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Heritage Newman photos - good, bad, or acceptable? (warning: lots of images!)
lkeigwin
Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭
Over the last few days I spent more than 20 hours pouring over 37 Newman coins. I couldn't help but look up the prices (hmm) and along the way I compared HA's images to the coins in hand and the results I was getting.
In another thread a forum member said this: "Having viewed the sale, an observation about the photos online and in print. I found the images in the slabs to be so horrendously off as to be useless... Thank goodness they are at the bottom of the page. However, the top-of-page images were very accurate in terms of brightness and nuances of coloration. True elsewhere, but in particular with my area of interest, coins with lustre"
Whoa. This is just the opposite of what I thought. But until now I didn't get to study any. So, for amusement I picked a dozen or so of different types, toning and condition and contrasted them.
I am not saying that only my images are correct or that they are perfect. But I will say that I spent a lot of time trying to get realistic ones that represent the appearance of coins in hand. I was not interested in corner-cases.
Coins were hit with lots of vertical halogen light, high above and nearly square to the coins; a high quality 200mm macro lens was used on a copy stand. Shooting distance was roughly 24" (end of lens to coin). Images were shot raw and post-processed.
I was pretty surprised by many of the HA images. The color, saturation, and exposure often seemed extreme. But to their credit, the images of the raw coins were very well detailed, superbly crisp, and large for easy viewing.
I thought the catalog would be a keeper but I'm not sure. I wonder if some bidders made decisions based on catalog images, and how they'll feel about the coins when they arrive.
Below are the results, presented in this order, along with the sale price (just for fun).
Catalog photos
Slab photos (cropped and resized)
My photos
Lance.
1805-4 50c O.103a AU55 $19975
1807 50c O.112 XF40 $1292
1814 50c O.106a NGC AU58 $5875
1821 50c O.102 NGC AU55 $1233
1827 50c O.110 NGC AU58 $2467
1828 50c O.107 NGC MS62 $2585
1828 50c O.113 NGC MS63 $2350
1832 H10 LM 8.4 NGC MS66 $4406
1838 10c Fortin 108a NGC MS66+ $6756
1862 3CS NGC MS66 $1880
1871 25c NGC PF67★ cameo $9987
1875-CC 20c MS63 $4406
1893-S 25c NGC MS64 $2232
In another thread a forum member said this: "Having viewed the sale, an observation about the photos online and in print. I found the images in the slabs to be so horrendously off as to be useless... Thank goodness they are at the bottom of the page. However, the top-of-page images were very accurate in terms of brightness and nuances of coloration. True elsewhere, but in particular with my area of interest, coins with lustre"
Whoa. This is just the opposite of what I thought. But until now I didn't get to study any. So, for amusement I picked a dozen or so of different types, toning and condition and contrasted them.
I am not saying that only my images are correct or that they are perfect. But I will say that I spent a lot of time trying to get realistic ones that represent the appearance of coins in hand. I was not interested in corner-cases.
Coins were hit with lots of vertical halogen light, high above and nearly square to the coins; a high quality 200mm macro lens was used on a copy stand. Shooting distance was roughly 24" (end of lens to coin). Images were shot raw and post-processed.
I was pretty surprised by many of the HA images. The color, saturation, and exposure often seemed extreme. But to their credit, the images of the raw coins were very well detailed, superbly crisp, and large for easy viewing.
I thought the catalog would be a keeper but I'm not sure. I wonder if some bidders made decisions based on catalog images, and how they'll feel about the coins when they arrive.
Below are the results, presented in this order, along with the sale price (just for fun).
Catalog photos
Slab photos (cropped and resized)
My photos
Lance.
1805-4 50c O.103a AU55 $19975
1807 50c O.112 XF40 $1292
1814 50c O.106a NGC AU58 $5875
1821 50c O.102 NGC AU55 $1233
1827 50c O.110 NGC AU58 $2467
1828 50c O.107 NGC MS62 $2585
1828 50c O.113 NGC MS63 $2350
1832 H10 LM 8.4 NGC MS66 $4406
1838 10c Fortin 108a NGC MS66+ $6756
1862 3CS NGC MS66 $1880
1871 25c NGC PF67★ cameo $9987
1875-CC 20c MS63 $4406
1893-S 25c NGC MS64 $2232
Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
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Comments
<< <i>I wonder if some bidders made decisions based on catalog images, and how they'll feel about the coins when they arrive. >>
Wowzers it seems many are in for a rude awakening?
Thanks so much for posting the comparisons!
I based most my bidding off the slab photos (assuming the worse).
Thank you for doing this I was really interested in see a comparison, since I did not view the lots in hand!
Numismatist @WitterCoin
Latin American Collection
I think the FANTASY PHOTOS started with 19th Century Dark Toned Proof Silver Coins. The virus expanded into the entire Newman Collection. It's sad in my view. The goal of any photographer should be to produce a photo that is as close to what the coin looks like in hand as possible. This is not 3rd grade art class.
My thoughts on the matter...
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
RAD#306
I would have been sorely disappointed if I'd have won a few of these and had only gone by the auction photos.
I like how you've captured the proof and Barber quarters.
Thanks for posting.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Is that really a wide patch of horizontal hairlines in the right obverse field of that PF67* 1871 quarter? Wouldn't expect those to be on the holder of a freshly slabbed coin.
This should be a very informative post for Heritage. Heritage should hire you, or at least pay you some money to remove this post.
<< <i>None of the photos seem to do those coins justice as each view seems to show significant shortcomings, especially with respect to luster.
Is that really a wide patch of horizontal hairlines in the right obverse field of that PF67* 1871 quarter? Wouldn't expect those to be on the holder of a freshly slabbed coin. >>
Luster is something you see best as you move a coin around in hand. It's harder to capture in a single photo. You can orient lighting to flash across a coin. There are noticeable downsides, however, as this exaggerates the smallest surface imperfections. Maybe I'll show this in another thread.
