<< <i> Let's not forget that perhaps the biggest bully in the history of sport was Michael Jordan, and he certainly had what you would call a winning locker room. >>
You think what Incognito did and what Jordan did are similar?
I strongly recommend everyone watches Incognito's interview with Glazer. Afterward, Incognito handed over his phone to Glazer and printed out the texts between him and Martin. The last text from Martin was (paraphrased): Leaks didn't come from me and it absolutely doesn't have anything to do with you. It's the football and locker room culture.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
And as a side note: After seeing how sausage is made, some people are so disgusted they never eat one again. Others just shake it off and continue eating them because the deliciousness significantly outweighs the unappetizing process.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
"Richie Incognito spoke publicly about his role in the bullying of Jonathan Martin for the first time today. He was interviewed by Fox Sports' Jay Glazer, who's given Incognito MMA training and has a personal and (presumed) business relationship with him. The interview was a joke.
The segment was more theater than journalism, with Glazer lobbing obviously pre-determined questions at Incognito, allowing him to reel off as many face-saving platitudes as possible. Incognito said things like: "This isn't an issue about bullying. This is an issue about my and Jon's relationship where I've taken stuff too far," and, "I can be accountable for my actions, and my actions were coming from a place of love." This is essentially what it sounds like when a domestic abuser tries to explain himself."
<< <i>And as a side note: After seeing how sausage is made, some people are so disgusted they never eat one again. Others just shake it off and continue eating them because the deliciousness significantly outweighs the unappetizing process. >>
I'm glad you find racism and bullying 'deliciousness'.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Stown if you can't grasp why a guy who has a personal relationship with the guy he's interviewing as being cause for a conflict of interest, then there is nothing else to be said. It's a little something called journalistic integrity something you obviously don't care about as long as it supports your wildly out of date and out of touch notion that racism and physical bullying have a place in an nfl locker room.
<< <i> Let's not forget that perhaps the biggest bully in the history of sport was Michael Jordan, and he certainly had what you would call a winning locker room. >>
You think what Incognito did and what Jordan did are similar? >>
Absolutely. Not identical, perhaps, but certainly similar. According to Andrew Sharp, here's the transcript of one (likely of many, though who knows for sure) exchange between Jordan and Kwame Brown:
Play stopped. There was an electric silence. A wide-eyed Jordan was walking toward him. "You f***g flaming f----t," Jordan exploded. "You don't get a foul call on a little goddamn touch foul, you f***g f----t. You don't bring that f----ty s**t here. Get your go***n ass back on the floor and play. I don't want to hear that s**t out of you again. Get your a** back and play, you f----t."
And remember, this is the older, more mature Jordan. God knows what all he did in the 90's. We know he punched Steve Kerr, and I imagine that's only the tip of the iceberg. In any case, if you accept that the general definition of bullying is to exploit an existing power imbalance in order to make someone feel inferior, then it's hard to argue that Jordan wasn't bullying Kwame Brown. Hell, he might have ruined the kid's career (a point that's been speculated on before).
I'm not looking to defend Richie Incognito, or vilify Jonathan Martin. All I'm saying is that there are some people who probably don't have the disposition to play pro football, given the current cultural conditions in the sport. As far as that goes, I'm sure that I'm one of those people. Even if I ran a 4.3, put up 35 reps on the bench, and had hands as soft as Jerry Rice's, I'm nearly sure I wouldn't last more than one season. Richie Incognito is a moron; there's no question about it. But he's also the product of a very particular culture- and we shouldn't forget that either.
But Martin was already a starting football player. He started every game. If he needed to be 'toughened up' (as the dolphins coaching staff said to do) then why was he starting every game.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i> Absolutely. Not identical, perhaps, but certainly similar. According to Andrew Sharp, here's the transcript of one (likely of many, though who knows for sure) exchange between Jordan and Kwame Brown:
Play stopped. There was an electric silence. A wide-eyed Jordan was walking toward him. "You f***g flaming f----t," Jordan exploded. "You don't get a foul call on a little goddamn touch foul, you f***g f----t. You don't bring that f----ty s**t here. Get your go***n ass back on the floor and play. I don't want to hear that s**t out of you again. Get your a** back and play, you f----t." >>
And this is one of many reasons why Jordan has failed at a historical rate in running a franchise.
<< <i>And remember, this is the older, more mature Jordan. God knows what all he did in the 90's. We know he punched Steve Kerr, and I imagine that's only the tip of the iceberg. In any case, if you accept that the general definition of bullying is to exploit an existing power imbalance in order to make someone feel inferior, then it's hard to argue that Jordan wasn't bullying Kwame Brown. Hell, he might have ruined the kid's career (a point that's been speculated on before). >>
"The two guards were matched up in a scrimmage. It was intense. Jordan had heard the critics after the Bulls’ playoff loss to the Orlando Magic and intended to silence them. He averaged 26.9 points in the final 17 regular-season games after coming out of retirement, but shot only 41 percent from the field. The postseason defeat to the Magic in the conference semifinals, his first series loss since 1990, had some suggesting his best years were behind him. At 32 years old, Jordan was hell-bent on proving otherwise. It was palpable in every drill, every time down the floor.
