Geez - you guys are slipping - not a single card posted yet...
Here:
Always loved Frank Thomas. When I moved to Cape Cod in 1988, my cousin took me to my first Cape Cod League game. It was an Orleans Cardinals game and 1 guy stood out like none other - Frank Thomas The guy was a monster back then, towered over everyone else on the field and you could just tell he was something special. He actually looked out of place on that field. So happy for him that he went on to have such a great career.
Which is horse caca. It should be 1988 Fleer, which has LONG been recognized as Glavine's "best" RC. Why they chose 1988 Score is beyond comprehension.
<< <i>Piazza's an obvious Hall of Famer. That's not even a discussion. There's no intelligent argument against Piazza, except for "whispers". Honestly there are times when I think the best thing that could happen to Baseball would be for a Frank Thomas or Griffey Jr to be implicated or found guilty of PED use. Maybe even a Jeter, Rivera. I like all those guys, they are looked at as sacred cows more so than Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro(guys who for various reasons were never held to their level anyway). It would end all of the sanctimonious BS. More people juiced and used than we will ever know. There are guys in the Hall now like Fisk, Ryan, others who should have serious questions about their careers but do not. Or are considered "untouchable". What a joke. >>
I think its a joke that steroid guys are kept out of a place that is full of drunks, womanizers, racists, kkk members, bigots, amphetamine users, cheats, drug users, etc. I think steroids are a minor issue compared to what some hall of famers did in their lifetimes. >>
Agree 100% Not only that, but one could make a very strong argument that the players' use of steroids made baseball better at a time it desperately needed a lift. Can't say that about any of the other bigots, etc
<< <i>Let's talk 1991 Upper Deck Final Update sets. You can get them for a buck at shows, and its got Pedro's XRC. Anyone see room for this XRC to move upwards? Thome is in there too, along with Pudge. >>
Sure, spend your hard earned money on that garbage. Those sets are $1.00 for a reason, they are overproduced junk. >>
They are overproduced, but if you buy in quantity there's probably some coin to make. If you can grab them for $1-$2 each, if Pedro gets in the HOF these could conceivably get back to the $8-$10 range.
<< <i>I actually heard a write on MLB radio yesterday (Marty Noble) say that he believed Biggio did PED's, and that 12 or so of the 20 writer cronies he discussed his vote with also believed that Biggio did PED's. Mr. Noble said none of the 12 guys that believed Biggio did PED's voted for Biggio. I have never heard Biggio tied to PED's myself, and you don't see the stat spikes with Biggio that you would expect to see. As for the merits of his stats. He has 3060 hits. Thats all the merits he needs. There are players that are currently in the HOF that don't have the stat lines that Biggio had. >>
If you haven't seen Biggio tied to PEDs, you obviously have followed this board much. He's been named numerous times on here. Two main reasons:
- He played in Houston. That's no small deal. Look at the roid guys that came through there: Caminiti, Clemens, Pettite, Bagwell (supposedly), Gonzalez (supposedly), Finley (supposedly) and probably a couple others I'm forgetting
- He hit his career high in homers at age 38 - in the same season that Roger Clemens arrived. He then topped that career high the following season at age 39.
As for the " 3060 hits. Thats all the merits he needs.", I don't agree with that assertion. If a guy gets 150 hits for 20 straight years, that's 3000 - and probably an average around .250.
Now, personally, I don't much care about the steroids thing. I used to but don't anymore. I wanna see Clemens and Bonds in - they belong.
Biggio, I'm not sure he belongs. Not the worst selection ever by a long stretch but his peak wasn't all that high, quite frankly.
And if your argument is "he's better than some guys already in", you lose. Do we really want a HOF populated with every guy better than Phil Rizzuto or Bill Mazeroski?
<< <i>Glavine's career postseason ERA and WHIP were both better than his career regular season stats, and Maddux had a postseason ERA of 3.27 and WHIP of 1.24, so if you're going to say the Braves didn't win enough titles, it certainly is not because of either one of them. In fact, without Galvine, the Braves don't win the NLCS or the WS in 1995.
Edit to add: In fact, here's an interesting fact to dispel a common misconception. Most people view Jack Morris as a postseason beast, yet his career postseason ERA is higher than either Maddux OR Glavine. >>
The reality is that Maddux was generally pretty dominant in the postseason. You look at his numbers and, in 23 series, 15 times he had an ERA under 3.00. That's pretty darn great.
Everybody remembers the Braves getting robbed by Eric Gregg in the "Livan Hernandez game". Maddux was the opposing pitcher. He went 0-2 with a 1.38 ERA.
If the Braves failed in the postseason, it wasn't because of Maddux.
As for Morris, take away 1992 and he's 7-1 with a 2.60 ERA.