The NGC slabs were pristine. Very refreshing. Fingerprints galore, but easy to clean up with one of those eyeglass cloths. The hairlines you see are on the coin, not the holder. These can be lessened in photos by lighting along the lines instead of against them. I wasn't trying to rig the images, though.
Lance.
siliconvalleycoins.com
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>With all the money involved, one would expect Heritage to provide more true pictures. Maybe Heritage photo people were busy, and not able to spend the time required to give us their best pictures. >>
Rather it looks like an attempt to make the coins look lighter than they are.
<< <i>Had your photos been used by Heritage, the coins should have brought more money. I never bother with the Heritage details shots, can't stand them. Thanks for showing this thread, very informative. >>
In their best interest, Heritage should hire you as the coin photographer.
Bob
And I agree, they should hire you.
If you compare catalogue quality my vote would rest with "Goldberg" time after time. They have done their homework and know how to do imaging AND quality graphic design layouts! Goldberg takes their time to design their catalogues. after all, we are visual when it comes to buying coins. Does it not pay to perform good work? Maybe that's why the Goldbergs wins catalogue of the year over and over. We have the right technology at our fingertips today, we have competent individuals and certainly have the necessary redources to grace our catalogues with beautiful images and overall graphics.
Kudos to the OP and bringing this subject to light - I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
<< <i>Excellent critique - thanks for sharing.
And I agree, they should hire you. >>
Really, any competent photographer could have pulled this off, and several forum members would have done a superb job for HA.
Maybe HA's photographer got marching orders, justified in the name of showing more detail. Many of Newman's coins were dark from envelope-toning.
I don't know how else to explain it.
Lance.
A 'special' photographer should be hired for collections like this. Surely Heritage's budget for a $20m+ collection could afford to hire a
photographer to superbly photograph these coins for a relatively meager sum.
And which set of images is in the catalog?
Lance.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Who knows how many thousands or millions of dollars cumulatively were left on the table as a result, or alternatively how many pizzed off buyers there may be which, while not reflected in this sale's results, may ultimately come back to harm Heritage's results down the line. *
Heck, I don't really do much coin photography anymore, but I could do better in my sleep.
Ugh.
P.S. Nice shots, Lance.
* Yes, I realize that the heavy hitters most likely viewed in person or via an agent, but I'd be willing to bet that not a small number of lots were affected...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
And, how come no prongs in the first photos ?
<< <i>Very fond of the 1814 106a....but 58 does seem a little hopeful.
And, how come no prongs in the first photos ? >>
Heritage shot them raw, before grading. A shame...that was such an advantage.
Lance.
<< <i>And, how come no prongs in the first photos ? >>
Nice catch, they must have shot them before grading.
Very illuminating post, Lance.
- Jim
<< <i>
<< <i>Very fond of the 1814 106a....but 58 does seem a little hopeful.
And, how come no prongs in the first photos ? >>
Heritage shot them raw, before grading. A shame...that was such an advantage.
Lance. >>
Did Heritage shoot them or NGC?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Very fond of the 1814 106a....but 58 does seem a little hopeful.
And, how come no prongs in the first photos ? >>
Heritage shot them raw, before grading. A shame...that was such an advantage.
Lance. >>
Did Heritage shoot them or NGC? >>
Good point, could have been NGC.
I have not checked to see if they match Lance's "unpronged" photos.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Very fond of the 1814 106a....but 58 does seem a little hopeful.
And, how come no prongs in the first photos ? >>
Heritage shot them raw, before grading. A shame...that was such an advantage.
Lance. >>
Did Heritage shoot them or NGC? >>
Good question, Todd. I really don't know.
NGC has a gallery of the Newman coins and the ones I just looked at aren't the same as those Heritage used. E.g., here are NGC's images for the 1796 quarter (posted above). You can see they're not the same photos (besides the obvious overexposure).
Lance.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
keep up the good work.
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
I wouldn't call the Heritage images bad or misleading though. I think they just represent two extreme ends of the lighting spectrum. Any given coin can take on several extremely different appearances depending on the angle at which its viewed, distance from light, etc. and I can see those coins looking like both sets of Heritage photos depending on the lighting conditions and angle of viewing (although the catalog images are probably a bit too processed).
I think Lance's photos, in most of the cases above, represent a happy medium between the Heritage shots and you can get a great idea of what the coins will look like in hand when you take all 3 sets of images into consideration.
That being said, if you could only have one set of images - Lance's are the clear choice!
It's also possible the lighter images occured during the printing process and or they were adjusted just before. Maybe that is the look Heritage wanted.
I think the images are close but way too light! I also agree, they have that "Fantasy" look.
Has anyone positively verified who shot the pics and who processed them before printing?
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
As for who photographed them, NGC or Heritage, I couldn't help but wonder again how much the principals of Heritage own of NGC -- that number's been floated around here before.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Goldberg understands that concept well. I appreciate that.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
It's possible that the bright images may be used for "liability" issues, via which every mark must be exposed -- unlike the old days when many images went through a beautification process.
EC
First of all, great post. This sort of thing takes some effort to put together. Your photos are excellent. After shooting a bunch of coins it's pretty easy to learn the tricks about how to hide problems, juice the image, hide the flaws, etc. The overly bright photos from the sale are of atrocious hideousness. Why do it like this? I will extend to the auction house the benefit of the doubt, but hopefully the intent was not to be deceptive. In their defense, they do have to photograph, catalog, and publish photos of hundreds of coins per day. Some of these are downright terrible though. I'd be most displeased to open my little box and see that my white & rainbow coin was darkly toned and not nearly so colorful.