<< <i>I think a lot of cards have moved to other Internet auction houses because so many people bid in the last few seconds. I mean who wants a card that they paid hundreds or thousands for to be at $90 with a few hours to go on eBay. >>
Truth. I searched for the Maddux 1987 Donruss PSA 10. Who wants to be the poor schlep who got one bid for $69 while others sell for over $100.
I can certainly understand the frustration of not being able to get a "good deal as often as I used to", but I'm not sure I would say that sellers feel like they are OWED a profit....more like, they are just not willing to sell it unless they get a profit or at least recoup their investment. If that makes buyers mad, so be it. These things have a way of working themselves out...either no one buys it and they end up having to lower the price, or a buyer steps up and pays the price. Or, it doesn't sell and the seller gets frustrated and takes his/her items off the market and we may not see them again for a while.
My perception is that more often, it's buyers who think THEY are OWED a deal or an opportunity to buy it for a lesser amount than what it may be worth.
wait a sec. isn't the purpose of being a seller intended to earn a profit? maybe i'm missing something here.
and isn't the purpose behind bidding on an auction at least partially based on the perception that an item can be acquired for the lowest possible high bid (makes a ton of sense, hmm), and then be allowed to accrue value for a potentially better return?
Well, i am complaining........ You log on to EBAY under the assumption people wish to SELL items, the key word is sell. I for one am sick of ridiculous prices, many with BO/BIN options and the seller has no intention of using the BO, unless its 90-95% oif the BIN. I think in some cases seller will sell ONLY with BIN. If its been on there since August and had 10 offers, you really dont want to sell it! my 2
<< <i>Well, i am complaining........ You log on to EBAY under the assumption people wish to SELL items, the key word is sell. I for one am sick of ridiculous prices, many with BO/BIN options and the seller has no intention of using the BO, unless its 90-95% oif the BIN. I think in some cases seller will sell ONLY with BIN. If its been on there since August and had 10 offers, you really dont want to sell it! my 2 >>
Welcome to America. Free enterprise, where competition determines pricing. If the prices are so ridiculously high, then someone with the same item would certainly come in as the low seller and you could buy it. If there aren't any cheaper versions of the item you want to buy, then maybe YOU are the one with false hopes.
<< <i>Well, i am complaining........ You log on to EBAY under the assumption people wish to SELL items, the key word is sell. I for one am sick of ridiculous prices, many with BO/BIN options and the seller has no intention of using the BO, unless its 90-95% oif the BIN. I think in some cases seller will sell ONLY with BIN. If its been on there since August and had 10 offers, you really dont want to sell it! my 2 >>
The prices are only ridiculous if you can find the exact item somewhere else for cheaper...or a lot cheaper. Since you're voicing this concern, I would imagine you've been unable to find it, otherwise you would have already bought it and wouldn't be frustrated. Again, I understand buyers who are only willing to pay a certain amount for something, but the seller has every right to ask whatever they want for the item. NO seller is ever obligated to sell an item at the price the buyer thinks it's worth.
<< <i>Well, i am complaining........ You log on to EBAY under the assumption people wish to SELL items, the key word is sell. I for one am sick of ridiculous prices, many with BO/BIN options and the seller has no intention of using the BO, unless its 90-95% oif the BIN. I think in some cases seller will sell ONLY with BIN. If its been on there since August and had 10 offers, you really dont want to sell it! my 2 >>
The prices are only ridiculous if you can find the exact item somewhere else for cheaper...or a lot cheaper. Since you're voicing this concern, I would imagine you've been unable to find it, otherwise you would have already bought it and wouldn't be frustrated. Again, I understand buyers who are only willing to pay a certain amount for something, but the seller has every right to ask whatever they want for the item. NO seller is ever obligated to sell an item at the price the buyer thinks it's worth. >>
There are ebay sellers who list items for 150% of VCP ......... They think it's okay to ask for ridiculous prices but are "offended" when they receive an offer for 50% of VCP.
