cellos I have are in holders without the outer boxes and I don't have a raw one to compare it to. If anyone here has a raw 1972 cello box, that would be very useful info to check as far as whether there is a product code on the standard 72 cello box (i'd be shocked if there weren't). I'm also wondering now, too, if the box I have is actually a 1971 box, as those did specify a card count and Moran did post scans earlier in this thread of 71 50-card football cellos, so the card count precedent is there.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think I have a few of them. Let me try and dig them up and I'll see if we can get to the bottom of this. >>
Thanks, David. I would find it pretty odd that someone would go through all the trouble of counterfeiting an item like this--especially since the goal of a resealer is to NOT raise red flags, so why not just reseal normal 72 cello packs?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
This is just a guess, but with no logo, the color being slightly off, no product code perhaps these are private re-packagings (kind of like the grocery cellos but done at a later date after the illegitimacy of these had been uncovered) that were deliberately boxed similarly to make them appear more legitimate (without violating Topps logo copyright and thus actually break a law in doing it)?
I think I have a few of them. Let me try and dig them up and I'll see if we can get to the bottom of this. >>
Thanks, David. I would find it pretty odd that someone would go through all the trouble of counterfeiting an item like this--especially since the goal of a resealer is to NOT raise red flags, so why not just reseal normal 72 cello packs? >>
I can't imagine it's counterfeit. It's also interesting that you can clearly see in the pics how much thicker the 50 cent box is...as it would have to be to hold that many cards.
I think I have a few of them. Let me try and dig them up and I'll see if we can get to the bottom of this. >>
Thanks, David. I would find it pretty odd that someone would go through all the trouble of counterfeiting an item like this--especially since the goal of a resealer is to NOT raise red flags, so why not just reseal normal 72 cello packs? >>
I can't imagine it's counterfeit. It's also interesting that you can clearly see in the pics how much thicker the 50 cent box is...as it would have to be to hold that many cards. >>
I would like to believe it is legitimate for baseball, but there are starting to be a lot of anomalies to explain away:
- Topps standardized their product development and release processes, and yet we are to believe no product code made it onto the supersized box (which is actually most like the 1971 box that had one) but somehow it did make it onto the normal 1972 box. It is certainly possible that Topps has an error of omission on this packaging, but its a remote possibility.
- No Topps logo on the front of the box where the normal 1972 box has it. Instead its like the 1971 box and has the card count there. Any chance we can see the sides of the box too? The 1971 boxes had a logo on the side and rear.
- Color of the box is not quite the same as either of the 1971 or 1972 normal examples (and I have a bunch of them to compare). Maybe its an enhancement from a scanner, and maybe its not. No way to be sure.
- Economically the pricing makes no sense. What company with any common sense would offer a kid (who probably doesn't have much money to being with) 50 cards for 50 cents when they also offer a packaging of 30 cards for 25 cents? Even 8 years old kids know they get more cards for their 50 cents (and extra gum too) by buying the smaller packs. If so, then you would expect a lot of the 50 cent packs to have gone unsold. So why have we seen so few of them?
- Other items in the REA lot that that was pictured have never-before seen packaging variations too.
And of course we KNOW there are the bogus grocery cellos for that era and that there is at least one person out there who has managed to create authentic looking cellos from the 1960s and 1970s before (although his usually had stars showing).
This does not mean for sure that the 1972 50-card cello is no good, but you would need to provide a little more hard evidence that indicates this packaging was used for baseball. Right now all we've seen is a miscolored box, without a logo on the front, without a product code on the flap, priced in a way that makes no sense and a picture of an outer box and an inner yellow pack box from football that seems to indicate a 50-card packaging may have been used in that sport in the same year.
As much as we all want it to be good, the evidence is stacking up very heavily against it being so. Maybe it was produced BEFORE the normal 1973 cellos and then they decided not to offer it (none of us remember buying them back then) and go with the "normal" 1972 cello we all are familiar with? That's about the only explanation that would even start to make sense and address the anomalies if it is legitimate. They produced the first run and decided that the pricing model (and printing omission issues) were enough justification to scrap the idea and go with the 25 cent cello instead? Otherwise, if they had stayed with the 50 cent version they would have fixed the printing issues and never offered the 25 cent version (to prevent killing of the 50 cent cello sales which would generate a better margin for Topps).
