forum member lands an extremely rare colonial counterfeit halfpenny - this may be piece #5 known

MsMorrisine

Identifying a Colonial: Machin's Mills?

MsMorrisine

I'm wow'ed at the lack of wow's on that thread.

I was wondering if anyone else was watching.

I'm obviously excited. Great find.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>I'm wow'ed at the lack of wow's on that thread. >>


It's a colonial so most people on this forum don't know enough about it to care.

coindeuce

If it is a contemporary counterfeit, is there an identified maker of these?

Do enough counterfeit Colonials command premiums that would coincide with genuine examples as to warrant collecting counterfeits only ?

ambro51

Counterfeit in this case means nothing. Strictly a term as Machins Mill made these pieces alongside its normal "products". It's a non regal counterfeit obverse, muled to an INDE ET lib reverse used for Conneticuts. BTW ... It's pronounced MAY'-chins

ambro51

To the point Middie that's why I once suggested a "Colonials" forum. Slower moving but no doubt a favorite stop by many...

baddogss

Saw the original post and thought the same thing. Pretty amazing find.

Icollecteverything

<< <i>I'm wow'ed at the lack of wow's on that thread.

I was wondering if anyone else was watching.

I'm obviously excited. Great find. >>



I was temporarily speechless, I couldn't even spell WOW.

jmski52

Lot's of interesting stuff from over there at Orange Lake.

Whit

Good evening, all:

I am that fortunate forum member who is having the privilege of handling the Machin's Mills colonial. But I am not the owner!

Two Octobers ago (if my memory serves), I posted a Vermont colonial that was owned by a retired couple here in northwest CT … not collectors, but friends of the family who were wishing to dispose of a small accumulation of coins acquired by happenstance. The feedback on that coin indicated that it was the scarce RR-3 variety. A pleasant surprise! At that time, they also showed me a second colonial ... the only other colonial they had ... which the Redbook could not help me identify, but which I expected to be a common issue, not at all as interesting as the Vermont. Well, that second colonial was the piece I posted yesterday, consensus on which lands it in the R7 range. Amazing!

I have emailed the couple with this news, and have given them links to the original post and a website that gives the history of Machin's Mills. I am urging them not to pop any champagne corks until a top-tier auction house accepts the piece. But in the meantime, I say again that it is a privilege to handle this piece of history. And I thank all of those who weighed in on its identification.

Good night.

Whit

Type2

Very cool, Nice to see some are getting the help they need on coins they know nada about. Good for them they have a helping hand like you.

ambro51

It's good you came here to ID this. If they choose to sell.... I'm cautious about TPGs since they MAY botch the attribution (initially) and will no doubt stuff it in a details or damaged or corroded holder. Stacks Bowers WILL treat this Coun with the attention required plus probably a full page write up in the catalog.

ricko

Very impressive find.... please continue to update the forum on the status of this coin. Cheers, RickO

tincup

The lack of 'wows' on the other post... may be due to the time of year. At least for myself, still having a somewhat hectic schedule and time on the forum is related to that.

A fantastic find! Whit, you definitely will have to see if that couple have any more coins tucked away. Their batting average is pretty good so far!

darktone

I think most people here don't know enough about these to understand its rarity and value- me included. What's it worth?

ambro51

What's it worth? Maybe one or two full dress Harleys The thing to remember is there is a rabid market for extremely rare colonials that come fresh on the market. It's a textbook case here of low supply high demand. Linking up a group of specialist bidders is the work of the Auction house/cataloger OR a Good Dealer with proper contacts

Treashunt

Technically, Machins Mills = contemporary counterfeit

Or, So I believe

novacaesarea

Hi Whit and Mid Life,

I have not been on for a while, but to put it in your terms Mid Life, as a Colonial Collector.....let me say WOW!! You don't see one of these everyday. And this was cherry picked? That is something. I have only seen a few of these....ever........

And very desirable as a cross over coin for Machin's Collectors and Connecticut Collectors.

BTW, I did notice it mentioned a little bit, but they are called Machin's Mills coinage because they were made at Mills owned by Thomas Machin in upstate New York (Newburgh). Thomas Machin was the Revolutionary War hero that came up with idea (and manufacture) of putting a very fortified chain across the Hudson River to impede British War ships from heading up the Hudson towards West Point. He was a protege of New York Governor George Clinton (later to replace Arron Burr as Thomas Jefferson's Vice President). As such, the Governor turned a blind eye towards Machin's counterfeiting activity. He may have been the only pre federal manufacturer of coins to ever make money at it.

I don't like to get into grades or values, but definitely a coin that would garner attention if it came to market. Really thank you for sharing this one.

Best,

nova caesarea

CaptHenway

<< <i>To the point Middie that's why I once suggested a "Colonials" forum. Slower moving but no doubt a favorite stop by many... >>



Perhaps a "Colonials & Territorials & Etc. Forum?" In other words, everything in the Redbook that is not legal tender U.S. coinage?

IrishMikey

<< <i>Counterfeit in this case means nothing. Strictly a term as Machins Mill made these pieces alongside its normal "products". It's a non regal counterfeit obverse, muled to an INDE ET lib reverse used for Conneticuts. BTW ... It's pronounced MAY'-chins >>


Interesting. I had heard it pronounced "mock'-inz" by several Colonial specialists over the years. I was never sure which was right...

jessewvu

where were these minted and were they circulated?

pcunix

<< <i>where were these minted and were they circulated? >>



Newburgh NY area and yes. Google "Machin's Mill" or James Atlee.

There was a really badly worn one in the collection I inherited. I didn't know what it was and sold it thinking it was just a badly worn British coin.

I recently have bought a common 1787 in a bit nicer shape than that one. My question is their legality in Britain (just curious). Obviously counterfeit, but does it matter?

About Machin's Mills

Zoins

<< <i>

<< <i>I'm wow'ed at the lack of wow's on that thread. >>


It's a colonial so most people on this forum don't know enough about it to care. >>


Is this more of a colonial counterfeit of a British coin?

This sounds like a great find But I can also see how it would appear British before you get to know the background.

pcunix

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I'm wow'ed at the lack of wow's on that thread. >>


It's a colonial so most people on this forum don't know enough about it to care. >>


Is this more of a colonial counterfeit of a British coin? >>



Depends on your point of view. The link I gave above says that technically they were not counterfeits, but were illegal. That sounds like lawyer talk to me :-)

Zoins

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I'm wow'ed at the lack of wow's on that thread. >>


It's a colonial so most people on this forum don't know enough about it to care. >>


Is this more of a colonial counterfeit of a British coin? >>



Depends on your point of view. The link I gave above says that technically they were not counterfeits, but were illegal. That sounds like lawyer talk to me :-) >>



Is that like saying modern Chinese Morgan Dollars are not counterfeits? They are after all legal where they are minted. If we treated these the same way, perhaps the Chinese Morgan dollars could be called "Non-Federal" the same way "Non-Regal" is used by some collectors.

By the way, the Machin's Mills page on the website you linked seems to say they were counterfeits: "In order to make a profit Machin and Atlee began to produce counterfeit British halfpence [...] The illegal coining operation continued at Machin's Mills until around early 1790"