He and Kerr talked trash on a couple of possessions, and then it escalated.
“I took exception to something he said,” Kerr says. “So I was talking back and I don’t think Michael appreciated that ... and we got in the lane and he gave me a forearm shiver to the chest and I pushed him back. And next thing you know, our teammates were pulling him off of me.”
Jordan made the call within the hour and apologized. They talked some more at practice the next day and moved on.
<< <i> I'm not looking to defend Richie Incognito, or vilify Jonathan Martin. All I'm saying is that there are some people who probably don't have the disposition to play pro football, given the current cultural conditions in the sport. As far as that goes, I'm sure that I'm one of those people. Even if I ran a 4.3, put up 35 reps on the bench, and had hands as soft as Jerry Rice's, I'm nearly sure I wouldn't last more than one season. Richie Incognito is a moron; there's no question about it. But he's also the product of a very particular culture- and we shouldn't forget that either. >>
Again, Martin had started each and every game since being drafted, and was drafted in the second round. So the commentary here is that he didn't have the 'stuff' to handle playing pro football? Or maybe, just maybe, what Incognito did was so far out of bounds (and given his history in the NFL that's not much of a stretch) that Incognito, not Martin, is the one not cut out to handle the NFL?
<< <i> Absolutely. Not identical, perhaps, but certainly similar. According to Andrew Sharp, here's the transcript of one (likely of many, though who knows for sure) exchange between Jordan and Kwame Brown:
Play stopped. There was an electric silence. A wide-eyed Jordan was walking toward him. "You f***g flaming f----t," Jordan exploded. "You don't get a foul call on a little goddamn touch foul, you f***g f----t. You don't bring that f----ty s**t here. Get your go***n ass back on the floor and play. I don't want to hear that s**t out of you again. Get your a** back and play, you f----t." >>
And this is one of many reasons why Jordan has failed at a historical rate in running a franchise.
<< <i>And remember, this is the older, more mature Jordan. God knows what all he did in the 90's. We know he punched Steve Kerr, and I imagine that's only the tip of the iceberg. In any case, if you accept that the general definition of bullying is to exploit an existing power imbalance in order to make someone feel inferior, then it's hard to argue that Jordan wasn't bullying Kwame Brown. Hell, he might have ruined the kid's career (a point that's been speculated on before). >>
"The two guards were matched up in a scrimmage. It was intense. Jordan had heard the critics after the Bulls’ playoff loss to the Orlando Magic and intended to silence them. He averaged 26.9 points in the final 17 regular-season games after coming out of retirement, but shot only 41 percent from the field. The postseason defeat to the Magic in the conference semifinals, his first series loss since 1990, had some suggesting his best years were behind him. At 32 years old, Jordan was hell-bent on proving otherwise. It was palpable in every drill, every time down the floor.
He and Kerr talked trash on a couple of possessions, and then it escalated.
“I took exception to something he said,” Kerr says. “So I was talking back and I don’t think Michael appreciated that ... and we got in the lane and he gave me a forearm shiver to the chest and I pushed him back. And next thing you know, our teammates were pulling him off of me.”
Jordan made the call within the hour and apologized. They talked some more at practice the next day and moved on.
<< <i> I'm not looking to defend Richie Incognito, or vilify Jonathan Martin. All I'm saying is that there are some people who probably don't have the disposition to play pro football, given the current cultural conditions in the sport. As far as that goes, I'm sure that I'm one of those people. Even if I ran a 4.3, put up 35 reps on the bench, and had hands as soft as Jerry Rice's, I'm nearly sure I wouldn't last more than one season. Richie Incognito is a moron; there's no question about it. But he's also the product of a very particular culture- and we shouldn't forget that either. >>
Again, Martin had started each and every game since being drafted, and was drafted in the second round. So the commentary here is that he didn't have the 'stuff' to handle playing pro football? Or maybe, just maybe, what Incognito did was so far out of bounds (and given his history in the NFL that's not much of a stretch) that Incognito, not Martin, is the one not cut out to handle the NFL? >>
It's absolutely possible that Incognito is the outlier here, and not Martin. This isn't the conclusion I've come to, given what we've heard from current and former NFL players who have weighed in on the topic, but I would concede that it's definitely a possibility.
