1877 Trade Dollar FS-101 Discussion (New Image added at the bottom of OP)
stealer
Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭✭
A few Trade weanies and I were discussing a few weeks ago the possibility that the 1877 FS-101 is not a doubled die obverse but actually a tripled die obverse. In the spirit of the discussion
I took some high resolution images of my example of the FS-101 and the results seem to suggest that it is in fact a quadrupled obverse die. The discussion really began with a question about
whether the obverse was the IIL or IIM style. The ribbon motif running under Liberty suggested the IIM while the hand pointing down suggested the IIL. There is so far weak agreement that
the die is most likely tripled amongst the weanies, but I propose it may be even more radical and be a quadrupled (although very minutely) obverse IIL die.
First, here are massive images that can be used for reference purposes. Caution, they are larger than TrueViews and Heritage images so open at your discretion.
Obverse
Reverse
In viewing the obverse image, it becomes apparent that the ribbon on which IN GOD WE TRUST is superimposed is doubled towards the south on the right side. It also appears to be doubled
towards the north, which is indicative of the IIM obverse die. In viewing Liberty's left hand, it shows the IIL style (there is a dot attached to the right side of her index finger). Now it isn't
impossible for the die to be an IIL hubbed onto an IIM (I don't claim to know anything about how this works or the proper way of describing it so if you wish to find out you will have to talk to
crypto, OD or Keoj). However, in viewing the rest of the coin, the possibility of tripling becomes more obvious.
Here is the extra doubling to the north:
The first concrete suggestion of tripling can be found by viewing the LIBERTY motif with different angles of light. Here is an image that shows what appears to be the remnants of tripling in the E.
Look carefully at the incuse part of the letter and you will see three lines.
The three lines are not readily perceivable when viewed head on with typical orientation:
This second image shows something interesting going on in the ropes holding together the bales of hay. In zooming it, one sees:
Although difficult to make out, the details of the rope appears to be imbedded to the north in the bales of hay.
Flipping the coin upside down makes the details easier to makes the details easy to see. Take special care at looking at the bottom left rope in the following image.
Now I may have lost some of you at this point (if you made it this far and haven't left out of boredom, I'm impressed), but return to the full obverse image provided at the beginning of
this thread. Recall that the doubling is originally only perceptible to the south. Doubling to the north of the ropes in the bales of the hay shouldn't be found unless the die were also
doubled in the opposite direction. It is clear that the coin is undoubtedly at least tripled, and thus explaining why it appears to be a mixed hub of the IIL and IIM styles. The coin is certainly an IIL.
From here we can begin to see where the quadrupling is. I have highlighted the suspect area in the red square:
There appears to be two sets of doubling to the north. Radical and pretty much pointless, I know, but it's worth mentioning since the evidence is already here.
If you're not convinced that the die is at least tripled, taking a look at the stars on the left side of the obverse should dispel any doubts. We see that the first star on the left is doubled
to the south. This makes no sense if the first star on the right is also doubled to the south, unless the die was doubled twice in opposite directions. This diagnostic is actually easier to
see in the overall image of the coin, so refer to that for further visual evidence.
Looking at the stars on the left side upside down also gives great evidence for quadrupling. I have drawn vector lines so it is easy to follow the approximate direction of the doubling.
Viewing the same area from the right-side up gives a different look and further evidence for quadrupling. Again, vector lines are provided.
New Image:
That's all I have for now. Until next time...
I took some high resolution images of my example of the FS-101 and the results seem to suggest that it is in fact a quadrupled obverse die. The discussion really began with a question about
whether the obverse was the IIL or IIM style. The ribbon motif running under Liberty suggested the IIM while the hand pointing down suggested the IIL. There is so far weak agreement that
the die is most likely tripled amongst the weanies, but I propose it may be even more radical and be a quadrupled (although very minutely) obverse IIL die.
First, here are massive images that can be used for reference purposes. Caution, they are larger than TrueViews and Heritage images so open at your discretion.
Obverse
Reverse
In viewing the obverse image, it becomes apparent that the ribbon on which IN GOD WE TRUST is superimposed is doubled towards the south on the right side. It also appears to be doubled
towards the north, which is indicative of the IIM obverse die. In viewing Liberty's left hand, it shows the IIL style (there is a dot attached to the right side of her index finger). Now it isn't
impossible for the die to be an IIL hubbed onto an IIM (I don't claim to know anything about how this works or the proper way of describing it so if you wish to find out you will have to talk to
crypto, OD or Keoj). However, in viewing the rest of the coin, the possibility of tripling becomes more obvious.
Here is the extra doubling to the north:
The first concrete suggestion of tripling can be found by viewing the LIBERTY motif with different angles of light. Here is an image that shows what appears to be the remnants of tripling in the E.
Look carefully at the incuse part of the letter and you will see three lines.
The three lines are not readily perceivable when viewed head on with typical orientation:
This second image shows something interesting going on in the ropes holding together the bales of hay. In zooming it, one sees:
Although difficult to make out, the details of the rope appears to be imbedded to the north in the bales of hay.