<< <i>Well, i am complaining........ You log on to EBAY under the assumption people wish to SELL items, the key word is sell. I for one am sick of ridiculous prices, many with BO/BIN options and the seller has no intention of using the BO, unless its 90-95% oif the BIN. I think in some cases seller will sell ONLY with BIN. If its been on there since August and had 10 offers, you really dont want to sell it! my 2 >>
The prices are only ridiculous if you can find the exact item somewhere else for cheaper...or a lot cheaper. Since you're voicing this concern, I would imagine you've been unable to find it, otherwise you would have already bought it and wouldn't be frustrated. Again, I understand buyers who are only willing to pay a certain amount for something, but the seller has every right to ask whatever they want for the item. NO seller is ever obligated to sell an item at the price the buyer thinks it's worth. >>
Sometimes I can find the identical item a lot cheaper. On one card I regularly buy up to a certain price point, at least half the sales over the past year were to me, with the rest being to others at prices normally one or two bid increments above my max. Never in the past 2 years has it sold for more than 50% over my max (and there are almost 20 sales during that time). Yet it sits as a BIN from several sellers for double the max sale price (or higher). When you have had the same item sitting as a BIN for years, no buyer thinks it's worth what you do.
I'm kicking around the idea of ending my 99 cent auctions. Tired of seeing my stuff sell for peanuts. That will leave PWCC and Probstein as your two 99 cent sellers. Good luck seeing their stuff sell for peanuts!
Many interesting observations. We can look at this obvious trend using several different lenses. 1. At a macro level the economy would push toward this trend. There will always be a rich class and they will always bid strongly on high end cards - it is probably better to auction them than BIN them (thus the explosion of premier auction houses), but the middle-class have taken a beating the past 5-6 years so there is probably significantly less traffic for mid level "collectible" cards. Just 2 or 3 fewer/more individuals building high end PSA sets can greatly affect realized prices in any year. 2. As a general phenomenon; I would agree with most posters that it is in the interest of the small sellers to BIN their cards and wait it out. You should not expose your cards to vagaries of traffic on ebay. 3. Shilling game. It is also obvious that another angle/trend is to co-sign your cards to Probie or PWCC and shill away...I suspect this works more than it doesn't but only for cards which you know will receive supporting bids from well known collectors. The risk is you lose 6-10% of the value if you are stuck winning your own card. In building my sets I usually end up paying around VCP either way. I pay well over VCP for BINs that I desperately need, and sometimes pay surprisingly high for PWCC/Probstein auctions - I catch bargains on occasion via auction but not enough to say I get systematic bargains because sometimes I snipe in a hammer price via auction so it seems a wash.
The one overlooked angle is that VCP is now forced to use BIN prices to update their card values. I have an extensive database of the VCP prices for the 1970s decade and I can say that this has had absolutely NO impact either way. The prices at the set level have been quite steady with logical movement either up or down (pop reports are a tremendous influence). There is no bubble or sign of collapse in my opinion. It seems the market has been quite rational and steady.
I see people trying to sell items at ridiculous prices. Many times they are people that do not know the actual value of the card. For example, search 1984 Topps Marino. When they are raw they generally sell in the $20-$30 range depending on condition, but the BINS are generally anywhere from $60 to $500 for raw (Yes, I have seen $500 for raw or a raw set). The problem is, as long as there are one or two people willing to take $20-$30, there will still be people who ALWAYS want them for $20-$30 and as long as there are a few people willing to pay well over $100 for an ungraded or BCCG9 Marino, there will be people asking that much.
<< <i>1. At a macro level the economy would push toward this trend. There will always be a rich class and they will always bid strongly on high end cards - it is probably better to auction them than BIN them (thus the explosion of premier auction houses), but the middle-class have taken a beating the past 5-6 years so there is probably significantly less traffic for mid level "collectible" cards. Just 2 or 3 fewer/more individuals building high end PSA sets can greatly affect realized prices in any year. 2. As a general phenomenon; I would agree with most posters that it is in the interest of the small sellers to BIN their cards and wait it out. You should not expose your cards to vagaries of traffic on ebay. >>
That's why I'm a fan of auctions that have an opening price at or very close to where I would otherwise set a BIN. Can't go wrong, but you can make more than you expect, too. A disadvantage is that you have to keep starting it over if it doesn't sell compared to the 30-day run time of fixed prices. Auctions like these may effectively be virtual fixed-price listings anyway, but the upsides can prevail using that concept.
