Are there less "let it ride" auctions than ever?
doog71
Posts: 405 ✭✭
Not complaining here, just wish there were more pure auctions (starting at $0.99 or lower) on Ebay than there are.
I know this isn't a new observation, but it seems there are less than ever, even on high visibility items (graded Mantles, HOF rookies) that typically generate lots of bids. Only commenting on vintage baseball items as that's what I follow.
Sure it's a seller's prerogative, they don't want to take a bath - but it sure saps the excitement that comes from the bidding experience.
Anyway, I'll survive...
I know this isn't a new observation, but it seems there are less than ever, even on high visibility items (graded Mantles, HOF rookies) that typically generate lots of bids. Only commenting on vintage baseball items as that's what I follow.
Sure it's a seller's prerogative, they don't want to take a bath - but it sure saps the excitement that comes from the bidding experience.
Anyway, I'll survive...
0
Comments
Are not necessarily so great for ethical sellers.
nor are the items being offered with ridiculous opening bids and being touted as "NO RESERVE!!!!"
the answer is obviously a resounding 'yes' while many eBay sellers are tired of losing items for opening bids due to overabundance and apathy.
as others here have pointed out, it's not really about their auctions anymore, since eBay has turned into a behemoth general store.
This is why there are so many "Buy It Now" auctions or ones with a reserve. Sellers just don't want to let material go for less than what they believe it to be worth. I truly believe if what you are selling is a quality card(s) you will normally find the market value. Lesser quality material can go for all kinds of varying amounts, depends on supply and demand as always.
One of the biggest risk areas on eBay are "let It Ride" auctions with high grade, high value vintage sportscards. If you put out a PSA 9 of a 1950s card, you will need to have some competative bidding going on to realize its value. If there are not enough collectors interested in your high grade card with a high value, you may end up selling it for far less than its value. I once won a 1952 Bowman PSA 9 baseball card for a very, very minimal amount and although elated at the deal, realized there just was not enough collector interest in the set to warrant competative bidding.
<< <i>On the vintage cards I notice that a lot of sellers are asking pie in the sky prices so those guys are obv not going to auction the cards. And a lot of the auctions seem to involve shilling so I'm guessing realized prices
Are not necessarily so great for ethical sellers. >>
Yes, this. Typically I will set a fair BIN for vintage star cards for about a week. Whatever doesn't sell I usually will start at $0.99. Also have done this with vintage (well, '80s anyway) unopened. My conscience won't allow "safety bids", shilling, etc. so I do once in a while get killed on an auction - but I usually get a fair price, sometimes more than my original asking price.
For me, once it's time to liquidate, I'd rather end up taking a little less and actually sell the cards than have them sit on Ebay for months gathering dust.
<< <i>I start all my auctions between .99 and $9.99 and let them go to the end. Often I get offers for a certain amount if I want to close the auction and accept the offer but I never do...I "let them ride". Now I will say that most of the time the final bid will be at or above the offer I received but not always. As a seller you are always taking a chance when you put items up for auction that you expect to sell at what you paid for it or higher. I have lost money on items in which the buyer got a great deal, yet I have made money on items I had hoped I would have minimal loss.
This is why there are so many "Buy It Now" auctions or ones with a reserve. Sellers just don't want to let material go for less than what they believe it to be worth. I truly believe if what you are selling is a quality card(s) you will normally find the market value. Lesser quality material can go for all kinds of varying amounts, depends on supply and demand as always.
One of the biggest risk areas on eBay are "let It Ride" auctions with high grade, high value vintage sportscards. If you put out a PSA 9 of a 1950s card, you will need to have some competative bidding going on to relaize its value. If there are not enough collectors interested in your high grade card with a high value, you may end up selling it for far less than its value. I once won a 1952 Bowman PSA 9 baseball card for a very, very minimal amount and although elated at the deal, realized there just was not enough collector interest in the set to warrant competative bidding. >>
Good points. Typically the cards I sell are in the $20-$400 range. I don't know if I'd have the guts to list a $5K card as an auction, especially if I had that much into it. But even the more lower to mid-level stuff ($20-$300) doesn't get auctioned much. I guess lots of folks have gotten burned.