Again, in regards to the informal survey conducted by ESPN of 72 players across 24 teams came up with:
" In all, the results showed that 57 of those who answered (79.2 percent) would not want Incognito as a teammate."
Now I don't know if this means they don't want the distraction of Incognito on their team, or whether his behavior which has been brought to light is the cause. Throw in reports that both the GM and coach of the Dolphins are going to be fired at the end of the year, and more and more it seems like what happened in Miami was the exception rather than the rule in regards to hazing and the locker room in general.
<< <i>But Martin was already a starting football player. He started every game. If he needed to be 'toughened up' (as the dolphins coaching staff said to do) then why was he starting every game. >>
Because they'd rather be cowards and blame the victim rather than being the six figure professionals they're supposed to be and nip this in the bud.
I know there are lots of angles to this discussion, but for me it all comes down to this..........
"Is intimidation allowed in pro sports?"
Let's say for argument sake that intimidation is not allowed in pro sports (in other words, let's say Martin wins a case against Incognito).
Then, you'll create a situation where any player on the football, basketball, baseball field, or hockey rink, can sue an opponent and the league of that sport if there is any type of intimidation ever again.
I for one wouldn't mind a league where good sportsmanship was the norm rather than the exception. I feel that baseball is a superior game to basketball and football because it's a gentleman's game, like golf. But football is more of a gothic game. It should be called gridiron for it's physical toughness. We've all heard George Carlin compare baseball to football. If you haven't heard it, youtube it.
<< <i>And as a side note: After seeing how sausage is made, some people are so disgusted they never eat one again. Others just shake it off and continue eating them because the deliciousness significantly outweighs the unappetizing process. >>
I'm glad you find racism and bullying 'deliciousness'. >>
Seems pretty obvious that the "deliciousness" he was referring to was football with the bullying being the "unappetizing process". Not sure how you could have read it any other way.
Do you have any interaction with humans in person ? Do you have any understanding that in this world there are different opinions and views which may not support your silo'd world ? The world is BIG place. Those that can only handle what exists in their single small brain, and are not capable of understanding, even grasping the facts and views from others is in trouble. You are one that has single little thoughts, then pursues defense, and is not capable of giving in. when losing. The only option for you in reality is to start something new in life, which has benefit to the world.
<< <i> Do you have any understanding that in this world there are different opinions and views which may not support your silo'd world ? >>
Pot, meet kettle. Sitting there in judgment of me about my lack of differing views when your beef with me revolves around MY differing opinions is the height of hypocrisy. Last time I checked, we're all free to have differing views. You don't like what I have to say? Then ignore me. I honestly couldn't care less if you ever posted here again. Your posts are nonsensical, meandering, and you seem to go out of your way to make your posts as cryptic and as unreadable as possible. That being said, this has NOTHING to do with the topic of Richie Incognito. Just like the Joe Pa autograph thread, in which you felt the need to comment how 'creepy Penn State' is, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Kinda odd that Martin's lawyer is asking the public to make decisions in the beginning of an investigation. First time I've seen that but to each his own.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
As I've said from the beginning, a team with a real coach and real leadership from the top would never have allowed this thug Incognito to run rampant like this. Now, it appears I'm not alone in that assessment:
"Many say their locker rooms never would have allowed such a situation to smolder
Tennessee Titans safety Bernard Pollard fumes every time he hears more details about the controversy inside the Miami Dolphins locker room.
Even though he has no connections to the franchise, the bizarre twists and turns of the drama surrounding Dolphins offensive linemen Richie Incognito and Jonathan Martin irritate him: allegations of bullying, the vile voice mail message, the loyalty to Incognito displayed by his teammates and the overwhelming disdain they expressed for Martin since his departure from the team. And Incognito's reference to Martin as a "half-n-----" left Pollard so incensed that the safety said, "I get pissed off just hearing about that part."
Pollard believes the Dolphins controversy never would have occurred on the Super Bowl-winning Baltimore Ravens team that he played on last season, one that included dominant personalities such as Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Ray Rice. If there is anything that is supposed to be a given in the NFL, it's that the locker room will always police itself."
Interesting read. Martin and Incognito seemed to be pretty good buddies.
Their language reminds me of how the guys talked on my old high school teams. That wasn't my thing, but the casual daily language of some of the guys I played sports with, if taken out of context, seemed like the violent threats of people who hated each other.
I know this isnt "Socially acceptable" and its going to cause '85 fan to flip out but I dont care so here it is.
People need to toughen the F up, someones giving you crap? Give it back at a higher level and dont back down. Im telling you that is the best thing you can do rather than play the victim card. This guy Martin should have smashed incognito in the face and not stopped until he was ripped off of him if his feelings were so hurt, Im tired of all this stupid crap. I used to get regular beatings by older and bigger kids at the bust stop at an early age and guess what? Nobody gave a rats a$$ and I never cried about it to anyone, I know plenty of people who have gone through the same thing and laugh about it to this day.
