Is machine doubling on a coin a mint error?
PerryHall
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We know that machine doubling is common and adds no value to a coin. Machine doubling occurs during the minting process when a loose die bounces or shifts after the initial strike and this doubling is not intended by the mint on the coin. So, why can't it be considered a mint error when it creates doubling on coins that was never intended by the mint?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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A mint error is considered a 'human error'.
Machine doubling is a mechanical error, or rather, is not caused by 'human error'. So it's considered more akin to damage.
I think some of them look cool. But they are not particularly rare things, are they?
In coin collecting, much value comes from both 'rarity'. Also, the specific way the coin became 'errored' or 'damaged' plays a part, because some of them are just more interesting to think about than others.
JMHO as always.
But I think because it was not an issue with the die itself that caused the doubling that it is not categorized as a "mint error" like doubled-dies.
<< <i>We know that machine doubling is common and adds no value to a coin. Machine doubling occurs during the minting process when a loose die bounces or shifts after the initial strike and this doubling is not intended by the mint on the coin. So, why can't it be considered a mint error when it creates doubling on coins that was never intended by the mint? >>
Well...........because its not doubling. It only gove the "appearance" of being doubled and this is too the untrained eye.
While I have no intention of dissing newbies, it appears to me that the "new" variety/error collector does everything they can to justify what they believe is "doubling" or a "mint error" without having a true understanding of why some of the true doubled die or error coins are so expensive.
Given the "abundance" of machine damaged (lets call it what it really is which is a damaged coin) coins that, as non-collectors, they never noticed before but now that they have a loupe or worse yet, digital microscope, they now see a lot of these and in an effort to "broaden" either their pocket books or knowledge, they think they see bonafide errors in darn near everything.
So, to answer the question "Is Machine Doubling on a coin a mint error?": Simply stated No. It not "real" doubling and it is within acceptable US Mint tolerances of manufacture. "True" doubled die coins and "true" mint errors (such as broadstrikes, off center strikes, double strike, clips, etc.) are watched for by the US Mint and when they are seen, they are NOT released to the Federal Reserve Banks. As such, these coins which the US Mint considers as "inferior products" are the real errors.
The name is LEE!
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Well, it was something that was not intended to occur, so I guess you could call it an "error"...
But I think because it was not an issue with the die itself that caused the doubling that it is not categorized as a "mint error" like doubled-dies. >>
Wouldn't it be considered a striking error not unlike any other misstruck coin? We've already established it's minor and adds no real value.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I think...
A mint error is considered a 'human error'.
Machine doubling is a mechanical error, or rather, is not caused by 'human error'. So it's considered more akin to damage. >>
I'll disagree with this in that a "Mint "Error" is a coin which was not supposed to be released to the "public" due to some mechanical condition or situation, human OR mechanical, which occurred during the manufacturing process and as such, represents an inferior product which the US Mint does not want circulating.
Expanded efforts have been implemented through different processes to "prevent" the release of these coins but since they are producing "billions" of coins, a certain amount do get through. The Mint has closed a lot of loop holes which existed in the past (relieving rollers and baggers of lucrative contracts for selling error coins) and as such, fewer and fewer error coins are making it to market.
Machine damage which only "looks" like doubling does not happen to be one that the US Mint is concerned with.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Machine damage which only "looks" like doubling does not happen to be one that the US Mint is concerned with. >>
From an article on this website:
After the 1955 Doubled Dies were produced, they were mixed with millions of regular circulation strike cents from that same year. However, Mint employees caught some of the 1955 Doubled Die cents before they went into circulation. The Mint then decided that it was just not worth the trouble of melting millions of cents to retrieve the approximately 20,000 Doubled Die cents that were accidentally produced.
Sounds like the mint wasn't concerned with those, either, at that time. Are they then not errors?
Lamination peals are considered errors and in essence lamination issues are human error also. By not properly maintaining the die and all other associated mechanical processes errors are created. The demand for those errors based on rarity, eye appeal and interest develop into an accepted or unaccepted error. As time continues and quality control is optimized at the mint, errors of any type will be a thing of the past. This is why I believe current era errors will start to demand a premium as in the 2009 LFY 006 skeleton finger.