I tend to pick my listing style (fixed price or auction) based on what free listing promotions I get offered. I accept the final value fees, but listing fees are a deterrent that keep me from listing. Any items I list for the first time go to auction, and I'll run it through 2 or 3 times if it hasn't sold. After that, if I get an email from ebay for free fixed price listing, I switch everything to that. If the message instead comes through as free auction listings, I'll relist that way again if it isn't currently already running as fixed price. Most of the time the offers say "by invitation only" and it feels like those come through about half and half auction vs. fixed price for the ones I receive.
<< <i>Good points. Typically the cards I sell are in the $20-$400 range. I don't know if I'd have the guts to list a $5K card as an auction, especially if I had that much into it. But even the more lower to mid-level stuff ($20-$300) doesn't get auctioned much. I guess lots of folks have gotten burned. >>
I know I have gotten burned a few times recently. I recently sold a 1953 Satchell Paige PSA 5 for $215 when everybody and their brother is getting high $200's - $300+. I had more than that in the card. Lucikily, I like gambling, so losing money is nothing new to me. In between losing money, DSR star dingers, and every other roadblock getting thrown at small sellers, this really should be no surprise at the ever-dwindling number of 99 cent auction sellers. I am trying to hold out as long as I can (I am a 99 cent auction seller), but it is tough.
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<< <i>Good points. Typically the cards I sell are in the $20-$400 range. I don't know if I'd have the guts to list a $5K card as an auction, especially if I had that much into it. But even the more lower to mid-level stuff ($20-$300) doesn't get auctioned much. I guess lots of folks have gotten burned. >>
I know I have gotten burned a few times recently. I recently sold a 1953 Satchell Paige PSA 5 for $215 when everybody and their brother is getting high $200's - $300+. I had more than that in the card. Lucikily, I like gambling, so losing money is nothing new to me. In between losing money, DSR star dingers, and every other roadblock getting thrown at small sellers, this really should be no surprise at the ever-dwindling number of 99 cent auction sellers. I am trying to hold out as long as I can (I am a 99 cent auction seller), but it is tough. >>
I was glad you had the PSA 3 '58 Mantle I won from you as an auction - I think you ended up getting a fair price for it, but I almost never do BINs for graded Mantles because literally 99% of asking prices are crazy. That makes the options few when looking for well centered examples of graded Mantles.
I think that's fine but if you put a card up for auction, the price it gets should be an indicator of the market value of that card (I know this may not be true in all cases but geneally speaking). Just accept it. Everybody seems to think their card should be worth more.
In some ways it has made me a more disciplined buyer. I don't buy spur of the moment stuff anymore since it takes longer for me to resell if I end up not keeping it.
<< <i>There is no need to take the risk as a small seller when you can do a BIN and wait it out. I set my BIN prices at fair levels and done OK, especially on modern football. I'm done subsidizing someone else's good deals. >>
I love this!! I look hard to find "good deals", and when I see my auction sales sell for less than what I paid, and the winning bidder turns around and puts it on Ebay at a higher BIN price and sells it - Well, that just means I didn't do something right........
<< <i>I think that's fine but if you put a card up for auction, the price it gets should be an indicator of the market value of that card (I know this may not be true in all cases but geneally speaking). Just accept it. Everybody seems to think their card should be worth more. >>
The assumption there, though, is that "the market" saw a seller's listing in that short, arbitrary time period. I think that's what sellers are afraid of. If I post my 1948 Bowman Musial as a BIN at current market price, I'm going to sell it eventually and get what I wanted. But if I start it at a low auction price, it just might be an unlucky week and I miss out on a couple hundred dollars.