I truly believe that this "Social change" of making a big deal out of this bullying crap has had an adverse effect on todays young people and forcing those who get picked on to actually believe that its such a big deal rather than it being a part of growing up.
Im probably in the minority on this here but thats my 2 cents.
Perk, this is nothing about toughening up, and your attitude is barbaric. You obviously don't care and what transpired was nothing more than systematic and widespread abuse.
I'd love you to tell Martin to his face that he should have been tougher. It's easy for keyboard cowboys like you to pop off like this. I'd love for you to tell Martin his problem was he wasn't tough enough.
<< <i>Perk, this is nothing about toughening up, and your attitude is barbaric. You obviously don't care and what transpired was nothing more than systematic and widespread abuse.
I'd love you to tell Martin to his face that he should have been tougher. It's easy for keyboard cowboys like you to pop off like this. I'd love for you to tell Martin his problem was he wasn't tough enough. >>
Im not being a keyboard cowboy you argumentitive punk, your response would be justified if I were typing away that I was tougher than him but thats not the case at all so simmer down. And dont be crying that Im barbaric either, just because you are probably the most sensitive poster ever doesnt give you the right to call people out like you do and argue with everyone here, in fact Id say YOU are the keyboard Cowboy because its easy to argue with everyone here behind the keyboard and not face to face.
And your 100% correct I dont care that some NFL Lineman couldnt hold his own in a lockeroom, the way he went about this is was completely wrong and you like everyone else doesnt know exactly what happened. Maybe your right because I dont know all the facts and then again maybe Im right too as You dont know all the facts either.
If you don't think bullying is a real problem then I don't know what to tell you. If you think it's making a mountain out of a molehill then there's no reaching you. But it's REAL problem and workplace intimidation is as well.
Telling someone who's a victim of intimidation and bullying toughen up? Give me a break.
<< <i>If you don't think bullying is a real problem then I don't know what to tell you. If you think it's making a mountain out of a molehill then there's no reaching you. But it's REAL problem and workplace intimidation is as well.
Telling someone who's a victim of intimidation and bullying toughen up? Give me a break. >>
Again just like you started your crusade about the Redskins team name and all your BS about actually giving a crap about the American Indian your acting like your the new advocate for anti bullying now, you give me a break, in real life do you even do one thing to back up your strong talk here? Or Are you just being that Keyboard Cowboy because in the real world you dont have the balls to speak your mind?
You argue argue argue because thats what you like to do, try to understand that just because your firm in your beliefs doesnt mean that other peoples beliefs are wrong.
<< <i> Again just like you started your crusade about the Redskins team name and all your BS about actually giving a crap about the American Indian your acting like your the new advocate for anti bullying now, you give me a break, in real life do you even do one thing to back up your strong talk here? Or Are you just being that Keyboard Cowboy because in the real world you dont have the balls to speak your mind? >>
What does that have to do with you telling victims of intimidation and bullying they just need to 'toughen up'? What does that have to do with you suggesting that bullying is just a figment of softening of America?
<< <i>You argue argue argue because thats what you like to do, try to understand that just because your firm in your beliefs doesnt mean that other peoples beliefs are wrong. >>
Again, what does this have to do with you thinking victims of bullying are just 'soft' who need to lash out and attack and grow a thicker skin? What does this have to do with you placing the blame of bullying on the victim and not the instigator?
<< <i>I truly believe that this "Social change" of making a big deal out of this bullying crap has had an adverse effect on todays young people and forcing those who get picked on to actually believe that its such a big deal rather than it being a part of growing up. Im probably in the minority on this here but thats my 2 cents. >>
Nope, Paul, I am right there with you on this one.
<< <i>I truly believe that this "Social change" of making a big deal out of this bullying crap has had an adverse effect on todays young people and forcing those who get picked on to actually believe that its such a big deal rather than it being a part of growing up. Im probably in the minority on this here but thats my 2 cents. >>
Nope, Paul, I am right there with you on this one. >>
Not me. Kids are legally forced to attend school and should be afforded a certain protection from being harassed. Problem is, it is often lip service and the educators often fail to protect their students which makes the situation worse.
In the NFL, let them have way with it. Offended player can walk out the door, which is what happened in the Miami example.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore.