<< <i>Always loved Frank Thomas. When I moved to Cape Cod in 1988, my cousin took me to my first Cape Cod League game. It was an Orleans Cardinals game and 1 guy stood out like none other - Frank Thomas The guy was a monster back then, towered over everyone else on the field and you could just tell he was something special. He actually looked out of place on that field. So happy for him that he went on to have such a great career.
Congrats Frank!! >>
In 1990, my brother was living in Niles, MI and he went to a few minor league games. He called me out of the blue one day to tell me about this "monster" of a guy he'd seen the day before that was gonna be a HOFer someday. "Man among boys" and all that. Yeah...Frank Thomas. He was called up shortly after that and the rest is history.
<< <i>Piazza's an obvious Hall of Famer. That's not even a discussion. There's no intelligent argument against Piazza, except for "whispers". Honestly there are times when I think the best thing that could happen to Baseball would be for a Frank Thomas or Griffey Jr to be implicated or found guilty of PED use. Maybe even a Jeter, Rivera. I like all those guys, they are looked at as sacred cows more so than Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro(guys who for various reasons were never held to their level anyway). It would end all of the sanctimonious BS. More people juiced and used than we will ever know. There are guys in the Hall now like Fisk, Ryan, others who should have serious questions about their careers but do not. Or are considered "untouchable". What a joke. >>
I think its a joke that steroid guys are kept out of a place that is full of drunks, womanizers, racists, kkk members, bigots, amphetamine users, cheats, drug users, etc. I think steroids are a minor issue compared to what some hall of famers did in their lifetimes. >>
Apples and Oranges, baseball is such a stat driven sport and none of those things drove a persons stats off the charts like steriods did to so many. PED's had good players putting up epic numbers, I remember as a kid when George Fosters was chasing the 50 homerun mark in the 70's and it was a bid deal and it was rarely done, had he took steriods he would be in the HOF. Twenty plus years later and Brady Anderson and many others are hitting 50 plus..............come on.
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Statistically, Biggio is a lock. No one has come that close and not been in, its just the timing of it.
I honestly believe when the dust settles, you have to take the entire era and assume that EVERYONE was doing some form of PEDs, then compare to their peers only for context of who was great. There is no historical context to compare the players to.
To be very clear, I think Bonds (and many others) is a dirtbag and will never, ever look at him as the all time anything. But I DO see him as the best hitter of his era and a hall of famer. Same idea on Clemens.
I hope Schilling's vote total gets pushed up. Smoltz is iffy - I imagine Biggio will get in. >>
I think Smoltz gets in, big time pitcher rep although his splits with starting and relieving makes it more difficult to compare with other pitchers. There are probably more than a few that would rather have Smoltz start a "must win" game over Maddux and Glavine.
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The fact that Curt Schilling is getting less than 30% of the vote and Craig Biggio is a mortal lock to eventually get in is the reason why the whole Hall and process are a total sham. You mean to tell me any GM would rather have Biggio than Schilling? I'm done arguing about the Hall of Stats. Yes, you'd always like to have a very good player up the middle for 20 years but you'd take a Top 5 Cy Young candidate and money postseason pitcher for 15 years every single time. Its the Hall of Fame. Curt Schilling is one of the most memorable pitchers of the last 20 years and we'll see things he did replayed throughout our lifetimes. Nobody besides baseball card collectors and autograph hounds will give a rats behind about Craig Biggio in 20 years.
<< <i>Piazza's an obvious Hall of Famer. That's not even a discussion. There's no intelligent argument against Piazza, except for "whispers". Honestly there are times when I think the best thing that could happen to Baseball would be for a Frank Thomas or Griffey Jr to be implicated or found guilty of PED use. Maybe even a Jeter, Rivera. I like all those guys, they are looked at as sacred cows more so than Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro(guys who for various reasons were never held to their level anyway). It would end all of the sanctimonious BS. More people juiced and used than we will ever know. There are guys in the Hall now like Fisk, Ryan, others who should have serious questions about their careers but do not. Or are considered "untouchable". What a joke. >>
I think its a joke that steroid guys are kept out of a place that is full of drunks, womanizers, racists, kkk members, bigots, amphetamine users, cheats, drug users, etc. I think steroids are a minor issue compared to what some hall of famers did in their lifetimes. >>
Agree 100% Not only that, but one could make a very strong argument that the players' use of steroids made baseball better at a time it desperately needed a lift. Can't say that about any of the other bigots, etc >>
this. they oughta give McGwire his own key to the place and rename the main boulevard after him.
<< <i>Pedro will absolutely get in on the 1st ballot. He is arguably the best pitcher of all time. >>
You can certainly make that case. I'm not sure he was quite durable enough to be "best of all-time" but he's right up there. You can certainly make the case that his 1999 & 2000 seasons are the best back-to-back years by anybody ever. Stretch it to 1997-2002 and I'm not sure anybody - even Koufax - ever had a run like that. He was certainly way above everybody there for awhile.