You did everything right until you chose how to sell the card. You look hard to get good deals, which means participating in a lot of different auction venues and taking advantage of items going for less than you think they're worth. Then rather than trying to sell them for what you think they're worth via BIN, you dump it on Ebay and give other dealers like yourself the opportunity to pick up good deals. In that brief 7-10 auction period if you don't capture the attention of two collectors who will battle it out past the dealer buying level then you'll be lucky to get your money back. If you're buying the right cards and pricing them right the BIN will set you up with good retail buyers when they're in the market to buy your card.
And you can bet that in many cases the winning bidder had a snipe in that $9-$10 range, or would have opened them up regardless if they started at $.99 or $9.99.
<< <i>Today, I see lots of cards in VCP that have a $0.99 or sub $2 close while the average is $9-$10.
And you can bet that in many cases the winning bidder had a snipe in that $9-$10 range, or would have opened them up regardless if they started at $.99 or $9.99. >>
Probably. The other killer with a $0.99 close is that the fees almost make it a zero net for the seller. Probstein charges $1 plus a % for items closing under $10. I wonder if an item that sells at $0.99 requires the consignor to cough up some additional dough to cover the fees.
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<< <i>I think that's fine but if you put a card up for auction, the price it gets should be an indicator of the market value of that card (I know this may not be true in all cases but geneally speaking). Just accept it. Everybody seems to think their card should be worth more. >>
The assumption there, though, is that "the market" saw a seller's listing in that short, arbitrary time period. I think that's what sellers are afraid of. If I post my 1948 Bowman Musial as a BIN at current market price, I'm going to sell it eventually and get what I wanted. But if I start it at a low auction price, it just might be an unlucky week and I miss out on a couple hundred dollars. >>
That's what reserves are for!
My point is that people often over value their items. As in the case of the Jordan card I was talking about, the seller ended the listing twice because the auction was less than $25 during both auctions. I think that's a pretty strong hint.
<< <i>Reserves would be good for that if Ebay didn't charge you for having a reserve. If your reserve is under $200 Ebay charges you $2.00 if reserve isn't met. If it's over $199.99 Ebay charges you 1% of the reserve price up to a maximum charge of $50. Listing it BIN or with a high starting price only costs you the listing fee which in many cases will be free with all the free listings they offer. A free auction listing with a reserve will still cost you $2 if reserve isn't hit. >>
I did not know all that. I retract My previous "reserve" statement!
When so many are having experiences where even highly desirable cards aren't reaching expected levels via straight bidding, it makes one wonder. Especially when there aren't even that many "real" auctions to begin with, you'd think there would be even more action on those...but apparently not.
<< <i>Sometimes I wonder if the card market is as strong as some feel it is right now.
When so many are having experiences where even highly desirable cards aren't reaching expected levels via straight bidding, it makes one wonder. Especially when there aren't even that many "real" auctions to begin with, you'd think there would be even more action on those...but apparently not. >>
I got ridiculed here when I posted about chasing down a mid grade vintage set starting early last year and claiming that I could do so because prices were softer for mid grade(ex to nrmt) raw cards than in the past. Via Greg morris, zorbacca, and other .99 starting auctions, I was able to get a whole lot of very nice cards at bargain prices, including stars and high numbers.
Then again, an awful lot of posters have agendas and don't loudly disclose them.
<< <i>I quit running auctions this past summer when I sold off part of my collection to cover this year's tuition. It was mainly t206s, t205s, Goudeys (33-34-SKs), and Delongs. I would post about 12-20 items per week at auction (.99 no reserve) and after three weeks I was exasperated. Almost everything came back under expectation (minus a few surprises.) Not only that but I also had to file NPB on about 15% of the auctions. So I listed the remainder of the inventory as BIN/BO at 10% over what I felt fair market value would be. Within a month I had moved all but a handful of items either at the ballooned BIN price or by negotiating a BO close to what I valued the items at. I honestly feel that if I had run auctions the rest of the way I would have left a lot of money on the table. >>
Exactly. If you are a small time seller and don't get the traffic of a PWCC or Probstein, BIN is the way to go. Those people that say "the auction price is the market" are wrong. An auction would be the market if all of the other factors were assumed to be static. An auction is influenced by many factors - time, # of eyeballs that see it, technology crashes, bad scans, news events, seller feedback, etc - that cause pricing anomalies. Sometimes this works in favor of the seller, sometimes for the buyer.