At best I can see this packaging as an unreleased one that Topps produced but never offerred commercially.
Anyone have any idea what series the pack shown in the REA link is from based on the first card? If it's a first series card then this might suggest the unreleased packaging theory could be in the right vein.
- No Topps logo on the box. Sorry, but that is NOT something any company is going to miss! The only reason not to put the logo on the box is if you are copying it and don't want to actually infringe on the copyright and be in a position that you can be accused of breaking the law.
David, there is a Topps logo on both the back and side of the box (see scans). The grocery cellos were wrapped in simple clear cello which anyone could reproduce, but this empty box has all the hallmarks of an authentic Topps product with the exception of the product code. Paul Maul also raises an interesting point as the the increased thickness of this box which would be necessary to house 20 extra cards. That makes sense, too, in the same context as to why Topps racks from this era had the thicker seams between sections due to higher card counts.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Now that we see the side and rear logos that helps. See the update I made in my last post.
I am now open to the idea that when Topps started planning for 1972 baseball they initially started down a path of a pricing shift. Perhaps there was a "first run" of these 50-cent packs (which could explain the missing product code if the run was done early on), after which they decided against the new pricing model and reverted to the typical 1972 pack we are all familiar with.
Certainly I cant imagine Toops would have ever released the 50-cent pack in the market without a product code (they would have fixed that first). Further, they never would have released a 25-cent pack into the market to compete against the 50-cent pack (it would kill 50-cent pack sales in nothing flat) UNLESS they were seeing a massive sales decline in the cellos due to the doubling in the price. But the missing product code leads me to think that the "to boost sales release of a 25-cent pack after" is not accurate. They would have corrected the product code issue before going into mass production if they were taking the 50-cent pack to market.
There are still a lot of ifs, but I am open to the idea of this being an internal sample of a packaging that they never released.
I am open to the idea of this being an internal sample of a packaging that they never released.
I think this theory is on the right track--72 cellos (real ones, anyway) are scarce enough, but if 50-card packs had been released for distribution, I truly believe we'd have seen some examples by now on the secondary market. I wonder if the cards in the 72 50-card box in the REA auction were even sealed. The one pack that shows the card through the window looks short, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The card on the front of the pack in the REA auction is an Oriole. It looks like a pitcher from the pose.
If we can figure out who it is (assuming it is a real card and not just a mock-up) and then determine the series, that would help support the theory if it is a 1st series card). Also, if it is a "mock up" (a card that was never produced and released) that too could support the theory. If it was a later series card that would be less supportive of the thoery (assuming it was a sealed pack, which you may be correct on that these samples were never sealed).
I checked and it looks very much to be:
128 1972 TOPPS EDDIE WATT
Definitely a first series card (series 1 had cards numbered between 1-132).
So we have a 1st series card in a box we believe to be an early sample for 1972 (with major change in price and card-count from 1971, so it certainly would be reasonable to prototype it in limited quantities). That would seem to fit the theory pretty well. And if it was an internal sample then it's possible they did not have a product code for it yet (perhaps they only assigned production codes after giving it the go-ahead blessing, that seems reasonable to assume).
And since they were working from the 1971 blue box, it would also make sense that they changed it as little as possible for the prototype to get some idea of what the pack would look like on the store countertop. So they change the "30" to "50" and basically leave everything else as it was in 1971 so that they don't have to invest a lot of effort and money in creating a true design for a box they are not sure they want to bring to market.
That offers reasonable explanations for just about everything (other than the other strange packagings in the REA lot photo). Perhaps if we could discover from REA that the consignor of that lot was a former Topps employee it would add some additional strength to the theory.
Your synopsis sounds very plausible indeed. And the 71 connection is further bolstered by Moran's posting of the 50-card 71 football cello packs earlier in this thread, which were produced between the 71 baseball and the 72 baseball cellos. I can also certainly see why these 50-card packs would not have been very well received, as they were more expensive (per card) than 71 packs, and one of the reasons that 71 packs in general are tougher to find is that Topps scaled back production that year after a disappointing year in 1970 due in large part to the price hike in both wax and cello packs, from 5c and 10c, respectively, to 10c and 25c per pack.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
1. According to the auction text, in the auction, the cards were loose in the boxes and not cello wrapped.
2. I wrote earlier in the thread:
"That's definitely an updated version of the back of the '72 box, not '71. The "one stick bubble gum" tag line lines up differently below the "cards" line in the '71."