Flipping the coin upside down makes the details easier to makes the details easy to see. Take special care at looking at the bottom left rope in the following image.
Now I may have lost some of you at this point (if you made it this far and haven't left out of boredom, I'm impressed), but return to the full obverse image provided at the beginning of
this thread. Recall that the doubling is originally only perceptible to the south. Doubling to the north of the ropes in the bales of the hay shouldn't be found unless the die were also
doubled in the opposite direction. It is clear that the coin is undoubtedly at least tripled, and thus explaining why it appears to be a mixed hub of the IIL and IIM styles. The coin is certainly an IIL.
From here we can begin to see where the quadrupling is. I have highlighted the suspect area in the red square:
There appears to be two sets of doubling to the north. Radical and pretty much pointless, I know, but it's worth mentioning since the evidence is already here.
If you're not convinced that the die is at least tripled, taking a look at the stars on the left side of the obverse should dispel any doubts. We see that the first star on the left is doubled
to the south. This makes no sense if the first star on the right is also doubled to the south, unless the die was doubled twice in opposite directions. This diagnostic is actually easier to
see in the overall image of the coin, so refer to that for further visual evidence.
Looking at the stars on the left side upside down also gives great evidence for quadrupling. I have drawn vector lines so it is easy to follow the approximate direction of the doubling.
Viewing the same area from the right-side up gives a different look and further evidence for quadrupling. Again, vector lines are provided.
New Image:
That's all I have for now. Until next time...
0
Comments
However, being ignorant on these coins, I was following well until your stars quadrupling. Oh well, I defer to your careful research!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
<< <i>Oh well, I defer to your careful research! >>
I might be wrong about all the crazy doubling in the stars...all I know is that my eyes hurt from staring at my computer screen!
TDN, if you ever want high resolution images of any of your Trade Dollar beauties I would love to shoot them for free
<< <i>An off-brand photocopy stand from eBay and a few home-made adjustments make a world of difference!
TDN, if you ever want high resolution images of any of your Trade Dollar beauties I would love to shoot them for free
Perhaps one day. There's only a couple with variety appeal tho
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
<< <i>Fabulous photography! And very interesting to this quasi-Trade weenie. >>
Quasi Trade or
Quasi Weenie?
<< <i>
<< <i>Fabulous photography! And very interesting to this quasi-Trade weenie. >>
Quasi Trade or
Quasi Weenie?
Is there a difference?
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
I think you could be right but I'm not 100% convinced. The stars appear to show doubling in different directions, but do you see clear evidence of split star points that indicate doubling in multiple directions? There is a ton of "shelf doubling" of the stars in the TD series so be careful here.
To my eye the clearest indication of doubling and direction is within the LIBERTY scroll letters. Within the B, for example, you can clearly see the inner parts of the B shifted NORTH (said another way, the 2nd imprint shifted SOUTH). Same with the R.
The rope is interesting. I'm not convinced there is an imprint of the rope in the southwards direction, that might be the rough edges of hay shifted north.
Finally, the right side of the IGWT banner. Aren't you just seeing the initial imprint, then the 2nd imprint north of that (including the doubled part already known for all IIL obverses)?
To be clear I'm not convinced either way but it's important to test new assertions before deciding on a conclusion. I've personally been very certain of a few past "numismatic discoveries" only to be proven wrong under thorough scrutiny. Keep it up, this is really cool stuff.
<< <i>This is well illustrated Stealer, nice job.
I think you could be right but I'm not 100% convinced. The stars appear to show doubling in different directions, but do you see clear evidence of split star points that indicate doubling in multiple directions? There is a ton of "shelf doubling" of the stars in the TD series so be careful here.
To my eye the clearest indication of doubling and direction is within the LIBERTY scroll letters. Within the B, for example, you can clearly see the inner parts of the B shifted NORTH (said another way, the 2nd imprint shifted SOUTH). Same with the R.
The rope is interesting. I'm not convinced there is an imprint of the rope in the southwards direction, that might be the rough edges of hay shifted north.
Finally, the right side of the IGWT banner. Aren't you just seeing the initial imprint, then the 2nd imprint north of that (including the doubled part already known for all IIL obverses)?
To be clear I'm not convinced either way but it's important to test new assertions before deciding on a conclusion. I've personally been very certain of a few past "numismatic discoveries" only to be proven wrong under thorough scrutiny. Keep it up, this is really cool stuff. >>
OD,
1) I'm not totally sure, I really need to retake some brighter images of the left side stars to be certain. I can see more in the images than I can with a 10x loop, so it'll be a bit before I get some new information. Agreed on the shelf doubling.
2) You are correct the letters do betray strong directional guidance for the under-struck design, and I haven't thought of it that way. On a similar note, the ribbon itself on which LIBERTY is superimposed shows strong doubling to the north and you can see the remnants it in the bales. It runs across above I through the middle of T.
3) I agree that the doubling to the south is difficult to see, but I would say that what's really important is the doubling to the north which I think holds a little more credence from the images.
4) For the banner, the doubling to the north is for the IIM, not IIL
Thanks for the checks
Die chatter?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012