Only over the long term and with a larger sample size can you say what the "market price" really is.
<< <i>Sometimes I wonder if the card market is as strong as some feel it is right now.
When so many are having experiences where even highly desirable cards aren't reaching expected levels via straight bidding, it makes one wonder. Especially when there aren't even that many "real" auctions to begin with, you'd think there would be even more action on those...but apparently not. >>
The card market is very strong right now. The ebay auctions are only a part of the hobby. Prices are high right now because people can afford to wait for the right buyer.
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<< <i>Sometimes I wonder if the card market is as strong as some feel it is right now.
When so many are having experiences where even highly desirable cards aren't reaching expected levels via straight bidding, it makes one wonder. Especially when there aren't even that many "real" auctions to begin with, you'd think there would be even more action on those...but apparently not. >>
The card market is very strong right now. The ebay auctions are only a part of the hobby. Prices are high right now because people can afford to wait for the right buyer. >>
I'd agree that a select few corners of the market are strong, but something is up when as many people that frequent Ebay consistently aren't bidding up desirable collectibles, even when they have a shot at getting it at a bargain.
Not being Chicken Little here, I want the market to be strong. I guess it's in how you look at it. Optimist = high prices because people can afford to wait for right buyer. Less of an optimist = High BIN prices are set because people are taking a bath when leaving it up to bidders.
Either way - I'd love to see more auctions because it's more exciting that way, but I sure don't expect sellers to accommodate me!
However it has made more disciplined as buyer, so I no longer take a chance on items just for resale. I only buy quality items and even on ebay quality still gets top dollar in an auction or buy it now.
I think for most widely traded cards, if allowed to run at auction, it will all balance out. Higher grade examples will tend to sell at the higher end of the spectrum and lesser grade examples will be at the bottom. For thinly traded items or items where there may be a limited market, I think BIN's tend to be the best avenue.
eBay is a large marketplace, but it is not the only venue for selling cards. Not exploring and finding the most advantageous option for given items is not a sound business choice.
<< <i>Reserves would be good for that if Ebay didn't charge you for having a reserve. If your reserve is under $200 Ebay charges you $2.00 if reserve isn't met. If it's over $199.99 Ebay charges you 1% of the reserve price up to a maximum charge of $50. Listing it BIN or with a high starting price only costs you the listing fee which in many cases will be free with all the free listings they offer. A free auction listing with a reserve will still cost you $2 if reserve isn't hit. >>
Reserves are pointless, and their whole concept annoys buyers and steers them to other sellers. If you want to do a reserve, just start your auction at that value instead. If you get that, great. If it sells for more, even better, but you didn't get less than you wanted, and you will be charged a lower final value fee % than if you do a fixed price listing.
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<< <i>Reserves would be good for that if Ebay didn't charge you for having a reserve. If your reserve is under $200 Ebay charges you $2.00 if reserve isn't met. If it's over $199.99 Ebay charges you 1% of the reserve price up to a maximum charge of $50. Listing it BIN or with a high starting price only costs you the listing fee which in many cases will be free with all the free listings they offer. A free auction listing with a reserve will still cost you $2 if reserve isn't hit. >>
Reserves are pointless, and their whole concept annoys buyers and steers them to other sellers. If you want to do a reserve, just start your auction at that value instead. If you get that, great. If it sells for more, even better, but you didn't get less than you wanted, and you will be charged a lower final value fee % than if you do a fixed price listing. >>
I think the fees are the same for auctions and buy it now.