In fact, the front of the 50 card box is also more similar to the regular '72 box than the '71 box. In both the '72 box and 50 card box, the "B" in "bubble gum" is to the left of the "D" in "cards." On the '71 box, the "B" is to the right of the "D."
So the box does NOT appear to be a reworking of the 1971 box, but does have some characteristics of the '72 box as well.
I'm also leaning toward this box being a mock up that was not officially distributed. If you look at jmoran's football cello display box, it is a proof that also lacks a product code. These boxes could have been cut from a similar proof sheet and put together.
If you look at the picture I provided above of the box of empty early 1970s cello pack inner boxes, it turns out that there is also a 25 cent yellow football box in there (also one that I purchased as a child).
It turns out that the product code on the bottom flap ends in 1, so its a 1971. So it looks like Topps was using the 1971 boxes in coming up with prototypes for 1972. That would explain John's football proof sheet similarly to my theory for the baseball cellos.
Back in those days, a price bump from 25 cents to 50 cents was a big deal for a kid. I dont recall getting more than a single cello pack at a time when I bought cards as a 6-9 year old. And rack packs with 54 cards were still only 39 cents. How a 50 cent cello had any chance of reversing the sales decline already being experienced (probably attributable to the move from nickle packs to dime packs) was likely realized pretty quickly so they decided to halt it early on in the conceptual phase.
My feeling is that this box was produced sometime between 1971 and 1972. The 50-card cello count is very likely a riff off the 50-card football cello pack that John posted a pic of earlier, as the card count and pack price graphics on front share characteristics with 1971 boxes. The card count for 1972 cellos was not specified on the outside of the box. My gut feeling is that these boxes were produced on a very limited basis as a prototype or proof or some kind but were never incorporated into general production or distribution.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It's possible this prototype box was created from the 1971 box (with the changes I indicated) and then the regular 1972 cello box was created by making changes to the 50 card box. So the 50 card box would be kind of an intermediate design between the two regular boxes.
In fact it kind of makes sense. The 50 card design could have been viewed as a price increase from 1971. Most Topps price increases incorporated an increased card count. But then the change was abandoned in favor of the normal design which would at least still be a volume discount over three wax packs.
This box was probably in a Topps employees collection as I believe like you guys that these never went into production. I find it hard to believe anyone would bother faking this box. Topps probably toyed with the idea of changing the pricing for the 1972 cellos, but then thought the better of it and never went forward this these boxes. I agree with Dave (PaulMaul) that this type of thing is fasinating and makes for a great discussion.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>So it looks like Topps was using the 1971 boxes in coming up with prototypes for 1972. That would explain John's football proof sheet similarly to my theory for the baseball cellos.
>>
Sorry Dave, I understand now and agree. These 50 count boxes were planned for 1972 but ultimately abandoned in favor of what we're familiar with.
<< <i>This box was probably in a Topps employees collection as I believe like you guys that these never went into production. I find it hard to believe anyone would bother faking this box. Topps probably toyed with the idea of changing the pricing for the 1972 cellos, but then thought the better of it and never went forward this these boxes. I agree with Dave (PaulMaul) that this type of thing is fasinating and makes for a great discussion. >>
Would have been cool to see an actual 50-card baseball cello pack, too~almost a rack pack in a cello pack, LOL!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>This box was probably in a Topps employees collection as I believe like you guys that these never went into production. I find it hard to believe anyone would bother faking this box. Topps probably toyed with the idea of changing the pricing for the 1972 cellos, but then thought the better of it and never went forward this these boxes. I agree with Dave (PaulMaul) that this type of thing is fasinating and makes for a great discussion. >>
Would have been cool to see an actual 50-card baseball cello pack, too~almost a rack pack in a cello pack, LOL! >>
That's probably why the idea was abandoned. A rack pack had four more cards for 11 cents less! Someone at Topps failed accounting.
The probably were considering changing to 50 cent cellos for all sports sometime in the latter part of the 2nd half of 1971.
They came up with mock-ups based on the existing 1971 packaging (minus the product codes as previously discussed).
Then they changed their minds and reverted to 25 cent cellos in 1972 that we are all familiar with
My 1971 yellow football box exhibits all of the same similarities to the picture of the box on the cover of John's scan, as the 1971 baseball boxes have to the 50-card box that Tim posted.