Seems to me machine doubling is the poster child for this ???
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<< <i>I guess to some it is. >>
Are you serious? Of course not since there are hundreds of eBay "sellers" out there that try to sell their machine damaged coins as Mint Errors. This particular one is slabbed by NGC and the seller found the perfect "ignoramus" to bid up a rather common occurrence by referring to it, unprofessionally I might add, as an "error".
The folks at CONECA must be cringing as will the buyer of this piece when it resold.
The name is LEE!
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<< <i>Machine damage which only "looks" like doubling does not happen to be one that the US Mint is concerned with. >>
From an article on this website:
After the 1955 Doubled Dies were produced, they were mixed with millions of regular circulation strike cents from that same year. However, Mint employees caught some of the 1955 Doubled Die cents before they went into circulation. The Mint then decided that it was just not worth the trouble of melting millions of cents to retrieve the approximately 20,000 Doubled Die cents that were accidentally produced.
Sounds like the mint wasn't concerned with those, either, at that time. Are they then not errors?
They are considered a "variety" more than an "error" but then. they are not machine damaged either but true doubling and there was "hesitance" at releasing the lot.
The name is LEE!
Alan Herbert's decision to cut off the minting process at the lowest point of the hammer die's downstroke was a purely arbitrary one. It's just as legitimate to insist that the minting process continues through all phases of the striking cycle.
You can read more about machine doubling here:
http://error-ref.com/machine-doubling-.html
<< <i>They are considered a "variety" more than an "error" but then. they are not machine damaged either but true doubling... >>
From this website:
error
A numismatic item that unintentionally varies from the norm. Ordinarily, overdates are not errors since they were done intentionally while other die-cutting “mistakes” are considered errors. Double dies, planchet clips, off-metal strikings, etc. also are errors.
Coin Collecting is loaded with traditions and traditionally, doubled die coins are referred to as varieties and not Mint Errors. Were it not so then literally every "minor" difference in a coins appearance would be considered an "error".
The abundance of wannabee attorney newbies and old collectors that like to justify the term "error" via word interpretation are missing the boat in that regardless of how it's justified verbally or in written word via precise definition, there are ignorant new collectors out their that are being scammed by well intentioned yet new sellers into paying premiums for coins which are considered "non-premium" worthy by the base of educated coin collectors.
Continuing to justify this acceptable manufacturing occurrence only perpetuates the scam which is all it is since nearly every roll of coins purchased at the bank will have these machine damaged coins within them. Once the scammed buyer figures out s/he was "duped", they turn a wary eye toward purveyors of "collectible" varieties.
Can calling these "Mint Errors" be validated via "strict" definitions? Sure! But then so can all the other insane crap that has invaded the general consumers world with warning such s "Caution - Coffee is Hot!" and "Warning - Plastic Bags are not safe for Children to Play with!"
If you want coin collecting to move in this direction, then go for it but I'd much rather educate myself about "why" the coin looks different instead of jumping onto the "Doh! I go duped!" bandwagon.
The name is LEE!
Some extreme cases will add value as they can be very cool.
<< <i>Here is a very cool example
Yopu may think its cool to sell these at a premium but I don't think I could live with myself as a coin dealer to do so.
But I guess we all have different idea's of what is right and what we can "get away with". Right?
The name is LEE!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>[But I guess we all have different idea's of what is right and what we can "get away with". Right? >>
Ain't try to get away with anything.
I have these in a set of minor errors for education as well as one ups that start at 99 cents. I have no control on the bidding.
This is a better example of machine doubling than the famous 1955 poor man's double die that sell for a premium, IMO
Look at this MD
Now look at the rest of the coin
Interesting how the extreme MD is not seen on the entire obverse.
Now I only wish someone could explain this to me ????
It is a 1989 Lincoln and I have 4 examples of this.
Note: proper terminology is 'Doubled Dies' they can't even get that right.