<< <i>The fact that Curt Schilling is getting less than 30% of the vote and Craig Biggio is a mortal lock to eventually get in is the reason why the whole Hall and process are a total sham. You mean to tell me any GM would rather have Biggio than Schilling? I'm done arguing about the Hall of Stats. Yes, you'd always like to have a very good player up the middle for 20 years but you'd take a Top 5 Cy Young candidate and money postseason pitcher for 15 years every single time. Its the Hall of Fame. Curt Schilling is one of the most memorable pitchers of the last 20 years and we'll see things he did replayed throughout our lifetimes. Nobody besides baseball card collectors and autograph hounds will give a rats behind about Craig Biggio in 20 years. >>
I think that's a little overstated. Schilling's Cy Young-type success occurred over a four year period. GM's would love the Curt Schilling in 2001, 2002, 2004, but the rest of his career was largely mediocre. A few post-season highlights don't make a HOF career, IMO.
I wouldn't be surprised if both Pedro and Smoltz have to wait til their 2nd or 3rd try, just like Piazza and Biggio are now. The voters are weird, it's like there's something sacred about letting someone in first ballot; like being a first balloter is going into the Hall of Fame of the Hall of Fame. Look at the list- http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/First_Ballot_Hall_of_Famer . It's hard to argue that any of those guys were close to borderline.
The 3 this year were blatantly obvious, as is Randy Johnson. Pedro and Smoltz I think are less obvious but deserving. Pedro was unhittable during his prime, but did his prime last long enough? Smoltz was good but not great for the 1st 7 years of his career, and he also has the weird starter-closer stats combo which make it hard to measure him against anybody except Eck who had 240 more saves and only 15 less wins. And Eck didn't exactly blow the voters away (83%) even though he did get in 1st ballot.
I think they both could get in first ballot, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. If I had to bet, I think next year's ballot looks like Big Unit and Biggio in, and Pedro/Smoltz in the 65%-72% range.
Pedro and Randy Johnson are mortal locks for the HOF on the first ballot. Smoltz is not quite on their level but will be there next year too. Biggio in year 3 sounds about right to me. I mean he wasn't even the best player on his team.
I couldn't believe it today when they said that no starting pitcher whose career began after 1971 had been inducted into the HOF until today. Hard to believe that no HOF worthy SP started a career from 1972-1985. Other than Jack Morris who could possibly represent the 1970's? Has to be more guys out there who are worthy of consideration.
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Pedro and Randy Johnson are mortal locks for the HOF on the first ballot.
Absolutely. Even with the morons voting, they will each get well over 90%. No way that Biggio gets a higher % than either one of them. I would also bet Smoltz will get in next year before Biggio, too. I would also rank Smoltz higher than Eck all time. Eck is overrated imo, and though I have no real problem with him in the HOF, considering some of the other relievers that are there (Gossage and Sutter), he is not on the upper echelon of HOF pitchers. No reliever is, really.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Crazy as it sounds but I think that Rafael Palmeiro is one of the big winners in today's vote. He falls of the writer's ballot and out of the public eye for a while but technically could be added to the Veteran's Committee ballot the next time the expansion era vote happens which is 2017 (and again every three years there after).
Assuming that Jack Morris gets inducted in 2017 when he first appears on the Veteran's ballot, there's a chance that Palmeiro could get inducted sooner than he would have if he stayed on the writer's ballot (especially if the mood towards PED users changes in the future and one of the bigger names like Clemens and Bonds get elected) since the quality of candidates from the expansion era becomes less impressive.
Maddux: Smartest pitcher ever. Just knew what the batter was going to do before he did it. Would make pitches intentionally getting guys to hit hard fouls. Just a phenomenal player. We'll never see another one like him. I look back on his stats now and I'm just blown away be how good some of them are. I think the most amazing thing is that he did most of his damage right in the middle of the steroid era. He was dominating all these guys that were juiced up and hitting 60HR's 500 feet. The best of all-time
Glavine: No brainer. Incredible to think he was the #2 SP his whole career because of Maddux. Only fitting these 2 go in together
Thomas: Such a class act. No link to PED's doesn't mean no PED's, but I would doubt anything major is out there. He's another guy that put together a remarkable run that looks like a run by Dimaggio, Ted Williams, or Lou Gehrig.
This is a great class. Three outstanding people that were the shining lights during a very dark era in baseball
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Pete Rose, Rafael Palmiero should all be in
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There has not been much rookie card activity for Glavine, Maddux or Thomas on ebay. It is as if the HOF was already factored into their prices.
Perhaps there were just too many printed of each speaking on relative terms.
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<< <i>Pedro and Randy Johnson are mortal locks for the HOF on the first ballot. Smoltz is not quite on their level but will be there next year too. Biggio in year 3 sounds about right to me. I mean he wasn't even the best player on his team.