I played high school football for four years at one of the largest schools in the state. When I entered high school I was 5'3" and maybe weighed 125 lbs. When I graduated, I was about 5'8" and perhaps 160 lbs. I played free safety for two years and cornerback my last two years. Believe me, I heard EVERYTHING from my teammates. They were bigger than me and gave me crap over everything. So, did I pout and cry about it? Nope. I took it like a man, and dished out double helpings of it back. I hit harder in practice than anyone else. I outworked them and I made sure that they knew if they messed with me that they were going to get hurt, even if I was smaller than them. And when I played, I laid out opposing receivers and backs that got into my area. And if they got the chance to plant me on the ground they took it. And we respected that. And I talked smack to them. And I used every insult that I could think of. And that was ok. And the other team did the same. And that was ok too. I got called every racist/homophobic/any other kind of slur you could think of. And yeah, I used a bunch of them too. We'd say anything to each other if it would give us an advantage. And we all toughened up from it.
Nowadays, people get offended about darned near everything. I'd love to live in a world full of rainbows and sunshine where everyone loves one another and we all pitch in and help each other out and it's a big giant lovefest. But, that is not the world we live in. So, for me, I'd rather have Richie Incognito as a teammate than someone that feels the same way as he does, but smiles at you and is politically correct about everything. Is he a racist? Maybe. Is he the only one in pro football? Hardly. And that goes for all races. But, at least with Richie, you know what you are getting and you know where you stand with him.
I will guarantee you with 100% confidence that Richie Incognito will have the opportunity to play in the NFL next year unless Roger Goodell suspends him. Some team will look at the opportunity to sign a good offensive lineman at a cheap price and will determine that the good outweighs the bad. Jonathan Martin? Maybe... maybe not.
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable.
<< <i>someones giving you crap? Give it back at a higher level and don't back down. >>
How do school shootings happen again? >>
Smart post
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable. >>
If that's the case, then Incognito should be let off the hook in this whole thing. He wasn't being a "bully."
A friend punching me in the arm and saying "What up, punk?" is totally different than a stranger (or an enemy) coming up and doing the same.
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable. >>
If that's the case, then Incognito should be let off the hook in this whole thing. He wasn't being a "bully."
A friend punching me in the arm and saying "What up, punk?" is totally different than a stranger (or an enemy) coming up and doing the same. >>
But that punching in the arm isn't what happened. Incognito coerced Martin into paying 15k for a trip. There were repeated incidents of physical intimation. These aren't the actions of buddies-they're the actions and behavior of a systematic bully forcing his will upon others.
From the link.. "Text messages that later became public showed the two players traded more than 1,000 text messages in a year's span, and the teasing and vulgar banter went both ways, with references to sex, drugs, violence and bawdy behavior, often in a jocular tone."
That right there sums it up for me, in this arena that type of stuff actually builds comradary and is done between guys who assume know that its off the cuff and meant to me in fun BECAUSE it goes both ways. Gimme a freaking break, I get comments directed towards me in fun all the time and we laugh about it BOTH ways. If Martin was so hurt and offended he never should have engaged in this behavior to begin with and stated that it bothered him right off the bat, had he done that and the harrasment/joking continued then I would agree that he was bullied and has a leg to stand on.
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable. >>
If that's the case, then Incognito should be let off the hook in this whole thing. He wasn't being a "bully."
A friend punching me in the arm and saying "What up, punk?" is totally different than a stranger (or an enemy) coming up and doing the same. >>
But that punching in the arm isn't what happened. Incognito coerced Martin into paying 15k for a trip. There were repeated incidents of physical intimation. These aren't the actions of buddies-they're the actions and behavior of a systematic bully forcing his will upon others. >>
I will 100% agree that this is completely wrong leaving a guy with a bill, definately no need for that stuff.
<< <i>Text messages that later became public showed the two players traded more than 1,000 text messages in a year's span, and the teasing and vulgar banter went both ways, with references to sex, drugs, violence and bawdy behavior, often in a jocular tone." >>
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable. >>
Sounds EXACTLY like the last few years with my parents (in particular my "father" who was nothing but a bully thug)...I was not comfortable being in that environment, they did not care in the least about that insisting that I "over sensitive" so to an extent I did try to "play along" thinking I was "supposed" to do it. Needless to say I reached a breaking point and couldn't take it anymore and got into a nice cheap apartment in town the first chance I got (I was even preparing to run away if it had become neccesary...even though it would've been a 15 mile walk into town). That's the basic gist of it and for obvious reasons I don't wish to go into more detail. But it would not surprise me one bit if Martin did what you suggested thinking it was how you're supposed to "fit in".
Even to this day we are not on speaking terms. But that's okay because I do have a good loving family of my own now. My lovely wife of 8 2/3 years and our little boy Jamiee. Hee hee, he just climbed up on my computer monitor table...he's such a cutie (in case you can't tell he's a cat).
Comments
<< <i>
Let's not forget that perhaps the biggest bully in the history of sport was Michael Jordan, and he certainly had what you would call a winning locker room. >>
You think what Incognito did and what Jordan did are similar?