I don't know if I have a 1972 inner cello pack box to compare, but I'd bet it is yellow, has a product code ending in 2, and has the Topps logo in the place that the number of cards used to be in the 1971 version (just like the baseball boxes changed).
I don't know if I have a 1972 inner cello pack box to compare, but I'd bet it is yellow, has a product code ending in 2, and has the Topps logo in the place that the number of cards used to be in the 1971 version (just like the baseball boxes changed). >>
I thought there were no inner boxes for '72 football cellos.
<< <i>This box was probably in a Topps employees collection as I believe like you guys that these never went into production. I find it hard to believe anyone would bother faking this box. Topps probably toyed with the idea of changing the pricing for the 1972 cellos, but then thought the better of it and never went forward this these boxes. I agree with Dave (PaulMaul) that this type of thing is fasinating and makes for a great discussion. >>
Would have been cool to see an actual 50-card baseball cello pack, too~almost a rack pack in a cello pack, LOL! >>
That's probably why the idea was abandoned. A rack pack had four more cards for 11 cents less! Someone at Topps failed accounting. >>
That never would have happened if I were working there. Of course, they might have had a shinkage problem instead.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>This box was probably in a Topps employees collection as I believe like you guys that these never went into production. I find it hard to believe anyone would bother faking this box. Topps probably toyed with the idea of changing the pricing for the 1972 cellos, but then thought the better of it and never went forward this these boxes. I agree with Dave (PaulMaul) that this type of thing is fasinating and makes for a great discussion. >>
Would have been cool to see an actual 50-card baseball cello pack, too~almost a rack pack in a cello pack, LOL! >>
That's probably why the idea was abandoned. A rack pack had four more cards for 11 cents less! Someone at Topps failed accounting. >>
That never would have happened if I were working there. Of course, they might have had a shinkage problem instead. >>
They had enough of a shrinkage problem without any assistance from you Mike. The provenance of several pieces in my unopened collection comes from a former Topps executive.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
<< <i>OK, here we are...the copyright info was on the bottom flap like the one in David's scan, but there is NO product code on either flap. That makes me wonder now if these were official Topps products or not, or if is truly some kind of "test" pack put out in very limited numbers by Topps. Any theories? >>
Tim I have two theories:
1) The 1972 Blue box was a re-design of the 1971 box. Perhaps by error of omission they forgot the product code (though EVERY Topps package
from that era ALWAYS had one, so this is at best a long-shot IMO).
2) It's not an original Topps item
Topps had standardized their processes and came up with a product code for every package way back before 1972. Every piece that they ever came up with went through
their standard process. Even the "trial marketing" pieces had product codes. How likely was it that this one just "happened" not to get one?
Other than a printing error of omission (which I view as a VERY remote possibility given that proofs would have also been involved and required approval prior to volume production), this is a major yellow flag for me.
And when you look at some of the other items pictured in that REA link, there are some weird packagings showing in there with other items too. How many
"wax-packs-in-rack" (not trays) have you ever seen from Topps before in the late 1970s and early 1980s in ANY sport?
I will not straight out condemn these items, but with all of the irregularities I would suggest that they should at least be viewed with some serious skepticism.
Dave
Thanks for posting. My 1970 cello box has same product code, too. Unfortunately, the 2 1972 jumbo cellos I have are in holders without the outer boxes and I don't have a raw one to compare it to. If anyone here has a raw 1972 cello box, that would be very useful info to check as far as whether there is a product code on the standard 72 cello box (i'd be shocked if there weren't). I'm also wondering now, too, if the box I have is actually a 1971 box, as those did specify a card count and Moran did post scans earlier in this thread of 71 50-card football cellos, so the card count precedent is there.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think I have a few of them. Let me try and dig them up and I'll see if we can get to the bottom of this.
Dave
<< <i>Tim,
I think I have a few of them. Let me try and dig them up and I'll see if we can get to the bottom of this. >>
Thanks, David. I would find it pretty odd that someone would go through all the trouble of counterfeiting an item like this--especially since the goal of a resealer is to NOT raise red flags, so why not just reseal normal 72 cello packs?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The news is not promising. Here is a shot of a 1972 cello pack box WITH a product code on the lower flap.