I couldn't believe it today when they said that no starting pitcher whose career began after 1971 had been inducted into the HOF until today. Hard to believe that no HOF worthy SP started a career from 1972-1985. Other than Jack Morris who could possibly represent the 1970's? Has to be more guys out there who are worthy of consideration. >>
Saucy that starting pitcher fact is wild, I didn't know.
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<< <i>Maddux: Smartest pitcher ever. Just knew what the batter was going to do before he did it. Would make pitches intentionally getting guys to hit hard fouls. Just a phenomenal player. We'll never see another one like him. I look back on his stats now and I'm just blown away be how good some of them are. I think the most amazing thing is that he did most of his damage right in the middle of the steroid era. He was dominating all these guys that were juiced up and hitting 60HR's 500 feet. The best of all-time
Glavine: No brainer. Incredible to think he was the #2 SP his whole career because of Maddux. Only fitting these 2 go in together
Thomas: Such a class act. No link to PED's doesn't mean no PED's, but I would doubt anything major is out there. He's another guy that put together a remarkable run that looks like a run by Dimaggio, Ted Williams, or Lou Gehrig.
This is a great class. Three outstanding people that were the shining lights during a very dark era in baseball
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Pete Rose, Rafael Palmiero should all be in >>
Maddux is bad ass and either him or Clemens was the best modern SP but to call Maddux best all time is unfair to some of the greats from the other eras.
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<< <i>There has not been much rookie card activity for Glavine, Maddux or Thomas on ebay. It is as if the HOF was already factored into their prices.
Perhaps there were just too many printed of each speaking on relative terms. >>
the anticipation of all 3 being elected has already created an upward trend which has lasted for quite awhile. there should be more interest again as the actual ceremony approaches and the excitement builds, particularly in the acknowledgement that last year's ceremony was a comparative disaster.
this is also a class with deeper roots in minor league issued cards, so perhaps there will be a greater spike on those.
I agree. Decent, sometimes good, often not, starter. Waaaaaaaaaay overrated as a closer. He had a 4-year run where he was great 3 of the years. Other than that? A lot of not good. He had a 12-year run as a closer and his ERA was 2.96 or higher eight times, with five of those being 3.91 or higher. He had a career ERA of 2.85 as a reliever which is decent but not great. It's 3.08 if you exclude his ridiculous 0.61 year.
In the end, Eck was a starter who wasn't good enough to stay a starter, became a reliever and had a nice run for a few years and then hung around being terrible for a long time. People remember him as being unhittable that entire time, which he certainly was not. In fact, I'd say he really only had three outstanding seasons as a closer (out of 12 as a reliever). In my eyes, if you want to be considered an outstanding closer, you better be down real close to 2.00 for your ERA and Eck usually wasn't.
<< <i>There has not been much rookie card activity for Glavine, Maddux or Thomas on ebay. It is as if the HOF was already factored into their prices.
Perhaps there were just too many printed of each speaking on relative terms. >>
the anticipation of all 3 being elected has already created an upward trend which has lasted for quite awhile. there should be more interest again as the actual ceremony approaches and the excitement builds, particularly in the acknowledgement that last year's ceremony was a comparative disaster.
this is also a class with deeper roots in minor league issued cards, so perhaps there will be a greater spike on those. >>
He had a 12-year run as a closer and his ERA was 2.96 or higher eight times, with five of those being 3.91 or higher. He had a career ERA of 2.85 as a reliever which is decent but not great. It's 3.08 if you exclude his ridiculous 0.61 year. >>
He was only a true "closer" for 10 years. The first five years were great, an ERA of 1.90. The next five years his ERA was still lower than league average, but no matter what he did, it doesn't change what he was able to do at his peak.
<< <i>In the end, Eck was a starter who wasn't good enough to stay a starter, became a reliever and had a nice run for a few years and then hung around being terrible for a long time. >>
Not good enough or not sober enough? For the first five years of his career he averaged 230 innings and a 3.12 ERA. That's nearly equal to what Justin Verlander has done. So that's five years as a true ace starter and five years as one of the best closers in history. Again, the years he was drinking and the years in his 40s don't take away from those 10 years. But there were still some more good years -- 82, 84, 85, 87, 93, 96 -- that only add to it
For the first five years of his career he averaged 230 innings and a 3.12 ERA. That's nearly equal to what Justin Verlander has done
Surely you also know that putting up an ERA of 3.12 from 2009 through 2013 if quite different from putting up an ERA of 3.12 from 1975 through 1979.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Video from MLB of Glavine and Maddux talking for the first time after their HOF announcement. A friend of mine actually did the live shot with Glavine, lucky guy!
<< <i> Not good enough or not sober enough? For the first five years of his career he averaged 230 innings and a 3.12 ERA. That's nearly equal to what Justin Verlander has done. So that's five years as a true ace starter and five years as one of the best closers in history. Again, the years he was drinking and the years in his 40s don't take away from those 10 years. But there were still some more good years -- 82, 84, 85, 87, 93, 96 -- that only add to it >>
You have a funny definition of "good". In 1996, Eck had an ERA over 4. On what planet is that good for a closer? In 93, his ERA was what? 3.30? Decent - but not good - for a closer.