Interesting read and a lot of good points made both ways. I've been burned a lot last year on let it ride and starting the card off at $0.99, then after the auction ends only getting about 10% of what the cards worth, so I switched things up now recently I have been starting my auctions within 10 to 20% of the VCP depending on interest of said player at that time. The decision to start an auction or go with BIN has to do with the listing fee as others have mentioned eBay waffles back and forth on this so if listing an auction is free that day/week or month then I do the auction. If its not then I list go with BIN for 30 days or good till cancel, monitor the trend weekly of said card and adjust the price as needed. It seems to be working I have sold some items within the 10-20% of VCP and others that went higher. This way I am giving buyers the opportunity of getting a little bargain if they choose but still protecting my investment
<< <i>I see people trying to sell items at ridiculous prices. Many times they are people that do not know the actual value of the card. For example, search 1984 Topps Marino. When they are raw they generally sell in the $20-$30 range depending on condition, but the BINS are generally anywhere from $60 to $500 for raw (Yes, I have seen $500 for raw or a raw set). The problem is, as long as there are one or two people willing to take $20-$30, there will still be people who ALWAYS want them for $20-$30 and as long as there are a few people willing to pay well over $100 for an ungraded or BCCG9 Marino, there will be people asking that much. >>
That is a really good point. It seems like a case of both buyers and sellers looking at the extremes in terms of prices realized, versus looking at the averages.
Using the above example, I just went to eBay and quickly looked up the 10 most recent "sold" prices for the 1984 Topps Dan Marino as a raw card: $35, 29, 18.50, 26, 31, 18, 15, 21, 19.99, and 19.85. The average is $23.33, but instead of a buyer wanting to pay $23, they think, "one ended recently at $15, so that is all I should pay". The seller may look at the values and think, "I should be able to get $35 for this".
When you throw in even more extreme figures as you pointed out (such as paying well into three figures for this card), then the disparity just gets worse.
Odd - I wonder if that is a consignor's items, or if that is from Brent's personal collection. The couple BINs I checked out seemed high. Very interesting!
wow. this is indeed a rather interesting development. one can only assume that Brent has decided to at least temporarily abandon a system which is seemingly being abused for the security of setting a retail platform on behalf of frightened consignors.
whoever said that people are getting sick of losing....oh wait. that was you Bobby.
Well, he just joins the long list of high priced BIN sellers. We shall see how this transpires. Memory Lane seems to have done well with their overpriced "Own It Now" catalog. Maybe it is the new trend of buyers wishing to overpay?
Is it really overpaying, or it is the value of the cards going up? After all, a card is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If "card A" sold for $100 in 2013, and sold for $150 in 2014, then it's worth $150 in 2014. If cards sell for more money, then it's only good for the value of the cards we own.
I'm all for letting the market decide what a card is worth by listing it in a $0.99 auction, but there's also nothing wrong with putting a card out there for an inflated BIN just to see if you get any nibbles.
Well...I started a thread where a 99 cent auction made a Musial $100 one week, and the very next week, that same Musial is a $150 card. Did the value of a Musial REALLY go up that much in one week? Or was it just the discrenpancy of a 99 cent auction versus a higher priced BIN?
I think about a card and I want it now. If I hit the BIN I know the card will be here in a couple days. If I see a card I want now and it's an auction it's a hassle. I have to wait 7-10 days, bid or snipe, and I don't know if I'll even win it. So it's a week and a half wasted having to think about getting the card. Given the choice between a BIN at a price I'm happy with, or playing around with an auction, I'll take the BIN.