Methinks the evidence is starting to lead in a certain unfavorable direction
Dave
private re-packagings (kind of like the grocery cellos but done at a later date after the illegitimacy of
these had been uncovered) that were deliberately boxed similarly to make them appear more legitimate
(without violating Topps logo copyright and thus actually break a law in doing it)?
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>Tim,
I think I have a few of them. Let me try and dig them up and I'll see if we can get to the bottom of this. >>
Thanks, David. I would find it pretty odd that someone would go through all the trouble of counterfeiting an item like this--especially since the goal of a resealer is to NOT raise red flags, so why not just reseal normal 72 cello packs? >>
I can't imagine it's counterfeit. It's also interesting that you can clearly see in the pics how much thicker the 50 cent box is...as it would have to be to hold that many cards.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Tim,
I think I have a few of them. Let me try and dig them up and I'll see if we can get to the bottom of this. >>
Thanks, David. I would find it pretty odd that someone would go through all the trouble of counterfeiting an item like this--especially since the goal of a resealer is to NOT raise red flags, so why not just reseal normal 72 cello packs? >>
I can't imagine it's counterfeit. It's also interesting that you can clearly see in the pics how much thicker the 50 cent box is...as it would have to be to hold that many cards. >>
I would like to believe it is legitimate for baseball, but there are starting to be a lot of anomalies to explain away:
- Topps standardized their product development and release processes, and yet we are to believe no product code made it onto the supersized box (which is actually
most like the 1971 box that had one) but somehow it did make it onto the normal 1972 box. It is certainly possible that Topps has an error of omission on this packaging,
but its a remote possibility.
- No Topps logo on the front of the box where the normal 1972 box has it. Instead its like the 1971 box and has the card count there. Any chance we can see the sides of the box too? The 1971 boxes had a logo on the side and rear.
- Color of the box is not quite the same as either of the 1971 or 1972 normal examples (and I have a bunch of them to compare). Maybe its an enhancement from a scanner, and maybe its not. No way to be sure.
- Economically the pricing makes no sense. What company with any common sense would offer a kid (who probably doesn't have much money to being with) 50 cards for 50 cents when they also offer a packaging of 30 cards for 25 cents? Even 8 years old kids know they get more cards for their 50 cents (and extra gum too) by buying the smaller packs. If so, then you would expect a lot of the 50 cent packs to have gone unsold. So why have we seen so few of them?
- Other items in the REA lot that that was pictured have never-before seen packaging variations too.
And of course we KNOW there are the bogus grocery cellos for that era and that there is at least one person out there who has managed to create authentic looking cellos
from the 1960s and 1970s before (although his usually had stars showing).
This does not mean for sure that the 1972 50-card cello is no good, but you would need to provide a little more hard evidence that indicates this packaging was used for baseball. Right now all we've seen is a miscolored box, without a logo on the front, without a product code on the flap, priced in a way that makes no sense and a picture of an outer box and an inner yellow pack box from football that seems to indicate a 50-card packaging may have been used in that sport in the same year.
As much as we all want it to be good, the evidence is stacking up very heavily against it being so. Maybe it was produced BEFORE the normal 1973 cellos and then they decided not to offer it (none of us remember buying them back then) and go with the "normal" 1972 cello we all are familiar with? That's about the only explanation that would even start to make sense and address the anomalies if it is legitimate. They produced the first run and decided that the pricing model (and printing omission issues) were enough justification to scrap the idea and go with the 25 cent cello instead? Otherwise, if they had stayed with the 50 cent version they would have fixed the printing issues and never offered the 25 cent version (to prevent killing of the 50 cent cello sales which would generate a better margin for Topps).
At best I can see this packaging as an unreleased one that Topps produced but never offerred commercially.
Anyone have any idea what series the pack shown in the REA link is from based on the first card? If it's a first series card then this might suggest the unreleased packaging theory could be in the right vein.
Dave
want to actually infringe on the copyright and be in a position that you can be accused of breaking the law.
David, there is a Topps logo on both the back and side of the box (see scans). The grocery cellos were wrapped in simple clear cello which anyone could reproduce, but this empty box has all the hallmarks of an authentic Topps product with the exception of the product code. Paul Maul also raises an interesting point as the the increased thickness of this box which would be necessary to house 20 extra cards. That makes sense, too, in the same context as to why Topps racks from this era had the thicker seams between sections due to higher card counts.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Look at all the spirited discussion taking place once again!!