As for his years as a starter, I don't care why he didn't perform. Not good enough or not sober enough, it doesn't matter. All that matters is he didn't get people out well enough.
Comments
Here:
Always loved Frank Thomas. When I moved to Cape Cod in 1988, my cousin took me to my first Cape Cod League game. It was an Orleans Cardinals game and 1 guy stood out like none other - Frank Thomas
The guy was a monster back then, towered over everyone else on the field and you could just tell he was something special. He actually looked out of place on that field. So happy for him that he went on to have such a great career.
Congrats Frank!!
lol
<< <i>Congrats to:
1987 Donruss
1988 Score
1990 Leaf
for making it into the PSA HOF Registry! >>
Which is horse caca. It should be 1988 Fleer, which has LONG been recognized as Glavine's "best" RC. Why they chose 1988 Score is beyond comprehension.
<< <i>
<< <i>Piazza's an obvious Hall of Famer. That's not even a discussion. There's no intelligent argument against Piazza, except for "whispers".
Honestly there are times when I think the best thing that could happen to Baseball would be for a Frank Thomas or Griffey Jr to be implicated or found guilty of PED use. Maybe even a Jeter, Rivera. I like all those guys, they are looked at as sacred cows more so than Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro(guys who for various reasons were never held to their level anyway). It would end all of the sanctimonious BS.
More people juiced and used than we will ever know. There are guys in the Hall now like Fisk, Ryan, others who should have serious questions about their careers but do not. Or are considered "untouchable".
What a joke. >>
I think its a joke that steroid guys are kept out of a place that is full of drunks, womanizers, racists, kkk members, bigots, amphetamine users, cheats, drug users, etc. I think steroids are a minor issue compared to what some hall of famers did in their lifetimes. >>
Agree 100%
Not only that, but one could make a very strong argument that the players' use of steroids made baseball better at a time it desperately needed a lift. Can't say that about any of the other bigots, etc
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's talk 1991 Upper Deck Final Update sets. You can get them for a buck at shows, and its got Pedro's XRC. Anyone see room for this XRC to move upwards? Thome is in there too, along with Pudge. >>
Sure, spend your hard earned money on that garbage. Those sets are $1.00 for a reason, they are overproduced junk. >>
They are overproduced, but if you buy in quantity there's probably some coin to make. If you can grab them for $1-$2 each, if Pedro gets in the HOF these could conceivably get back to the $8-$10 range.
<< <i>I actually heard a write on MLB radio yesterday (Marty Noble) say that he believed Biggio did PED's, and that 12 or so of the 20 writer cronies he discussed his vote with also believed that Biggio did PED's. Mr. Noble said none of the 12 guys that believed Biggio did PED's voted for Biggio. I have never heard Biggio tied to PED's myself, and you don't see the stat spikes with Biggio that you would expect to see. As for the merits of his stats. He has 3060 hits. Thats all the merits he needs. There are players that are currently in the HOF that don't have the stat lines that Biggio had. >>
If you haven't seen Biggio tied to PEDs, you obviously have followed this board much. He's been named numerous times on here. Two main reasons:
- He played in Houston. That's no small deal. Look at the roid guys that came through there: Caminiti, Clemens, Pettite, Bagwell (supposedly), Gonzalez (supposedly), Finley (supposedly) and probably a couple others I'm forgetting
- He hit his career high in homers at age 38 - in the same season that Roger Clemens arrived. He then topped that career high the following season at age 39.
As for the " 3060 hits. Thats all the merits he needs.", I don't agree with that assertion. If a guy gets 150 hits for 20 straight years, that's 3000 - and probably an average around .250.
Now, personally, I don't much care about the steroids thing. I used to but don't anymore. I wanna see Clemens and Bonds in - they belong.
Biggio, I'm not sure he belongs. Not the worst selection ever by a long stretch but his peak wasn't all that high, quite frankly.
And if your argument is "he's better than some guys already in", you lose. Do we really want a HOF populated with every guy better than Phil Rizzuto or Bill Mazeroski?
<< <i>All the other eligible non-roid guys got in on the first ballot with 3000 hits...there is no good reason Biggio should be any different. >>
False.
Nap Lajoie
Cap Anson
Eddie Collins
Paul Waner
All didn't get in on their first ballot.
You know who also didn't get in on his first try? Joe Dimaggio.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's a complete joke that a guy with 3,000 hits has been left out not once, but twice. Biggio should be in, period.
+1000
Its insulting actually. Everyone else but Rose and Palmero are in except for these 2 which is for obvious reasons. >>
Disagree. When was he ever a Top 5 player in the game for a 4-5 year stretch? It's a Hall of Fame, not a Hall of Stats.