I bet Jay starts releasing the texts via his twitter account: https://twitter.com/JayGlazer
edited to add: they just posted the video LINK
Hilarious that people want to use this as evidence. Some people love being naive and ignorant I suppose.
The segment was more theater than journalism, with Glazer lobbing obviously pre-determined questions at Incognito, allowing him to reel off as many face-saving platitudes as possible. Incognito said things like: "This isn't an issue about bullying. This is an issue about my and Jon's relationship where I've taken stuff too far," and, "I can be accountable for my actions, and my actions were coming from a place of love." This is essentially what it sounds like when a domestic abuser tries to explain himself."
<< <i>And as a side note: After seeing how sausage is made, some people are so disgusted they never eat one again. Others just shake it off and continue eating them because the deliciousness significantly outweighs the unappetizing process. >>
I'm glad you find racism and bullying 'deliciousness'.
BURN THE WITCH!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
Let's not forget that perhaps the biggest bully in the history of sport was Michael Jordan, and he certainly had what you would call a winning locker room. >>
You think what Incognito did and what Jordan did are similar? >>
Absolutely. Not identical, perhaps, but certainly similar. According to Andrew Sharp, here's the transcript of one (likely of many, though who knows for sure) exchange between Jordan and Kwame Brown:
Play stopped. There was an electric silence. A wide-eyed Jordan was walking toward him. "You f***g flaming f----t," Jordan exploded. "You don't get a foul call on a little goddamn touch foul, you f***g f----t. You don't bring that f----ty s**t here. Get your go***n ass back on the floor and play. I don't want to hear that s**t out of you again. Get your a** back and play, you f----t."
And remember, this is the older, more mature Jordan. God knows what all he did in the 90's. We know he punched Steve Kerr, and I imagine that's only the tip of the iceberg. In any case, if you accept that the general definition of bullying is to exploit an existing power imbalance in order to make someone feel inferior, then it's hard to argue that Jordan wasn't bullying Kwame Brown. Hell, he might have ruined the kid's career (a point that's been speculated on before).
I'm not looking to defend Richie Incognito, or vilify Jonathan Martin. All I'm saying is that there are some people who probably don't have the disposition to play pro football, given the current cultural conditions in the sport. As far as that goes, I'm sure that I'm one of those people. Even if I ran a 4.3, put up 35 reps on the bench, and had hands as soft as Jerry Rice's, I'm nearly sure I wouldn't last more than one season. Richie Incognito is a moron; there's no question about it. But he's also the product of a very particular culture- and we shouldn't forget that either.
<< <i>
Absolutely. Not identical, perhaps, but certainly similar. According to Andrew Sharp, here's the transcript of one (likely of many, though who knows for sure) exchange between Jordan and Kwame Brown:
Play stopped. There was an electric silence. A wide-eyed Jordan was walking toward him. "You f***g flaming f----t," Jordan exploded. "You don't get a foul call on a little goddamn touch foul, you f***g f----t. You don't bring that f----ty s**t here. Get your go***n ass back on the floor and play. I don't want to hear that s**t out of you again. Get your a** back and play, you f----t."
>>
And this is one of many reasons why Jordan has failed at a historical rate in running a franchise.
<< <i>And remember, this is the older, more mature Jordan. God knows what all he did in the 90's. We know he punched Steve Kerr, and I imagine that's only the tip of the iceberg. In any case, if you accept that the general definition of bullying is to exploit an existing power imbalance in order to make someone feel inferior, then it's hard to argue that Jordan wasn't bullying Kwame Brown. Hell, he might have ruined the kid's career (a point that's been speculated on before). >>
Kerr/Jordan Story
"The two guards were matched up in a scrimmage. It was intense. Jordan had heard the critics after the Bulls’ playoff loss to the Orlando Magic and intended to silence them. He averaged 26.9 points in the final 17 regular-season games after coming out of retirement, but shot only 41 percent from the field. The postseason defeat to the Magic in the conference semifinals, his first series loss since 1990, had some suggesting his best years were behind him. At 32 years old, Jordan was hell-bent on proving otherwise. It was palpable in every drill, every time down the floor.
He and Kerr talked trash on a couple of possessions, and then it escalated.
“I took exception to something he said,” Kerr says. “So I was talking back and I don’t think Michael appreciated that ... and we got in the lane and he gave me a forearm shiver to the chest and I pushed him back. And next thing you know, our teammates were pulling him off of me.”
Jordan made the call within the hour and apologized. They talked some more at practice the next day and moved on.
