Terminal toning discussion

erwindoc

Ive heard this mentioned before on a couple of coins, but I was hoping some of the pros here could post some examples and everyone could learn something.

lkeigwin

Like toning that approaches black? Environmental damage? I don't have any examples to share.
Lance.

AUandAG

Here is a GSA that is terminal in my opinion. But, not according to the seller who has been trying
to get rid of this coin for at least a year.
bob
Ebay GSA

BryceM

Yuk. I wouldn't buy that with your money.

coinsarefun

<< <i>Here is a GSA that is terminal in my opinion. But, not according to the seller who has been trying
to get rid of this coin for at least a year.
bob
Ebay GSA >>






offff, that this is scary

coinbuf

I have a morgan in an old PCI holder that is terminal, but alas no pics.

Unknown

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vibr0nic

Here are a couple of examples at the end of the Sunnywood scale

Approaching terminal but still really attractive. (mostly W,X on the scale, hints of V around Liberty's hair)



Partial terminal (glossy black), but still hints of color. (mostly X,Y on the scale)

.

Mitchell

Hey Bob:

I've been watching that 81CC GSA for a long time too. I'd buy it for $100 as the ugliest GSA known. But, it would be a burial so no thanks.

keets

by "terminal toning" are you suggesting that every toned coin will eventually turn black?

Zoins

<< <i>Here are a couple of examples at the end of the Sunnywood scale

Approaching terminal but still really attractive. (mostly W,X on the scale, hints of V around Liberty's hair)

>>



Wow. Great looking coin

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

It's funny... I went to the first PCGS grading 101 course ever offered at the LBE and they showed a Morgan dollar with obverse crescent toning that covered half of the coin, it was solid black. I asked Mr. Guth if that was an example of terminal toning and before he could answer, David Hall interrupted with "No, that's a black beauty!" I was very confused and wasn't about to argue with Mr. Hall

Erik

illini420

Here's one that I used to have that I think had that dark terminal toning on the reverse and most of the obverse... was pretty I thought:

Crazy4Coins

Here's a 3 cent piece that I had to pull out of an album because it was getting too dark. The coin was actually a little darker than what the photos suggest.

This would be my opinion of terminal:

illini420

Here's another that I sold that probably had terminal toning except for a small area of rainbow color near the date and in the deeper parts of the design like inside of Liberty's ear:

NotSure

<< <i>by "terminal toning" are you suggesting that every toned coin will eventually turn black? >>



EXCELLENT question. It's actually one that I've been thinking about since toners really went gangbusters and just started to take off. Personally, in all honesty, I thought it (by 'it', I mean a REAL desire for toners) wouldn't last, but, DAYUM, just a REALLY quick look at past auction results (and God knows how many threads are brought up about toning), there's 'proof in the pudding' that premiums are still very big. I was WAY wrong. I'm personally not a fan of toning, almost as much a non-fan of toning as ricko is....I MUCH prefer blast white.

BUT...... I've have thought about this exact same question for quite some time (and still am), I've thought about that question since the prices REALLY started to boom. My thought is (and we all know the holders for the top TPG's aren't 'lock-down, nothing in or out' tightly sealed) could air (and I suppose water, not sure about length of time submerged, but....or condensation) I suppose both air and moisture could get in.....eventually. So, I'm going to say, as someone who has been around for a while, and reading the toner threads..I'd figure they COULD eventually turn that black color. Once it starts, without a dip to 'conserve' it back to white, then it gets slabbed, knowing the slabs aren't guaranteed air/water tight, I'd have to assume that eventually, at SOME point (could be 100 years, more??) it would progress to that 'color'. I could be wrong, but I consider it like rust on a car. If you don't attend to it right away, as the rust begins, and replace the panel (ie, dipping it white), said panel will eventually rot through (ie, the coin turning that black 'color'). If I were a toner fan, and KNEW for a FACT it could happen, I'd worry a bit....but as I said, who knows how long it could take. I'd love it if someone here could definitively know the answer.

BryceM

<< <i>by "terminal toning" are you suggesting that every toned coin will eventually turn black? >>



For 90% silver, unless carefully encased in a completely inert material, yes, unquestionably. The time scale is the only question. Silver is chemically quite reactive and susceptible to corrosion. Our modern slabs will slow the process down, but the ultimate fate of virtually every single silver coin ever minted will be chemical corrosion and gradual dissipation into the environment. Gold, OTOH, will exist for millennia with almost no chemical change.

Now, in practical terms, most of our reasonably well protected silver coins will be around for generations in a respectable state.

In terms of actual conservation, a removable lacquer is probably a very good way to preserve original surfaces.