I must have forgotten every time ESPN had to break in to the game I was watching to show me those memorable Craig Biggio at-bats. >>
They would cut to a highlight of him standing over the plate and getting beaned.
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<< <i>Glavine's career postseason ERA and WHIP were both better than his career regular season stats, and Maddux had a postseason ERA of 3.27 and WHIP of 1.24, so if you're going to say the Braves didn't win enough titles, it certainly is not because of either one of them. In fact, without Galvine, the Braves don't win the NLCS or the WS in 1995.
Edit to add: In fact, here's an interesting fact to dispel a common misconception. Most people view Jack Morris as a postseason beast, yet his career postseason ERA is higher than either Maddux OR Glavine. >>
The reality is that Maddux was generally pretty dominant in the postseason. You look at his numbers and, in 23 series, 15 times he had an ERA under 3.00. That's pretty darn great.
Everybody remembers the Braves getting robbed by Eric Gregg in the "Livan Hernandez game". Maddux was the opposing pitcher. He went 0-2 with a 1.38 ERA.
If the Braves failed in the postseason, it wasn't because of Maddux.
As for Morris, take away 1992 and he's 7-1 with a 2.60 ERA.
<< <i>Always loved Frank Thomas. When I moved to Cape Cod in 1988, my cousin took me to my first Cape Cod League game. It was an Orleans Cardinals game and 1 guy stood out like none other - Frank Thomas
The guy was a monster back then, towered over everyone else on the field and you could just tell he was something special. He actually looked out of place on that field. So happy for him that he went on to have such a great career.
Congrats Frank!! >>
In 1990, my brother was living in Niles, MI and he went to a few minor league games. He called me out of the blue one day to tell me about this "monster" of a guy he'd seen the day before that was gonna be a HOFer someday. "Man among boys" and all that. Yeah...Frank Thomas. He was called up shortly after that and the rest is history.
<< <i>
<< <i>Piazza's an obvious Hall of Famer. That's not even a discussion. There's no intelligent argument against Piazza, except for "whispers".
Honestly there are times when I think the best thing that could happen to Baseball would be for a Frank Thomas or Griffey Jr to be implicated or found guilty of PED use. Maybe even a Jeter, Rivera. I like all those guys, they are looked at as sacred cows more so than Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro(guys who for various reasons were never held to their level anyway). It would end all of the sanctimonious BS.
More people juiced and used than we will ever know. There are guys in the Hall now like Fisk, Ryan, others who should have serious questions about their careers but do not. Or are considered "untouchable".
What a joke. >>
I think its a joke that steroid guys are kept out of a place that is full of drunks, womanizers, racists, kkk members, bigots, amphetamine users, cheats, drug users, etc. I think steroids are a minor issue compared to what some hall of famers did in their lifetimes. >>
Apples and Oranges, baseball is such a stat driven sport and none of those things drove a persons stats off the charts like steriods did to so many. PED's had good players putting up epic numbers, I remember as a kid when George Fosters was chasing the 50 homerun mark in the 70's and it was a bid deal and it was rarely done, had he took steriods he would be in the HOF. Twenty plus years later and Brady Anderson and many others are hitting 50 plus..............come on.
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<< <i>Man...I feel old when I think back and remember pulling these rookies out of packs. Now they're retired and in the hall.
Where does the time go?
Congrats inductees!!! >>
worse...now i'm watching their kids play pro!!!!
I hope Schilling's vote total gets pushed up. Smoltz is iffy - I imagine Biggio will get in.
I honestly believe when the dust settles, you have to take the entire era and assume that EVERYONE was doing some form of PEDs, then compare to their peers only for context of who was great. There is no historical context to compare the players to.
To be very clear, I think Bonds (and many others) is a dirtbag and will never, ever look at him as the all time anything. But I DO see him as the best hitter of his era and a hall of famer. Same idea on Clemens.
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<< <i>Pedro and RJ are locks.
I hope Schilling's vote total gets pushed up. Smoltz is iffy - I imagine Biggio will get in. >>
I think Smoltz gets in, big time pitcher rep although his splits with starting and relieving makes it more difficult to compare with other pitchers. There are probably more than a few that would rather have Smoltz start a "must win" game over Maddux and Glavine.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Piazza's an obvious Hall of Famer. That's not even a discussion. There's no intelligent argument against Piazza, except for "whispers".
Honestly there are times when I think the best thing that could happen to Baseball would be for a Frank Thomas or Griffey Jr to be implicated or found guilty of PED use. Maybe even a Jeter, Rivera. I like all those guys, they are looked at as sacred cows more so than Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro(guys who for various reasons were never held to their level anyway). It would end all of the sanctimonious BS.
More people juiced and used than we will ever know. There are guys in the Hall now like Fisk, Ryan, others who should have serious questions about their careers but do not. Or are considered "untouchable".
