It's a close call, but I think you'll get a Genuine for "environmental damage" on that one. Sometimes they are generous to early copper with surface problems, but it seems to apply more so to 1793 cents for some reason. In any event, a '96 Cap in this grade is hard to find without major damage, so it's a very collectible piece.
I find there is little need to slab early copper, unless it's a high grade type piece. I feel like a Randall Hoard cent in MS65 needs to be slabbed to realize its full market potential. However, a coin like a 1796 Cap that's of interest in any grade doesn't need to be slabbed.
The issue is the pososity and what their threshold is. There really is no correct answer to my question because with EAC there are worse coins in slabs and better ones have been bagged. I think its a nice coin.
I do not think it will slab due to micro corrosion, but I also think it has been smoothed. So, no way, IMO. Still, it has a pleasing look, so enjoy it for what it is.
<< <i>I do not think it will slab due to micro corrosion, but I also think it has been smoothed. So, no way, IMO. Still, it has a pleasing look, so enjoy it for what it is. >>
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
Micro porosity I can handle. Altered surface, no way! Its going back. This forum is such a treasure of knowledgeable people willing to help. Its much appreciated.
Is this the coin in question? It appears that the seller wanted to be very specific about the coin not being enhanced or altered in any way.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Okay, there are a lot more people here, much more knowledgeable than me who haven't offered an opinion yet but I think it's a nice coin, especially for what it is. I don't see any smoothing or else the rest of the metal would look strange, and it doesn't. I don't see the look of any recoloring either. I do see some probable environmental damage on some aged old copper, and my guess is that it wouldn't grade.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Okay, there are a lot more people here, much more knowledgeable than me who haven't offered an opinion yet but I think it's a nice coin, especially for what it is. I don't see any smoothing or else the rest of the metal would look strange, and it doesn't. I don't see the look of any recoloring either. I do see some probable environmental damage on some aged old copper, and my guess is that it wouldn't grade. >>
Ankur is a copper collector and I put much value in his opinion. I personally do not understand smoothing very well. Its something that has only recently been appearing on slabs and I do not know what the indicators are.
I was watching this coin on ebay but decided not to bid because it looked like, in those scans, some of the hair and eye details had been strengthened. I don't see evidence of the re-engraving so much in the new photos, but the details still look a little "off." Anybody else see this? And yes, the surfaces were likely smoothed.
If it were just the porosity, I think it's 50/50 whether the coin would slab, but with that combined with the funky surfaces/details, I don't see this straight-grading.
I think it is impossible to say without seeing the coin in hand, and even then, in borderline cases, it may end up in a graded holder someday after multiple attempts.
There are a lot more 1796 Liberty caps around than 1796 Draped Busts, so I believe PCGS is a little less lenient on the liberty caps.
I would say that getting this coin into a graded slab is a throw of the dice. There are pieces that are not as nice as this in graded slabs, and there are pieces that are better than this that are in body bags or "genuine" slabs. My record with getting early copper coins into slabs has been mediocre. That's why I only by early copper in slabs IF I WANT IT IN A SLAB. Getting it done yourself is a minefield.
I think that that this piece has had some corrosion removed from it, but when it comes to early copper that is not unusual. Copper is the most reactive of all of the classic coinage metals (gold silver and copper), the early pieces were very prone to environmental damage. In fact in the well circulated grades, it's almost a given.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I think they'd call questionable color. The interior of the R and A on the reverse shouldn't be bright like that. But that's looking at a picture..I'm thinking this issue should be a darker color in hand.
To put this into perspective, here is a nice 1794 large cent that rated a body bag years ago.
You can scrub old silver and gold coins to within an inch of their lives, and they will still get a grade; but if you have an early copper coin that might had anything done to it, it won't grade.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Slight but not impossible that it would slab....still not a bad example of the date though....both hairstyles are tough to find nice. Me, I know my example was burnished, no need to bother submitting it, but it was priced accordingly, and does have a Tom Reynolds and Rod Burress pedigree, FWIW:
Comments
bob
Can you re-shoot or does it look like this in hand?
I find there is little need to slab early copper, unless it's a high grade type piece. I feel like a Randall Hoard cent in MS65 needs to be slabbed to realize its full market potential. However, a coin like a 1796 Cap that's of interest in any grade doesn't need to be slabbed.
My Early Large Cents
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Surfaces look like they may have been smoothed... >>
Yikes. What do you see that is indicative of that?
My Early Large Cents
I'll tell you what though- that would look stunningly perfect in my Library of Coins type set!
peacockcoins
My Early Large Cents
Tom
<< <i>I do not think it will slab due to micro corrosion, but I also think it has been smoothed. So, no way, IMO. Still, it has a pleasing look, so enjoy it for what it is. >>
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
My Early Large Cents
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Is this the coin in question? It appears that the seller wanted to be very specific about the coin not being enhanced or altered in any way. >>
Thats the one. His pic looks much better than the coin does in hand though.
My Early Large Cents
<< <i>Okay, there are a lot more people here, much more knowledgeable than me who haven't offered an opinion yet but I think it's a nice coin, especially for what it is. I don't see any smoothing or else the rest of the metal would look strange, and it doesn't. I don't see the look of any recoloring either. I do see some probable environmental damage on some aged old copper, and my guess is that it wouldn't grade. >>
Ankur is a copper collector and I put much value in his opinion. I personally do not understand smoothing very well. Its something that has only recently been appearing on slabs and I do not know what the indicators are.
My Early Large Cents
My Early Large Cents
<< <i>
<< <i>Surfaces look like they may have been smoothed... >>
Yikes. What do you see that is indicative of that? >>
Displacement of metal, especially the high points often is an indication of whizzing/buffing/highly polishing.
I think that it looks "off" because the porosity is waaaaay too uniform, at least to my way of thinking and looking at a lot of LC's
If it were just the porosity, I think it's 50/50 whether the coin would slab, but with that combined with the funky surfaces/details, I don't see this straight-grading.
There are a lot more 1796 Liberty caps around than 1796 Draped Busts, so I believe PCGS is a little less lenient on the liberty caps.
I think that that this piece has had some corrosion removed from it, but when it comes to early copper that is not unusual. Copper is the most reactive of all of the classic coinage metals (gold silver and copper), the early pieces were very prone to environmental damage. In fact in the well circulated grades, it's almost a given.
You can scrub old silver and gold coins to within an inch of their lives, and they will still get a grade; but if you have an early copper coin that might had anything done to it, it won't grade.
find nice.
Me, I know my example was burnished, no need to bother submitting it, but it was priced accordingly, and does have a Tom
Reynolds and Rod Burress pedigree, FWIW:
Pcgs vg8 CAC
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!