<< <i>Part of this is ebay's fault. >>
I think part of it comes from flippers as well. Some people seek out bargains with the sole intention of flipping them. Others happen to be well versed in a particular set or space and while searching out items they still need, see a bargain on something they already have. I think much of these items picked up with the intent to profit are put up with a BIN to ensure their cost + fees are covered with at least some profit left over.
Meanwhile, some sellers see their item relisted (and in some cases) sold for more and feel like they left money on the table... so they abandon auctions out of frustration.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with flipping, I've done it myself, but there are consequences to it as there are most things in life.
Snorto~
I have noticed fewer auctions as well and I can't blame sellers for that as I only sell fixed price for reasons already stated. When buying , I do look at auctions before BIN listings because I think the best buy prices are generally had through auctions. You just have to be patient and be willing to be the underbidder in auctions before getting the card you want. Just this week, I have been the direct underbidder in 5 out of the 6 items I have bid on. While I wish I had won the items, I am happy I didn't overpay for them as well.
<< <i>Just this week, I have been the direct underbidder in 5 out of the 6 items I have bid on. While I wish I had won the items, I am happy I didn't overpay for them as well. >>
Sounds like you underpaid. All 6 will probably wind up via BIN, and all 6 will sell higher than the auction price. Just depends on how much or how little profit margin you want!
now, more than ever, i feel no sense of disappointment being runner-up and it happens a lot. my salvation comes from seeing so many cards which eluded me the first time and then reappear with a shot at a lower price point, whether they be raw or in a slab.
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<< <i>Reserves would be good for that if Ebay didn't charge you for having a reserve. If your reserve is under $200 Ebay charges you $2.00 if reserve isn't met. If it's over $199.99 Ebay charges you 1% of the reserve price up to a maximum charge of $50. Listing it BIN or with a high starting price only costs you the listing fee which in many cases will be free with all the free listings they offer. A free auction listing with a reserve will still cost you $2 if reserve isn't hit. >>
Reserves are pointless, and their whole concept annoys buyers and steers them to other sellers. If you want to do a reserve, just start your auction at that value instead. If you get that, great. If it sells for more, even better, but you didn't get less than you wanted, and you will be charged a lower final value fee % than if you do a fixed price listing. >>
I think the fees are the same for auctions and buy it now. >>
The fees might be the same for buy it now option used on an auction-style listing (not sure), but fixed price listing buy-it-now FVF is higher than an auction listing.
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<< <i>Reserves would be good for that if Ebay didn't charge you for having a reserve. If your reserve is under $200 Ebay charges you $2.00 if reserve isn't met. If it's over $199.99 Ebay charges you 1% of the reserve price up to a maximum charge of $50. Listing it BIN or with a high starting price only costs you the listing fee which in many cases will be free with all the free listings they offer. A free auction listing with a reserve will still cost you $2 if reserve isn't hit. >>
Reserves are pointless, and their whole concept annoys buyers and steers them to other sellers. If you want to do a reserve, just start your auction at that value instead. If you get that, great. If it sells for more, even better, but you didn't get less than you wanted, and you will be charged a lower final value fee % than if you do a fixed price listing. >>
I think the fees are the same for auctions and buy it now. >>
The fees might be the same for buy it now option used on an auction-style listing (not sure), but fixed price listing buy-it-now FVF is higher than an auction listing. >>
Whoops, I stand corrected. It used to be the case, but apparently that changed with the most recent revisions to ebay's fee structure, so FVF is the same for auction or fixed, at 10%. Sorry about that, I never even noticed this change, though it hasn't been that way for very long.
<< <i>I think the fees are the same for auctions and buy it now. >>
This is correct. The FVF's for standard categories (not real estate, cars, etc) is 10% for auction-style or BIN. Fees are slightly less for having an ebay store.
I moved to BIN's a couple of years ago, I don't mind waiting until I get the price I'm looking for. It's also easier to offer free shipping on all my items, that amount is incorporated in the price. I sometimes do auctions, but unless I'm liquidating stuff and just want them gone, I start the price at what I hope to get or slightly less. As a buyer, I still look at auctions first though.