Well, at least dave aka paulmaul acknowledged my basketball wax rack observations; thanks dave!!
Now that we see the side and rear logos that helps. See the update I made in my last post.
I am now open to the idea that when Topps started planning for 1972 baseball they initially started down a path of a pricing shift.
Perhaps there was a "first run" of these 50-cent packs (which could explain the missing product code if the run was done early on),
after which they decided against the new pricing model and reverted to the typical 1972 pack we are all familiar with.
Certainly I cant imagine Toops would have ever released the 50-cent pack in the market without a product code (they would have
fixed that first). Further, they never would have released a 25-cent pack into the market to compete against the 50-cent pack (it
would kill 50-cent pack sales in nothing flat) UNLESS they were seeing a massive sales decline in the cellos due to the doubling in
the price. But the missing product code leads me to think that the "to boost sales release of a 25-cent pack after" is not accurate.
They would have corrected the product code issue before going into mass production if they were taking the 50-cent pack to market.
There are still a lot of ifs, but I am open to the idea of this being an internal sample of a packaging that they never released.
Dave
I think this theory is on the right track--72 cellos (real ones, anyway) are scarce enough, but if 50-card packs had been released for distribution, I truly believe we'd have seen some examples by now on the secondary market. I wonder if the cards in the 72 50-card box in the REA auction were even sealed. The one pack that shows the card through the window looks short, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The card on the front of the pack in the REA auction is an Oriole. It looks like a pitcher from the pose.
If we can figure out who it is (assuming it is a real card and not just a mock-up) and then determine the
series, that would help support the theory if it is a 1st series card). Also, if it is a "mock up" (a card that
was never produced and released) that too could support the theory. If it was a later series card that
would be less supportive of the thoery (assuming it was a sealed pack, which you may be correct on that
these samples were never sealed).
I checked and it looks very much to be:
128 1972 TOPPS EDDIE WATT
Definitely a first series card (series 1 had cards numbered between 1-132).
So we have a 1st series card in a box we believe to be an early sample for 1972 (with major change in price and card-count from 1971,
so it certainly would be reasonable to prototype it in limited quantities). That would seem to fit the theory pretty well. And if it was an
internal sample then it's possible they did not have a product code for it yet (perhaps they only assigned production codes after giving
it the go-ahead blessing, that seems reasonable to assume).
And since they were working from the 1971 blue box, it would also make sense that they changed it as little as possible for the prototype
to get some idea of what the pack would look like on the store countertop. So they change the "30" to "50" and basically leave everything
else as it was in 1971 so that they don't have to invest a lot of effort and money in creating a true design for a box they are not sure they
want to bring to market.
That offers reasonable explanations for just about everything (other than the other strange packagings in the REA lot photo). Perhaps
if we could discover from REA that the consignor of that lot was a former Topps employee it would add some additional strength
to the theory.
How does that sound?
Dave
Your synopsis sounds very plausible indeed. And the 71 connection is further bolstered by Moran's posting of the 50-card 71 football cello packs earlier in this thread, which were produced between the 71 baseball and the 72 baseball cellos. I can also certainly see why these 50-card packs would not have been very well received, as they were more expensive (per card) than 71 packs, and one of the reasons that 71 packs in general are tougher to find is that Topps scaled back production that year after a disappointing year in 1970 due in large part to the price hike in both wax and cello packs, from 5c and 10c, respectively, to 10c and 25c per pack.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
2. I wrote earlier in the thread:
"That's definitely an updated version of the back of the '72 box, not '71. The "one stick bubble gum" tag line lines up differently below the "cards" line in the '71."
In fact, the front of the 50 card box is also more similar to the regular '72 box than the '71 box. In both the '72 box and 50 card box, the "B" in "bubble gum" is to the left of the "D" in "cards." On the '71 box, the "B" is to the right of the "D."
So the box does NOT appear to be a reworking of the 1971 box, but does have some characteristics of the '72 box as well.
a 25 cent yellow football box in there (also one that I purchased as a child).
It turns out that the product code on the bottom flap ends in 1, so its a 1971. So it looks like Topps was using the 1971 boxes
in coming up with prototypes for 1972. That would explain John's football proof sheet similarly to my theory for the baseball
cellos.