I'm interested to see what Fred Weinberg has to say.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>
<< <i>[But I guess we all have different idea's of what is right and what we can "get away with". Right? >>
Ain't try to get away with anything.
I have these in a set of minor errors for education as well as one ups that start at 99 cents. I have no control on the bidding.
This is a better example of machine doubling than the famous 1955 poor man's double die that sell for a premium, IMO >>
.99 is about .98 to high and it does not make it right. Neither does calling it a "2013 D Double 3D Lincoln Shield Cent Mint Error Rare Lincoln Penny" in the title even though you point out that its machine doubling which it is not. More along the lines of die erosion doubling but just as worthless and not really "rare" at all. Quite frankly I am shocked that in your effort to become an Error Coin Dealer that you even bothered to list this coin as "Rare" much less "doubled".
Additionally, the comment about not being able to control bidding is just a cop out since the "listing" should not exist. Does Fred Weinberg list machine doubled coins as "Rare Errors"?
BTW, the "Poor Man's Doubled Die" rides off the coat tails of the 55/55 but it still represents am "error/variety" scam for the uneducated.
The name is LEE!
The cud is a result of a mechanical failure of the die.
One might argue it is human error in not pulling the dies and coins, but it is die failure.
Some die cracks rise to collectible errors. Perhaps some dramatic MD might as well?
Perhaps it is the small nature of the aberrations as well as their source that keeps them in the no extra value area.
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is a very cool example
Yopu may think its cool to sell these at a premium but I don't think I could live with myself as a coin dealer to do so.
But I guess we all have different idea's of what is right and what we can "get away with". Right? >>
Looks more like the die is failing near the edge, rather than MD.
like I say whatever .......
99 cents hmmm I gunna get rich yeah ......
Your still mad that you couldn't steal that ike from under me .....
I am planning a kayak fishing trip to hawaii right now so I could care less what you think ....
FACT IS, I did say most machine doubling adds no extra value, and another fact is that some machine doubling does sell for a premium. I didn't set the market, it's been around for a very long time.
<< <i>Your still mad that you couldn't steal that ike from under me ..... >>
Exactly WHAT are you implying?
And exactly WHAT does that have to do with your promoting common die deterioration doubling as rare?
The name is LEE!
I have been researching kayak fishing in Hawaii over the last few hours and just checked this thread .......
Sounds like it is going to be an awesome time, even my beautiful (non fishing) wife likes the idea of going to hawaii ..... enjoy your little quest .......
<< <i>
<< <i>I guess to some it is. >>
Are you serious? Of course not since there are hundreds of eBay "sellers" out there that try to sell their machine damaged coins as Mint Errors. This particular one is slabbed by NGC and the seller found the perfect "ignoramus" to bid up a rather common occurrence by referring to it, unprofessionally I might add, as an "error".
The folks at CONECA must be cringing as will the buyer of this piece when it resold. >>
C'mon, Lee. You know I'm not serious. You spelled it out just perfectly. I firmly believe a fool and his money are soon 'ebayed' (like from Kingpin, when you got 'Munsoned", which was his last name, when you got 'Munsoned', it wasn't a good thing. I asked him '..... if they were errors, why wouldn't he grade them with the error designation?" I told him he'd make MUCH more with the 'error designation' on the cert, knowing full well they don't exist. I asked which TPG he was considering, and he said 'one of the better ones'. WTH does THAT mean???
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I guess to some it is. >>
Are you serious? Of course not since there are hundreds of eBay "sellers" out there that try to sell their machine damaged coins as Mint Errors. This particular one is slabbed by NGC and the seller found the perfect "ignoramus" to bid up a rather common occurrence by referring to it, unprofessionally I might add, as an "error".
The folks at CONECA must be cringing as will the buyer of this piece when it resold. >>
C'mon, Lee. You know I'm not serious. You spelled it out just perfectly. I firmly believe a fool and his money are soon 'ebayed' (like from Kingpin, when you got 'Munsoned", which was his last name, when you got 'Munsoned', it wasn't a good thing. I asked him '..... if they were errors, why wouldn't he grade them with the error designation?" I told him he'd make MUCH more with the 'error designation' on the cert, knowing full well they don't exist. I asked which TPG he was considering, and he said 'one of the better ones'. WTH does THAT mean??? >>
Sorry.