It would be fun to take some classic coins, encase them thusly, drop them into a time capsule for a few hundred years and let our descendants wonder what on earth we were thinking.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Here is a GSA that is terminal in my opinion. But, not according to the seller who has been trying
to get rid of this coin for at least a year.
bob
Ebay GSA >>



rmt rigor mortis toning

magikbilly

As far as I understand it, it is the last color in the progression. And it can be beautiful to me.

Eric

stman

Here is a Binion "Black beauty." Predominately black and much more luster than these old teletrade images show.

Unknown

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AuroraBorealis

Here`s an example... Mixed terminal toning with rainbow colors... Definitely not one of my finest pieces but I like it...

AB

Justlooking

<< <i>Here is a GSA that is terminal in my opinion. But, not according to the seller who has been trying
to get rid of this coin for at least a year.
bob
Ebay GSA >>



I thought it looked familiar.

Broadstruck

Here's a pair that's terminal on just one side...

ricko

Silver will eventually reach the terminal stage, however, the timeframe depends on the environmental conditions. The higher the exposure to reactive chemicals (i.e. sulfur) the faster the progression. Encapsulation will slow the progression and, if the container is of a non-reactive composition, progression will virtually be halted. If sealed in a nitrogen filled container, an as-minted coin could remain clean. Cheers, RickO

PerryHall

<< <i>Like toning that approaches black? Environmental damage? I don't have any examples to share.
Lance. >>



Yes. In theory, terminal toning will be totally dark black. The coins shown in this thread are not terminally toned.

keets

RE: the question.

without dealing in absolutes which perhaps require hundreds of years a toned coin won't turn black or even continue to tone to any noticeable degree if there are no contaminants present on the surface of the coin. I have had and have white/brilliant coins which haven't changed for decades and toned coins which haven't changed either. some have been stored in TPG holders and some in things as simple a stapled 2x2. if there's nothing on the surface to react with the silver nothing will happen in an essentially inert holder. the advantage that we have over our predecessors is knowledge of what is happening and the means to prevent it from happening.

erwindoc

<< <i>

<< <i>by "terminal toning" are you suggesting that every toned coin will eventually turn black? >>



EXCELLENT question. It's actually one that I've been thinking about since toners really went gangbusters and just started to take off. Personally, in all honesty, I thought it (by 'it', I mean a REAL desire for toners) wouldn't last, but, DAYUM, just a REALLY quick look at past auction results (and God knows how many threads are brought up about toning), there's 'proof in the pudding' that premiums are still very big. I was WAY wrong. I'm personally not a fan of toning, almost as much a non-fan of toning as ricko is....I MUCH prefer blast white.

BUT...... I've have thought about this exact same question for quite some time (and still am), I've thought about that question since the prices REALLY started to boom. My thought is (and we all know the holders for the top TPG's aren't 'lock-down, nothing in or out' tightly sealed) could air (and I suppose water, not sure about length of time submerged, but....or condensation) I suppose both air and moisture could get in.....eventually. So, I'm going to say, as someone who has been around for a while, and reading the toner threads..I'd figure they COULD eventually turn that black color. Once it starts, without a dip to 'conserve' it back to white, then it gets slabbed, knowing the slabs aren't guaranteed air/water tight, I'd have to assume that eventually, at SOME point (could be 100 years, more??) it would progress to that 'color'. I could be wrong, but I consider it like rust on a car. If you don't attend to it right away, as the rust begins, and replace the panel (ie, dipping it white), said panel will eventually rot through (ie, the coin turning that black 'color'). If I were a toner fan, and KNEW for a FACT it could happen, I'd worry a bit....but as I said, who knows how long it could take. I'd love it if someone here could definitively know the answer. >>



Glad to get some discussion going. I searched the forum before posting this one. I thought it would be valuable and the above posts prove it. Thanks for commenting!!

PerryHall

<< <i>RE: the question.

without dealing in absolutes which perhaps require hundreds of years a toned coin won't turn black or even continue to tone to any noticeable degree if there are no contaminants present on the surface of the coin. I have had and have white/brilliant coins which haven't changed for decades and toned coins which haven't changed either. some have been stored in TPG holders and some in things as simple a stapled 2x2. if there's nothing on the surface to react with the silver nothing will happen in an essentially inert holder. the advantage that we have over our predecessors is knowledge of what is happening and the means to prevent it from happening. >>


Agree that proper storage virtually stops the toning process but I've seen silver coins that are charcoal black and would most certainly be "no grade" coins if submitted to any of the grading services. Terminal toning looks like these totally black coins.

bronze6827

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coppertoning

I had this coin referred to as terminal on more than one occasion. I personally loved the coin as my only walker for nearly 4 years until I replaced it.

AUandAG

<< <i>Hey Bob:

I've been watching that 81CC GSA for a long time too. I'd buy it for $100 as the ugliest GSA known. But, it would be a burial so no thanks. >>




Yes, I agree. He ought to pop it out and spend it, that's what I would do.

bob

LotsoLuck