<< <i>Well...I started a thread where a 99 cent auction made a Musial $100 one week, and the very next week, that same Musial is a $150 card. Did the value of a Musial REALLY go up that much in one week? Or was it just the discrenpancy of a 99 cent auction versus a higher priced BIN? >>
I would say it's difficult to be sure exactly what happened there...here are some possibilities though: *buyer of the second Musial thought it was nicer than the first Musial and therefore worth more *buyer of the second Musial missed seeing the first Musial auction *winner of the first Musial might have had a $200 bid but the under bidder was only at $99, and he thinks he got a steal on the card for only having to pay $100
I tend to agree with Jeff - the card is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. BIN formats create a greater possibility of having your item seen by more people, and potentially finding that buyer that values your item the same way you do.
<< <i>Well...I started a thread where a 99 cent auction made a Musial $100 one week, and the very next week, that same Musial is a $150 card. Did the value of a Musial REALLY go up that much in one week? Or was it just the discrenpancy of a 99 cent auction versus a higher priced BIN? >>
I think you're too hung up on what "THE VALUE" of a card is. Like many people have tried to say, it's worth whatever that person is willing to pay for it. Look at sales for sporting events or seats on a plane. People will pay significantly different prices for seats right next to each other.
I paid $290 for a recent ticket to Boston. If I had logged on when the price was $240, I would have bought it. But I could still afford $290, and that was what was available, so I bought that one. That's what the $150 Musial buyer did. If he saw YOUR auction and wanted to snipe or sit around and watch it, he would have bid $102. But he got on eBay, saw a card he liked, and paid the asking price. It has nothing to do with "THE VALUE", as if everyone is sitting around with a Beckett Guide ensuring that they don't stray too far.
Comments
<< <i>Edited to remove snide comment to keep the peace on this forum. >>
Saw it before the edit, and you were spot on.
<< <i>I think a lot of cards have moved to other Internet auction houses because so many people bid in the last few seconds. I mean who wants a card that they paid hundreds or thousands for to be at $90 with a few hours to go on eBay. >>
Truth. I searched for the Maddux 1987 Donruss PSA 10. Who wants to be the poor schlep who got one bid for $69 while others sell for over $100.
My perception is that more often, it's buyers who think THEY are OWED a deal or an opportunity to buy it for a lesser amount than what it may be worth.
and isn't the purpose behind bidding on an auction at least partially based on the perception that an item can be acquired for the lowest possible high bid (makes a ton of sense, hmm), and then be allowed to accrue value for a potentially better return?
<< <i>
<< <i>Edited to remove snide comment to keep the peace on this forum. >>
Saw it before the edit, and you were spot on. >>
+1
<< <i>Well, i am complaining........ You log on to EBAY under the assumption people wish to SELL items, the key word is sell. I for one am sick of ridiculous prices, many with BO/BIN options and the seller has no intention of using the BO, unless its 90-95% oif the BIN. I think in some cases seller will sell ONLY with BIN. If its been on there since August and had 10 offers, you really dont want to sell it! my 2 >>
Welcome to America. Free enterprise, where competition determines pricing. If the prices are so ridiculously high, then someone with the same item would certainly come in as the low seller and you could buy it. If there aren't any cheaper versions of the item you want to buy, then maybe YOU are the one with false hopes.