<< <i>
I'm not looking to defend Richie Incognito, or vilify Jonathan Martin. All I'm saying is that there are some people who probably don't have the disposition to play pro football, given the current cultural conditions in the sport. As far as that goes, I'm sure that I'm one of those people. Even if I ran a 4.3, put up 35 reps on the bench, and had hands as soft as Jerry Rice's, I'm nearly sure I wouldn't last more than one season. Richie Incognito is a moron; there's no question about it. But he's also the product of a very particular culture- and we shouldn't forget that either. >>
Again, Martin had started each and every game since being drafted, and was drafted in the second round. So the commentary here is that he didn't have the 'stuff' to handle playing pro football? Or maybe, just maybe, what Incognito did was so far out of bounds (and given his history in the NFL that's not much of a stretch) that Incognito, not Martin, is the one not cut out to handle the NFL?
<< <i>
<< <i>
Absolutely. Not identical, perhaps, but certainly similar. According to Andrew Sharp, here's the transcript of one (likely of many, though who knows for sure) exchange between Jordan and Kwame Brown:
Play stopped. There was an electric silence. A wide-eyed Jordan was walking toward him. "You f***g flaming f----t," Jordan exploded. "You don't get a foul call on a little goddamn touch foul, you f***g f----t. You don't bring that f----ty s**t here. Get your go***n ass back on the floor and play. I don't want to hear that s**t out of you again. Get your a** back and play, you f----t."
>>
And this is one of many reasons why Jordan has failed at a historical rate in running a franchise.
<< <i>And remember, this is the older, more mature Jordan. God knows what all he did in the 90's. We know he punched Steve Kerr, and I imagine that's only the tip of the iceberg. In any case, if you accept that the general definition of bullying is to exploit an existing power imbalance in order to make someone feel inferior, then it's hard to argue that Jordan wasn't bullying Kwame Brown. Hell, he might have ruined the kid's career (a point that's been speculated on before). >>
Kerr/Jordan Story
"The two guards were matched up in a scrimmage. It was intense. Jordan had heard the critics after the Bulls’ playoff loss to the Orlando Magic and intended to silence them. He averaged 26.9 points in the final 17 regular-season games after coming out of retirement, but shot only 41 percent from the field. The postseason defeat to the Magic in the conference semifinals, his first series loss since 1990, had some suggesting his best years were behind him. At 32 years old, Jordan was hell-bent on proving otherwise. It was palpable in every drill, every time down the floor.
He and Kerr talked trash on a couple of possessions, and then it escalated.
“I took exception to something he said,” Kerr says. “So I was talking back and I don’t think Michael appreciated that ... and we got in the lane and he gave me a forearm shiver to the chest and I pushed him back. And next thing you know, our teammates were pulling him off of me.”
Jordan made the call within the hour and apologized. They talked some more at practice the next day and moved on.
<< <i>
I'm not looking to defend Richie Incognito, or vilify Jonathan Martin. All I'm saying is that there are some people who probably don't have the disposition to play pro football, given the current cultural conditions in the sport. As far as that goes, I'm sure that I'm one of those people. Even if I ran a 4.3, put up 35 reps on the bench, and had hands as soft as Jerry Rice's, I'm nearly sure I wouldn't last more than one season. Richie Incognito is a moron; there's no question about it. But he's also the product of a very particular culture- and we shouldn't forget that either. >>
Again, Martin had started each and every game since being drafted, and was drafted in the second round. So the commentary here is that he didn't have the 'stuff' to handle playing pro football? Or maybe, just maybe, what Incognito did was so far out of bounds (and given his history in the NFL that's not much of a stretch) that Incognito, not Martin, is the one not cut out to handle the NFL? >>
It's absolutely possible that Incognito is the outlier here, and not Martin. This isn't the conclusion I've come to, given what we've heard from current and former NFL players who have weighed in on the topic, but I would concede that it's definitely a possibility.
" In all, the results showed that 57 of those who answered (79.2 percent) would not want Incognito as a teammate."
Now I don't know if this means they don't want the distraction of Incognito on their team, or whether his behavior which has been brought to light is the cause. Throw in reports that both the GM and coach of the Dolphins are going to be fired at the end of the year, and more and more it seems like what happened in Miami was the exception rather than the rule in regards to hazing and the locker room in general.
<< <i>But Martin was already a starting football player. He started every game. If he needed to be 'toughened up' (as the dolphins coaching staff said to do) then why was he starting every game. >>
Because they'd rather be cowards and blame the victim rather than being the six figure professionals they're supposed to be and nip this in the bud.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
"Is intimidation allowed in pro sports?"
Let's say for argument sake that intimidation is not allowed in pro sports (in other words, let's say Martin wins a case against Incognito).
Then, you'll create a situation where any player on the football, basketball, baseball field, or hockey rink, can sue an opponent and the league of that sport if there is any type of intimidation ever again.
