Does or should PCGS certify Liberty Dollar / NORFED coins from Bernard Von NotHaus?
Zoins
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If so, this could be an interesting development for the hobby.
The reason I ask is because PCGS does certify Liberty Dollar bills from Von NotHaus:
The reason I ask is because PCGS does certify Liberty Dollar bills from Von NotHaus:
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I'm aware the question was from 2013. Six years later I believe the Numismatic Society is prime for moving forward on Grading NORFED Liberty Dollars. There are many Designs. High Quality, they range from hard to find to extreamly RARE, you can build sets and the hunt for individual raritys will bring the interest and desire for all ages to get excited in Numismatics again. They sell on several websites. I've been saying NORFED's have been the greatest hidden Treasure of the Numismatic Society. I'm willing to help move this forward since I personally have graded thousands of NORFED Liberty Dollars.
PLEASE take this serious. I believe most collectors would pay a premium to have them graded by PCGS. As for now ANACS is the only choice.
I personally back this move by posting my full name.
Robert A. Haire
Owner of the 360 Edge Viewing Optics
I am a TRUE Lover of NORFED Liberty Dollars.
Anyone who would like to work with me on making this possible, please contact me at:
evo.360halocoin@yahoo.com
@fatcatbobcat....Welcome aboard.... I do not have any NORFED dollars myself, but certainly agree they should be graded. Cheers, RickO
Had to Google for pix. Bullion.
PCGS certifies a lot of bullion
So this could be an argument to slab them.
Not trying to sound sarcastic, but if there is a demand and PCGS can turn a profit, then I don't see why they shouldn't slab them.
PCGS slabs Lesher Dollars so there is a precedent for slabbing privately issued bullion coins. I see no reason not to slab them.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
They are numismatic history just like other "coins" that have come before them, the Lesher Dollars probably being the most famous.
There are enough of the LDs that the value probably wouldn't rise much above bullion value for most issues, at least not for many years to come.
There is the added complication that some of the Liberty Dollar designs were declared to be illegal counterfeits in the court case in which Bernard von Nothaus was convicted.
And don't forget - in addition to silver there were also a few gold and several copper issues.
Private minted bullion not to mention I believe these coins were deemed illegal by the US gooberment. Why on earth would a company such as PCGS want to support this type of illegal activity?
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
there are plenty of other TPG's that I'm sure could be persuaded to grade these, why not just go there to get your silver rounds encapsulated??
Not all LDs were declared illegal - only some.
I was in the class of claimants who got some of their confiscated LDs back from the feds.
Bernard von NotHaus never spent a day in jail. In the end he spent 60 days house arrest. The Government was made to give all Liberty Dollars back to each owner and investors. NORFED's are and have always been legal to owen, buy, sell and trade. The secret service never band them. That was fake news used to have them removed off E-bay. It didn't last. There now for sale on several sites. To say PCGS or NGC would not grade them because there bullion is crazy. They been grading Silver Eagles from day one. I also believe the Liberty Dollars are extreamly valuable. I've seen and have proof they have sold for $100's and even $1,000's
When you have mintage numbers of 10,000 to an average of 1,000 and some were minted less then 100. That makes them extremely RARE! That equals BIG $. I personally would pay a premium for grading do to there value.
Me to.
I got in the game with them a short while before the lawsuit. I too got all my silver back although I didn't have much.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I think PCGS would be more likely to slab these coins/tokens if there were some scholarly reference book that organizes and photographs each coin/token including any major varieties and assigns a number to each coin/token. This is the case with pioneer gold coins, HTT's, CWT's, and SCD's which the major grading services now slab.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Like it or not, these pieces have a rabid fan base who are willing to pony up big money. Check recently ended NORFED auctions on eBay and you'll see what I mean. Individual rounds can sell for hundreds of dollars.
To me they're bullion, and I've seen better. If they're going to be slabbed, I think ATS would be a better match.
--Severian the Lame
NORFED Liberty Dollar Designs, Coin Numbers and Values some have sold. This site is ran and owened by Ron Goodger.
This site discusses $10 Base $20 Base and $50 Base. Liberty Dollars can be found in
5 ounce, 2 Ounce, 1 Ounce, 1/2, 1/4 and 1/20th ounce. They are minted in Silver, Gold, Copper, Platinum and Pewter. You'll find that each design is numbered and mintage mentioned. You'll also see Hallmarks, Die Sets, Prototypes and much much more.
This site also discusses early on Hawaiian Dalas. This data is all one needs to build sets, find RARE Die Sets and start you TREASURE Hunt. This site will more than aid the gradding houses in grading NORFED Liberty Dollars. Please take the time and enjoy the history and load of data that will more than impress. If you find this site as helpful as I, please donate to keep this site relevant.
There is now a BOOK of NORFED Liberty Dollars for sale on this site.