What a joke. >>
I think its a joke that steroid guys are kept out of a place that is full of drunks, womanizers, racists, kkk members, bigots, amphetamine users, cheats, drug users, etc. I think steroids are a minor issue compared to what some hall of famers did in their lifetimes. >>
Agree 100%
Not only that, but one could make a very strong argument that the players' use of steroids made baseball better at a time it desperately needed a lift. Can't say that about any of the other bigots, etc >>
this. they oughta give McGwire his own key to the place and rename the main boulevard after him.
<< <i>Pedro will absolutely get in on the 1st ballot. He is arguably the best pitcher of all time. >>
You can certainly make that case. I'm not sure he was quite durable enough to be "best of all-time" but he's right up there. You can certainly make the case that his 1999 & 2000 seasons are the best back-to-back years by anybody ever. Stretch it to 1997-2002 and I'm not sure anybody - even Koufax - ever had a run like that. He was certainly way above everybody there for awhile.
<< <i>The fact that Curt Schilling is getting less than 30% of the vote and Craig Biggio is a mortal lock to eventually get in is the reason why the whole Hall and process are a total sham. You mean to tell me any GM would rather have Biggio than Schilling? I'm done arguing about the Hall of Stats. Yes, you'd always like to have a very good player up the middle for 20 years but you'd take a Top 5 Cy Young candidate and money postseason pitcher for 15 years every single time. Its the Hall of Fame. Curt Schilling is one of the most memorable pitchers of the last 20 years and we'll see things he did replayed throughout our lifetimes. Nobody besides baseball card collectors and autograph hounds will give a rats behind about Craig Biggio in 20 years. >>
I think that's a little overstated. Schilling's Cy Young-type success occurred over a four year period. GM's would love the Curt Schilling in 2001, 2002, 2004, but the rest of his career was largely mediocre. A few post-season highlights don't make a HOF career, IMO.
<< <i>Geez - you guys are slipping - not a single card posted yet... >>
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The 3 this year were blatantly obvious, as is Randy Johnson. Pedro and Smoltz I think are less obvious but deserving. Pedro was unhittable during his prime, but did his prime last long enough? Smoltz was good but not great for the 1st 7 years of his career, and he also has the weird starter-closer stats combo which make it hard to measure him against anybody except Eck who had 240 more saves and only 15 less wins. And Eck didn't exactly blow the voters away (83%) even though he did get in 1st ballot.
I think they both could get in first ballot, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. If I had to bet, I think next year's ballot looks like Big Unit and Biggio in, and Pedro/Smoltz in the 65%-72% range.
I couldn't believe it today when they said that no starting pitcher whose career began after 1971 had been inducted into the HOF until today. Hard to believe that no HOF worthy SP started a career from 1972-1985. Other than Jack Morris who could possibly represent the 1970's? Has to be more guys out there who are worthy of consideration.
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Absolutely. Even with the morons voting, they will each get well over 90%. No way that Biggio gets a higher % than either one of them. I would also bet Smoltz will get in next year before Biggio, too. I would also rank Smoltz higher than Eck all time. Eck is overrated imo, and though I have no real problem with him in the HOF, considering some of the other relievers that are there (Gossage and Sutter), he is not on the upper echelon of HOF pitchers. No reliever is, really.
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Assuming that Jack Morris gets inducted in 2017 when he first appears on the Veteran's ballot, there's a chance that Palmeiro could get inducted sooner than he would have if he stayed on the writer's ballot (especially if the mood towards PED users changes in the future and one of the bigger names like Clemens and Bonds get elected) since the quality of candidates from the expansion era becomes less impressive.
Glavine: No brainer. Incredible to think he was the #2 SP his whole career because of Maddux. Only fitting these 2 go in together
Thomas: Such a class act. No link to PED's doesn't mean no PED's, but I would doubt anything major is out there. He's another guy that put together a remarkable run that looks like a run by Dimaggio, Ted Williams, or Lou Gehrig.
This is a great class. Three outstanding people that were the shining lights during a very dark era in baseball
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Pete Rose, Rafael Palmiero should all be in
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Perhaps there were just too many printed of each speaking on relative terms.
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<< <i>Pedro and Randy Johnson are mortal locks for the HOF on the first ballot. Smoltz is not quite on their level but will be there next year too. Biggio in year 3 sounds about right to me. I mean he wasn't even the best player on his team.
I couldn't believe it today when they said that no starting pitcher whose career began after 1971 had been inducted into the HOF until today. Hard to believe that no HOF worthy SP started a career from 1972-1985. Other than Jack Morris who could possibly represent the 1970's? Has to be more guys out there who are worthy of consideration. >>
Saucy that starting pitcher fact is wild, I didn't know.