I get grumpy when a certain someone says: "Your still mad that you couldn't steal that ike from under me ....."!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>It is an error and the majority of the time it adds no extra value to a coin.
Some extreme cases will add value as they can be very cool. >>
I just came across this thread, technically all coin errors that take place at the mint either by human or machine are technically both mint errors, as they are both errors that happen at the mint and aren't post mint damage.
Could be big bucks in machine doubling on coins ... especially on ebay.
Proof positive! I guess you have a point there.
They're only errors if the mint intends to manufacture perfect coins.
Do they?
Well, varieties are coins that have been produced from a certain die, over and over again. (DD's, Die Cracks, Die Chips, etc). Errors are one of a kind happenings during the minting process from blanks to the actual stamping process. (Clips, Laminations, Struck on a wrong planchet, and of course the nail just happened to fall into the stamping machine (Hmmm), etc.)
So technically? Yes. Although it is a pretty common occurrence and not very collectible unless a major example. On eBay so many sellers call them "Doubled Dies" which is incorrect obviously and probably even a lie but nobody ever reports them.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
According to all the Etsy sellers they are and are worth big bucks.
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Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Boy, Perry you have done it now. I predict this will be one of the longest running posts ever. BTW, according to Merriam-Webster the definition of error is:
Definition of error
1a: an act or condition of ignorant or imprudent deviation from a code of behavior
b: an act involving an unintentional deviation from truth or accuracy
made an error in adding up the bill
c: an act that through ignorance, deficiency, or accident departs from or fails to achieve what should be done
Now what allowed the die to strike the coin in different spots, humans, machines or wear? Does that really matter. Why not just call it Machine Doubling Error with no added value. The problem ends. But to carry on with "is it an error or not" only allows some to feel it to be of additional value, which is the only reason it is continually listed for sale as a valuable error coin. Don't get me wrong, I understand how new collectors not familiar with the minting process and procedures to think , "Wow, I have found something valuable". You only have to read our daily forum contributions by new collectors to understand their issue. They are not educated yet on the issue. We try to do that here, but, hopefully, not by fueling the fire to place all errors in the same value bracket. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
But the Etsy sellers are still just that - "SELLERS". Ya never see where they actually "SOLD" anything.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Absolutely. They are not as intended yet produced by the mint. That's the definition of error.
Spectacular errors and run of the mill common errors are still errors.
The discrimination against them is astounding. I've gotten a couple, way more interesting than the normal issues.
Will never be for sale as long as I'm alive so don't go barking up that tree.
I call it sloppy work. Whoever set those dies screwed up. Or, it’s a maintenance problem not to keep an eye on them.
That’s my vote
It's not a problem to keep an eye on them. It'll cost more money, though.
At some point, you have to decide what's good enough and get on with it.
Wow... eight years and still the debate continues. Well, for me, it is settled, and that is what matters - to me.
I know the difference between the types, and only interested in true doubled die coins. Y'all have fun now... 
Cheers, RickO
From our host:
.
An error is a mistake stemming from the method of manufacturing and can be insignificant or massive. The significance of the error can be judged on the specific mint that produced it and the tolerances that mint has for manufacturing defects, this is called “mint tolerance.” Errors can occur at any time during manufacturing the coin. These mistakes can be anything from an inconsistent mixture of the metal that the coin is made from, to planchet-production issues, to striking, and even thereafter. Most errors are unique to that particular coin. If the metal is off, made on a wrong or clipped planchet, and/or struck incorrectly, usually this only occurs on one or perhaps a few pieces. Collectors of error coins judge the significance and the market value of these pieces , which means some errors can be considered detrimental and of less value as compared to a non-error coin, while others are considered significant and bring fortunes to those who discover and sell them.
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