The Liberty Dollar - From Concept to Crypto book measures 8-1/2 X 11 inches, contains 360 pages, lots of historic photos, presents the complete history of the currency and features four long chapters on the legal history of the Liberty Dollar. It also contains a 30 page Coin Catalog of every issue that features the Lady Liberty image or the LIBERTY DOLLAR name from 1992 to 2018.
https://sites.google.com/site/libertydollarencyclopedia/
As a grader of thousands of NORFED Liberty Dollars, This is a valuable site full of information. I worked dirrectely with Bernard, Dave Gille and others That distributed. They were a great wealth of knowledge. But I believe any grading house would find all necessary info on the website and in the "NEW BOOK"
PCGS
Let's get these NORFED Graded PLEASE.
This simply is not true. I was personally part of the class that petitioned to get back LDs that were confiscated in the FBI raid on LD headquarters.
BvN indeed did not go to jail but he was in fact convicted of counterfeiting based on a jury's (absurd) decision that certain LDs were too close in appearance to US coins. The LDs that led to that verdict were deemed to be counterfeit coins and were not returned to the owners.
To repeat: some LDs were NOT returned to their owners. Somewhere I have the court documents that include details of the names, addresses, and specific LDs involved.
I opposed the confiscation, support the collecting of LDs, and wish more services would slab them. But the facts are the facts.
Norfed Liberty dollars along with Gallery Mint Museum, Daniel Carr and more are being
graded by pcgs for some time now. If its in the Krause Unusual coins.
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I uploaded only one page to give everyone an idea.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
"As a grader of thousands of NORFED Liberty Dollars..."
...For whom?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Since these were adjudicated to be counterfeits, I'm surprised any grading service would grade them. I might see a "not genuine" or "counterfeit" label though.
Then prepare to be surprised
PCGS and other TPGs straight grade counterfeits like the Machins Mills half penny. Also ANACS straight grades these Liberty Dollars.
This is a 1989 Shelter Dollar (quantity minted, less than 500) it's listed as SCARCE! (highest known private sale $1200 4/12/2012)
The one in the pictures has unusual mark in the 4th Ray in Liberty's Crown. I have seen many first run (Prototype) coins with marked die's. I believe were looking at the First or one of the first Prototype Shelter Dollars. 99% of my NORFED's come from Jeff Kotchounian, Dave Gillie or Bernard von NotHaus. This Dollar come from an unknown source selling Silver Rounds on a bullion site in 2009. This Dollar is Graded, Slabbed, along with a Bernard signature on the Reverse side of the slab. I believe we are looking at the first year prototype. Making it Priceless to any high end collector.
It's been a while since my last post due to heath reasons. I wanted to answer telephoto1 question. What TPGS did I work for while grading NORFED Liberty Dollars. It was MMNS 2009 TO 2012 & MNS 2012 To the end of 2013. Masters Numismatic Services. The picture below is a small batch of graded NORFEDS.
That's an incredible display @fatcatbobcat !
Thanks, I appreciate that.
Sorry for the long delay. I posted your answer above with a picture.
It's great that you worked for MMNS! Did they slab a lot of Liberty Dollars?
I haven't seen many of these slabs but @THOMAS655 posted a number of MMNS slabs from Don Ensley's So-Called Dollar collection the following thread:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/951173/so-called-dollar-pedigrees/p1
Don Ensley slabbed hundreds of So-Called Dollars with MMNS. It was a great relationship. Don truly had the passion and knowledge for the So-Called Dollars. I had meet Jeff Shevlin a little over a year ago at the F.U.N. Show in Orlando. He had mentioned he purchased some of Don Ensely's collection. Jeff is a great guy and had a very favorable opinion of MMNS. He was happy to put a face to the MMNS company. The Numismatic Society is truly filled with quality people and is the greatest Hobby in the world, yet It's a small world.
PCGS slabs Lesher Dollars so there is a precedent for slabbing privately issued bullion coins. I see no reason not to slab them.
while these are indeed bullion it's probably more accurate to describe them as medals. they are listed in "Unusual World Coins" 6th Edition and according to the PCGS website they are eligible for encapsulation. however, quite a few other listing from that reference which should also be eligible have been rejected by PCGS, they refuse to place them in a holder bearing their name. this speaks loudly to me.
I know it may sound harsh for me to say as much, but until these are encapsulated by someone other than what amounts to little more than a self-slabber they will remain as bullion. the responses in this thread should make that clear. another thing is abundantly clear to me: since new member fatcatbobcat has all of his eight posts right here in this thread it is clear he's not much more than a promoter of these rounds and of the service that encapsulated them. my word of the week is disingenuous, I think he should stop pretending to be doing anything other than promote. it's strikes me as spam.
as always, JMHO.
Tough crowd
ANACS certifies Liberty Dollar medallions By Paul Gilkes Published: Feb 23, 2014
not to be argumentative, but unless ANACS has the current slabs really aren't gonna help validate these.