<< <i>Well, i am complaining........ You log on to EBAY under the assumption people wish to SELL items, the key word is sell. I for one am sick of ridiculous prices, many with BO/BIN options and the seller has no intention of using the BO, unless its 90-95% oif the BIN. I think in some cases seller will sell ONLY with BIN. If its been on there since August and had 10 offers, you really dont want to sell it! my 2 >>
The prices are only ridiculous if you can find the exact item somewhere else for cheaper...or a lot cheaper. Since you're voicing this concern, I would imagine you've been unable to find it, otherwise you would have already bought it and wouldn't be frustrated. Again, I understand buyers who are only willing to pay a certain amount for something, but the seller has every right to ask whatever they want for the item. NO seller is ever obligated to sell an item at the price the buyer thinks it's worth.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, i am complaining........ You log on to EBAY under the assumption people wish to SELL items, the key word is sell. I for one am sick of ridiculous prices, many with BO/BIN options and the seller has no intention of using the BO, unless its 90-95% oif the BIN. I think in some cases seller will sell ONLY with BIN. If its been on there since August and had 10 offers, you really dont want to sell it! my 2 >>
The prices are only ridiculous if you can find the exact item somewhere else for cheaper...or a lot cheaper. Since you're voicing this concern, I would imagine you've been unable to find it, otherwise you would have already bought it and wouldn't be frustrated. Again, I understand buyers who are only willing to pay a certain amount for something, but the seller has every right to ask whatever they want for the item. NO seller is ever obligated to sell an item at the price the buyer thinks it's worth. >>
There are ebay sellers who list items for 150% of VCP ......... They think it's okay to ask for ridiculous prices but are "offended" when they receive an offer for 50% of VCP.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, i am complaining........ You log on to EBAY under the assumption people wish to SELL items, the key word is sell. I for one am sick of ridiculous prices, many with BO/BIN options and the seller has no intention of using the BO, unless its 90-95% oif the BIN. I think in some cases seller will sell ONLY with BIN. If its been on there since August and had 10 offers, you really dont want to sell it! my 2 >>
The prices are only ridiculous if you can find the exact item somewhere else for cheaper...or a lot cheaper. Since you're voicing this concern, I would imagine you've been unable to find it, otherwise you would have already bought it and wouldn't be frustrated. Again, I understand buyers who are only willing to pay a certain amount for something, but the seller has every right to ask whatever they want for the item. NO seller is ever obligated to sell an item at the price the buyer thinks it's worth. >>
Sometimes I can find the identical item a lot cheaper. On one card I regularly buy up to a certain price point, at least half the sales over the past year were to me, with the rest being to others at prices normally one or two bid increments above my max. Never in the past 2 years has it sold for more than 50% over my max (and there are almost 20 sales during that time). Yet it sits as a BIN from several sellers for double the max sale price (or higher). When you have had the same item sitting as a BIN for years, no buyer thinks it's worth what you do.
Nick
edited for typos
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We can look at this obvious trend using several different lenses.
1. At a macro level the economy would push toward this trend. There will always be a rich class and they will always bid strongly on high end cards - it is probably better to auction them than BIN them (thus the explosion of premier auction houses), but the middle-class have taken a beating the past 5-6 years so there is probably significantly less traffic for mid level "collectible" cards. Just 2 or 3 fewer/more individuals building high end PSA sets can greatly affect realized prices in any year.
2. As a general phenomenon; I would agree with most posters that it is in the interest of the small sellers to BIN their cards and wait it out. You should not expose your cards to vagaries of traffic on ebay.
3. Shilling game. It is also obvious that another angle/trend is to co-sign your cards to Probie or PWCC and shill away...I suspect this works more than it doesn't but only for cards which you know will receive supporting bids from well known collectors. The risk is you lose 6-10% of the value if you are stuck winning your own card. In building my sets I usually end up paying around VCP either way. I pay well over VCP for BINs that I desperately need, and sometimes pay surprisingly high for PWCC/Probstein auctions - I catch bargains on occasion via auction but not enough to say I get systematic bargains because sometimes I snipe in a hammer price via auction so it seems a wash.
The one overlooked angle is that VCP is now forced to use BIN prices to update their card values. I have an extensive database of the VCP prices for the 1970s decade and I can say that this has had absolutely NO impact either way. The prices at the set level have been quite steady with logical movement either up or down (pop reports are a tremendous influence). There is no bubble or sign of collapse in my opinion. It seems the market has been quite rational and steady.
<< <i>1. At a macro level the economy would push toward this trend. There will always be a rich class and they will always bid strongly on high end cards - it is probably better to auction them than BIN them (thus the explosion of premier auction houses), but the middle-class have taken a beating the past 5-6 years so there is probably significantly less traffic for mid level "collectible" cards. Just 2 or 3 fewer/more individuals building high end PSA sets can greatly affect realized prices in any year.