I have found I have the most success with auctions (instead of fixed price BIN) for selling items when they are marketed to be sure they're seen by the target audience. This means that if I have an item that fits on a master player set registry that most participants do not have, I email the guys on that list with the auction item number and let them sort out among them what the item is worth by bidding against each other. I haven't received any messages in reply asking me not to let them know about items for sale, but I am also careful not to write to participants whose interest level might not warrant the note.
<< <i>Part of this is ebay's fault. They have made auctions less attractive to small sellers like me.
However it has made more disciplined as buyer, so I no longer take a chance on items just for resale. I only buy quality items and even on ebay quality still gets top dollar in an auction or buy it now. >>
I think part of the fault also lies with bidders themselves. There are fewer top sellers these days because bidders are quick to ding a seller's shipping DSRs even if the small sellers are offering better shipping fee structures than Probstein, PWCC and DSL.
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<< <i>I start all my auctions between .99 and $9.99 and let them go to the end. Often I get offers for a certain amount if I want to close the auction and accept the offer but I never do...I "let them ride". Now I will say that most of the time the final bid will be at or above the offer I received but not always. As a seller you are always taking a chance when you put items up for auction that you expect to sell at what you paid for it or higher. I have lost money on items in which the buyer got a great deal, yet I have made money on items I had hoped I would have minimal loss.
This is why there are so many "Buy It Now" auctions or ones with a reserve. Sellers just don't want to let material go for less than what they believe it to be worth. I truly believe if what you are selling is a quality card(s) you will normally find the market value. Lesser quality material can go for all kinds of varying amounts, depends on supply and demand as always.
One of the biggest risk areas on eBay are "let It Ride" auctions with high grade, high value vintage sportscards. If you put out a PSA 9 of a 1950s card, you will need to have some competative bidding going on to relaize its value. If there are not enough collectors interested in your high grade card with a high value, you may end up selling it for far less than its value. I once won a 1952 Bowman PSA 9 baseball card for a very, very minimal amount and although elated at the deal, realized there just was not enough collector interest in the set to warrant competative bidding. >>
Good points. Typically the cards I sell are in the $20-$400 range. I don't know if I'd have the guts to list a $5K card as an auction, especially if I had that much into it. But even the more lower to mid-level stuff ($20-$300) doesn't get auctioned much. I guess lots of folks have gotten burned. >>
All outstanding points and agree 100%. Plus Ebay is offering up thousands of free fixed price 30 day listings, so you can see where their bias lies.
hobby is trying to profit by flipping cards.
I think many of the "true Collectors" have completed many of their desired sets and are now removed from the Supply and Demand asspect
of the vast majority of cards. That only leaves the "speculative buyers" trying to deal many of these cards amongst themselves.
The vast majority of cards were grossly over priced in the first place by the over hyped arrival of TPGing and the false sense
of rarity based on self proclaimed population reports of any number of companys out there. Are there certain known issues
that are tougher condition cards out there? absolutely!
Those who fell prey to the unrealistic prices and hype hopeing for easy profits now find themselves stuck
with cards that they have no choice but to list with a BIN price because, the now realistic market price(Open auction),
No longer supports the unrealistic prices many fell pret to in the first place.
The bottom line: To many people in this hobby think that they are automatically owed a profit on these cards.
Cards are worth what someone is willing to pay and NOT what any price guide, VCP or previous ebay sales might dictate.
YOU are NOT owed a profit on anything.
I know the "unopened" market is booming with more Speculative "Buying for Profit" but I also believe the bottom
will eventually fall out of that area as well on most everything but the rarer stuff.
The sooner we can rid the hobby of "Profiteering" The sooner the Nostalgia collectors can get back to enjoying
the hobby without parasites trying to rape them for profit.
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Okay wow, that's pretty bad.