I see you removed my last post addressing your concerns of self promoting a grading house.
Fact: MMNS / MNS closed December 2013. I was also asked about the company and I replied.
Am I promoting NORFED Dollars? YES. The Numismatic Society has been Looking for "THE NEXT BEST THING" Something to bringing new blood, new young collector's into the Worlds Greatest Hobby.
There are many Numismatics being over look and The NORFEDS are a great example. The Dollars are widely priced making them obtainable for new collectors and advanced collectors. Most important they are a good investment. Having my last post removed was out of line.
So stop passing judgement, and remember one thing, people that pass judgement without knowledge must stop. It's actions you have taken and comments you made that continue to turn new blood off and turning existing collectors away.
So sorry you were so offended. By the way, all my post were in this thread because it's my first, and now my last thread because of comments like yours.
I'm not quite understanding this. Is there a word missing after "has"?
Also, I'm not sure people are looking for validation as much as uniform protection of their collection.
For me, I like the TrueViews
yes, changed. sorry for the confusion, my brain sometimes goes faster than my fingers!!
as for validation, it would make these seem like legitimate "coins/medals/tokens" if PCGS or NGC encapsulated them. as it is now, and reflected by posts, these are seen as nothing but silver rounds.
Because other TPGS's slab them? At one time major TPGS did not do many varieties, then they only did Redbook varieties, now they do more. Same goes for problem coins. At first they didn't want "junk" in their holders in order to encourage sight unseen trading. Now... At one time ancients and tokens were not considered.
Give it time.
The prices that some of them realize (well in excess of the scrap value) indicates otherwise.
Dan, that probably just indicates a very small, dedicated number of collectors view them differently.
That sounds like it can describe anything with a thin market like patterns, varieties and, dare I say, So-Called Dollars. Basically, most things that you don’t want to sell with a 99 cent auction.
well, not really.
I can't put my finger on it, but you seem to have personal issues with the NORFED Liberty Dollars. At this point the Numismatic Society should embrace any and all options that would drive any interest for new young collectors. I would also like to address the cost of the NORFED's going up. There not in production anymore. The quantities minted would make most coin's Rare to Extremely Rare. Along with multiple Designs, High Quality, sets, Varieties, Hallmarks and multiple Metals drive the NORFED's to be Highly Collectable. Due to my connections to NORFED's, I'm always being contacted for the rarities. They are in high demand. Also , I would love to hear your take on Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint Designs.
Thanks, Fatcatbobcat
your inept use of the English language and spelling aside, trust me, nobody wants to hear my "take" on DC's work.
I enjoy the discussions between 20K ***** and 10 * members when they are respectful to each other. We did almost thirty "Norfed's" this week not counting two more an hour ago. I've had to purchase a few on Ebay for myself as I believe that they will be worthwhile over their melt value.
Norfed Liberty dollars along with Gallery Mint Museum, Daniel Carr and more are being
graded by pcgs for some time now. If its in the Krause Unusual coins.
as I said earlier, although PCGS states clearly that they will encapsulate certain items, they don't always do what they say they will. I have sent "Unusual World Coin" listed coins/tokens to PCGS and they have been returned as not eligible. this is probably good, it keeps the boys at ANACS busy and allows PCGS to focus on real coins.
Wow! What a neat collection @fatcatbobcat .
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Can anyone tell me the mintage on the counter-stamped 1998 one?
Also, it looks from google searching that the counter stamped was done after
the government returned these. Is this so?
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Not my pic nor auction.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Well, I went ahead and purchased this 1998. Curious.....I received a wooden box and it says first first year of issue
Recovered 2018. I did read that these were taken and then given back by the government. Then a counter stamp
was applied under the date to show it was okay to own. Not sure if this was a sales ploy but either way its a low mintage
of 150 and cool wooden box.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
To answer the OP,
Yes, I believe PCGS should grade these medals, under the Token and Medal category, using the recent book numbering system and pictures that document these Norfed private mint medals as a reference.
Since these are not US coins, this discussion might be best moved over to the PCGS Registry Set forum to see what interest there is for building such a set in the Registry?
There are a lot of people who collect these medals, and with a new, more complete reference book it should be added to the Registry for historical documentation.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Those are nice certificates. I have a couple very early ones, additionally hand autographed. Did you just have yours graded in the past month? I did not know PCGS graded them. Where are they listed to determine varieties?
thanks
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I think this is the appropriate forum for now. We actually talk about US tokens and medals in this forum too so it's not just coins.
Also, there really can't be a Registry Set if the pieces aren't graded, so grading needs to come first.
Those certificates aren't mine. I found the photos back in 2013 when I created this thread. I'm surprised it took until 2019 to get the first response but I'm glad for the conversation now. I own a number of the medals including the original issue, a pattern restrike, and a unique Ron Landis 2004 Sixth Anniversary Fair token in silver.