2. As a general phenomenon; I would agree with most posters that it is in the interest of the small sellers to BIN their cards and wait it out. You should not expose your cards to vagaries of traffic on ebay. >>
That's why I'm a fan of auctions that have an opening price at or very close to where I would otherwise set a BIN. Can't go wrong, but you can make more than you expect, too. A disadvantage is that you have to keep starting it over if it doesn't sell compared to the 30-day run time of fixed prices. Auctions like these may effectively be virtual fixed-price listings anyway, but the upsides can prevail using that concept.
<< <i>I see people trying to sell items at ridiculous prices. Many times they are people that do not know the actual value of the card. For example, search 1984 Topps Marino. When they are raw they generally sell in the $20-$30 range depending on condition, but the BINS are generally anywhere from $60 to $500 for raw (Yes, I have seen $500 for raw or a raw set). The problem is, as long as there are one or two people willing to take $20-$30, there will still be people who ALWAYS want them for $20-$30 and as long as there are a few people willing to pay well over $100 for an ungraded or BCCG9 Marino, there will be people asking that much. >>
That is a really good point. It seems like a case of both buyers and sellers looking at the extremes in terms of prices realized, versus looking at the averages.
Using the above example, I just went to eBay and quickly looked up the 10 most recent "sold" prices for the 1984 Topps Dan Marino as a raw card: $35, 29, 18.50, 26, 31, 18, 15, 21, 19.99, and 19.85. The average is $23.33, but instead of a buyer wanting to pay $23, they think, "one ended recently at $15, so that is all I should pay". The seller may look at the values and think, "I should be able to get $35 for this".
When you throw in even more extreme figures as you pointed out (such as paying well into three figures for this card), then the disparity just gets worse.
PWCC
whoever said that people are getting sick of losing....oh wait. that was you Bobby.
<< <i>Maybe it is the new trend >>
Hardly new. For the past 10 years at least 90% of the listings in the card category have been BINs.
I'm all for letting the market decide what a card is worth by listing it in a $0.99 auction, but there's also nothing wrong with putting a card out there for an inflated BIN just to see if you get any nibbles.
<< <i>Well...I started a thread where a 99 cent auction made a Musial $100 one week, and the very next week, that same Musial is a $150 card. Did the value of a Musial REALLY go up that much in one week? Or was it just the discrenpancy of a 99 cent auction versus a higher priced BIN? >>
I would say it's difficult to be sure exactly what happened there...here are some possibilities though:
*buyer of the second Musial thought it was nicer than the first Musial and therefore worth more
*buyer of the second Musial missed seeing the first Musial auction
*winner of the first Musial might have had a $200 bid but the under bidder was only at $99, and he thinks he got a steal on the card for only having to pay $100
I tend to agree with Jeff - the card is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. BIN formats create a greater possibility of having your item seen by more people, and potentially finding that buyer that values your item the same way you do.
------
stupid print dots
<< <i>*buyer of the second Musial thought it was nicer than the first Musial and therefore worth more >>
The Musial in question was the exact same card. Same cert #.
<< <i>With an auction, at least 2 people need to value the card at that level. With a BIN, only one person does. >>
Bingo.
<< <i>Well...I started a thread where a 99 cent auction made a Musial $100 one week, and the very next week, that same Musial is a $150 card. Did the value of a Musial REALLY go up that much in one week? Or was it just the discrenpancy of a 99 cent auction versus a higher priced BIN? >>
I think you're too hung up on what "THE VALUE" of a card is. Like many people have tried to say, it's worth whatever that person is willing to pay for it. Look at sales for sporting events or seats on a plane. People will pay significantly different prices for seats right next to each other.
I paid $290 for a recent ticket to Boston. If I had logged on when the price was $240, I would have bought it. But I could still afford $290, and that was what was available, so I bought that one. That's what the $150 Musial buyer did. If he saw YOUR auction and wanted to snipe or sit around and watch it, he would have bid $102. But he got on eBay, saw a card he liked, and paid the asking price. It has nothing to do with "THE VALUE", as if everyone is sitting around with a Beckett Guide ensuring that they don't stray too far.