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<< <i>Maddux: Smartest pitcher ever. Just knew what the batter was going to do before he did it. Would make pitches intentionally getting guys to hit hard fouls. Just a phenomenal player. We'll never see another one like him. I look back on his stats now and I'm just blown away be how good some of them are. I think the most amazing thing is that he did most of his damage right in the middle of the steroid era. He was dominating all these guys that were juiced up and hitting 60HR's 500 feet. The best of all-time
Glavine: No brainer. Incredible to think he was the #2 SP his whole career because of Maddux. Only fitting these 2 go in together
Thomas: Such a class act. No link to PED's doesn't mean no PED's, but I would doubt anything major is out there. He's another guy that put together a remarkable run that looks like a run by Dimaggio, Ted Williams, or Lou Gehrig.
This is a great class. Three outstanding people that were the shining lights during a very dark era in baseball
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Pete Rose, Rafael Palmiero should all be in >>
Maddux is bad ass and either him or Clemens was the best modern SP but to call Maddux best all time is unfair to some of the greats from the other eras.
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<< <i>There has not been much rookie card activity for Glavine, Maddux or Thomas on ebay. It is as if the HOF was already factored into their prices.
Perhaps there were just too many printed of each speaking on relative terms. >>
the anticipation of all 3 being elected has already created an upward trend which has lasted for quite awhile. there should be more interest again as the actual ceremony approaches and the excitement builds, particularly in the acknowledgement that last year's ceremony was a comparative disaster.
this is also a class with deeper roots in minor league issued cards, so perhaps there will be a greater spike on those.
<< <i> Eck is overrated imo, >>
I agree. Decent, sometimes good, often not, starter. Waaaaaaaaaay overrated as a closer. He had a 4-year run where he was great 3 of the years. Other than that? A lot of not good. He had a 12-year run as a closer and his ERA was 2.96 or higher eight times, with five of those being 3.91 or higher. He had a career ERA of 2.85 as a reliever which is decent but not great. It's 3.08 if you exclude his ridiculous 0.61 year.
In the end, Eck was a starter who wasn't good enough to stay a starter, became a reliever and had a nice run for a few years and then hung around being terrible for a long time. People remember him as being unhittable that entire time, which he certainly was not. In fact, I'd say he really only had three outstanding seasons as a closer (out of 12 as a reliever). In my eyes, if you want to be considered an outstanding closer, you better be down real close to 2.00 for your ERA and Eck usually wasn't.
<< <i>
<< <i>There has not been much rookie card activity for Glavine, Maddux or Thomas on ebay. It is as if the HOF was already factored into their prices.
Perhaps there were just too many printed of each speaking on relative terms. >>
the anticipation of all 3 being elected has already created an upward trend which has lasted for quite awhile. there should be more interest again as the actual ceremony approaches and the excitement builds, particularly in the acknowledgement that last year's ceremony was a comparative disaster.
this is also a class with deeper roots in minor league issued cards, so perhaps there will be a greater spike on those. >>
+1.
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<< <i>
<< <i> Eck is overrated imo, >>
He had a 12-year run as a closer and his ERA was 2.96 or higher eight times, with five of those being 3.91 or higher. He had a career ERA of 2.85 as a reliever which is decent but not great. It's 3.08 if you exclude his ridiculous 0.61 year. >>
He was only a true "closer" for 10 years. The first five years were great, an ERA of 1.90. The next five years his ERA was still lower than league average, but no matter what he did, it doesn't change what he was able to do at his peak.
<< <i>In the end, Eck was a starter who wasn't good enough to stay a starter, became a reliever and had a nice run for a few years and then hung around being terrible for a long time. >>
Not good enough or not sober enough? For the first five years of his career he averaged 230 innings and a 3.12 ERA. That's nearly equal to what Justin Verlander has done. So that's five years as a true ace starter and five years as one of the best closers in history. Again, the years he was drinking and the years in his 40s don't take away from those 10 years. But there were still some more good years -- 82, 84, 85, 87, 93, 96 -- that only add to it
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For the first five years of his career he averaged 230 innings and a 3.12 ERA. That's nearly equal to what Justin Verlander has done
Surely you also know that putting up an ERA of 3.12 from 2009 through 2013 if quite different from putting up an ERA of 3.12 from 1975 through 1979.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
From the era of buying stacks of RCs. Also with Glavine but didn't do it with Maddux. Not sure why?
Glavine on his HOF selection
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<< <i>
Not good enough or not sober enough? For the first five years of his career he averaged 230 innings and a 3.12 ERA. That's nearly equal to what Justin Verlander has done. So that's five years as a true ace starter and five years as one of the best closers in history. Again, the years he was drinking and the years in his 40s don't take away from those 10 years. But there were still some more good years -- 82, 84, 85, 87, 93, 96 -- that only add to it >>
You have a funny definition of "good". In 1996, Eck had an ERA over 4. On what planet is that good for a closer? In 93, his ERA was what? 3.30? Decent - but not good - for a closer.
As for his years as a starter, I don't care why he didn't perform. Not good enough or not sober enough, it doesn't matter. All that matters is he didn't get people out well enough.
WOW.