Back in those days, a price bump from 25 cents to 50 cents was a big deal for a kid. I dont recall getting more than a single cello
pack at a time when I bought cards as a 6-9 year old. And rack packs with 54 cards were still only 39 cents. How a 50 cent
cello had any chance of reversing the sales decline already being experienced (probably attributable to the move from nickle packs
to dime packs) was likely realized pretty quickly so they decided to halt it early on in the conceptual phase.
And further thoughts anyone?
Dave
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
In fact it kind of makes sense. The 50 card design could have been viewed as a price increase from 1971. Most Topps price increases incorporated an increased card count. But then the change was abandoned in favor of the normal design which would at least still be a volume discount over three wax packs.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>So it looks like Topps was using the 1971 boxes
in coming up with prototypes for 1972. That would explain John's football proof sheet similarly to my theory for the baseball
cellos.
>>
Sorry Dave, I understand now and agree. These 50 count boxes were planned for 1972 but ultimately abandoned in favor of what we're familiar with.
<< <i>This box was probably in a Topps employees collection as I believe like you guys that these never went into production. I find it hard to believe anyone would bother faking this box. Topps probably toyed with the idea of changing the pricing for the 1972 cellos, but then thought the better of it and never went forward this these boxes. I agree with Dave (PaulMaul) that this type of thing is fasinating and makes for a great discussion. >>
Would have been cool to see an actual 50-card baseball cello pack, too~almost a rack pack in a cello pack, LOL!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>This box was probably in a Topps employees collection as I believe like you guys that these never went into production. I find it hard to believe anyone would bother faking this box. Topps probably toyed with the idea of changing the pricing for the 1972 cellos, but then thought the better of it and never went forward this these boxes. I agree with Dave (PaulMaul) that this type of thing is fasinating and makes for a great discussion. >>
Would have been cool to see an actual 50-card baseball cello pack, too~almost a rack pack in a cello pack, LOL! >>
That's probably why the idea was abandoned. A rack pack had four more cards for 11 cents less! Someone at Topps failed accounting.
The probably were considering changing to 50 cent cellos for all sports sometime in the latter part of the 2nd half of 1971.
They came up with mock-ups based on the existing 1971 packaging (minus the product codes as previously discussed).
Then they changed their minds and reverted to 25 cent cellos in 1972 that we are all familiar with
My 1971 yellow football box exhibits all of the same similarities to the picture of the box on the cover of John's scan, as the 1971
baseball boxes have to the 50-card box that Tim posted.
I don't know if I have a 1972 inner cello pack box to compare, but I'd bet it is yellow, has a product code ending in 2, and has the
Topps logo in the place that the number of cards used to be in the 1971 version (just like the baseball boxes changed).
Dave
<< <i>
I don't know if I have a 1972 inner cello pack box to compare, but I'd bet it is yellow, has a product code ending in 2, and has the
Topps logo in the place that the number of cards used to be in the 1971 version (just like the baseball boxes changed). >>
I thought there were no inner boxes for '72 football cellos.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This box was probably in a Topps employees collection as I believe like you guys that these never went into production. I find it hard to believe anyone would bother faking this box. Topps probably toyed with the idea of changing the pricing for the 1972 cellos, but then thought the better of it and never went forward this these boxes. I agree with Dave (PaulMaul) that this type of thing is fasinating and makes for a great discussion. >>
Would have been cool to see an actual 50-card baseball cello pack, too~almost a rack pack in a cello pack, LOL! >>
That's probably why the idea was abandoned. A rack pack had four more cards for 11 cents less! Someone at Topps failed accounting. >>
That never would have happened if I were working there. Of course, they might have had a shinkage problem instead.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This box was probably in a Topps employees collection as I believe like you guys that these never went into production. I find it hard to believe anyone would bother faking this box. Topps probably toyed with the idea of changing the pricing for the 1972 cellos, but then thought the better of it and never went forward this these boxes. I agree with Dave (PaulMaul) that this type of thing is fasinating and makes for a great discussion. >>
Would have been cool to see an actual 50-card baseball cello pack, too~almost a rack pack in a cello pack, LOL! >>
That's probably why the idea was abandoned. A rack pack had four more cards for 11 cents less! Someone at Topps failed accounting. >>
That never would have happened if I were working there. Of course, they might have had a shinkage problem instead.
They had enough of a shrinkage problem without any assistance from you Mike. The provenance of several pieces in my
unopened collection comes from a former Topps executive.
Dave
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.