I for one wouldn't mind a league where good sportsmanship was the norm rather than the exception. I feel that baseball is a superior game
to basketball and football because it's a gentleman's game, like golf. But football is more of a gothic game. It should be called gridiron for
it's physical toughness. We've all heard George Carlin compare baseball to football. If you haven't heard it, youtube it.
<< <i>
<< <i>And as a side note: After seeing how sausage is made, some people are so disgusted they never eat one again. Others just shake it off and continue eating them because the deliciousness significantly outweighs the unappetizing process. >>
I'm glad you find racism and bullying 'deliciousness'. >>
Seems pretty obvious that the "deliciousness" he was referring to was football with the bullying being the "unappetizing process". Not sure how you could have read it any other way.
<< <i>No offense,1985fan, of course, but has not your views of this world relegated you to living your world and views of it to a message board ?
<< Man, must refrain from posting when wasted. >>
We can't tell the difference. >>
Do you have any interaction with humans in person ? Do you have any understanding that in this world there are different opinions and views which may not support your silo'd world ? The world is BIG place. Those that can only handle what exists in their single small brain, and are not capable of understanding, even grasping the facts and views from others is in trouble. You are one that has single little thoughts, then pursues defense, and is not capable of giving in. when losing. The only option for you in reality is to start something new in life, which has benefit to the world.
<< <i> Do you have any understanding that in this world there are different opinions and views which may not support your silo'd world ? >>
Pot, meet kettle. Sitting there in judgment of me about my lack of differing views when your beef with me revolves around MY differing opinions is the height of hypocrisy. Last time I checked, we're all free to have differing views. You don't like what I have to say? Then ignore me. I honestly couldn't care less if you ever posted here again. Your posts are nonsensical, meandering, and you seem to go out of your way to make your posts as cryptic and as unreadable as possible. That being said, this has NOTHING to do with the topic of Richie Incognito. Just like the Joe Pa autograph thread, in which you felt the need to comment how 'creepy Penn State' is, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Link
"Many say their locker rooms never would have allowed such a situation to smolder
Tennessee Titans safety Bernard Pollard fumes every time he hears more details about the controversy inside the Miami Dolphins locker room.
Even though he has no connections to the franchise, the bizarre twists and turns of the drama surrounding Dolphins offensive linemen Richie Incognito and Jonathan Martin irritate him: allegations of bullying, the vile voice mail message, the loyalty to Incognito displayed by his teammates and the overwhelming disdain they expressed for Martin since his departure from the team. And Incognito's reference to Martin as a "half-n-----" left Pollard so incensed that the safety said, "I get pissed off just hearing about that part."
Pollard believes the Dolphins controversy never would have occurred on the Super Bowl-winning Baltimore Ravens team that he played on last season, one that included dominant personalities such as Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs and Ray Rice. If there is anything that is supposed to be a given in the NFL, it's that the locker room will always police itself."
Interesting read. Martin and Incognito seemed to be pretty good buddies.
Their language reminds me of how the guys talked on my old high school teams. That wasn't my thing, but the casual daily language of some of the guys I played sports with, if taken out of context, seemed like the violent threats of people who hated each other.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
People need to toughen the F up, someones giving you crap? Give it back at a higher level and dont back down. Im telling you that is the best thing you can do rather than play the victim card. This guy Martin should have smashed incognito in the face and not stopped until he was ripped off of him if his feelings were so hurt, Im tired of all this stupid crap. I used to get regular beatings by older and bigger kids at the bust stop at an early age and guess what? Nobody gave a rats a$$ and I never cried about it to anyone, I know plenty of people who have gone through the same thing and laugh about it to this day.
I truly believe that this "Social change" of making a big deal out of this bullying crap has had an adverse effect on todays young people and forcing those who get picked on to actually believe that its such a big deal rather than it being a part of growing up.
Im probably in the minority on this here but thats my 2 cents.
I'd love you to tell Martin to his face that he should have been tougher. It's easy for keyboard cowboys like you to pop off like this. I'd love for you to tell Martin his problem was he wasn't tough enough.
<< <i>Perk, this is nothing about toughening up, and your attitude is barbaric. You obviously don't care and what transpired was nothing more than systematic and widespread abuse.
I'd love you to tell Martin to his face that he should have been tougher. It's easy for keyboard cowboys like you to pop off like this. I'd love for you to tell Martin his problem was he wasn't tough enough. >>
Im not being a keyboard cowboy you argumentitive punk, your response would be justified if I were typing away that I was tougher than him but thats not the case at all so simmer down. And dont be crying that Im barbaric either, just because you are probably the most sensitive poster ever doesnt give you the right to call people out like you do and argue with everyone here, in fact Id say YOU are the keyboard Cowboy because its easy to argue with everyone here behind the keyboard and not face to face.
And your 100% correct I dont care that some NFL Lineman couldnt hold his own in a lockeroom, the way he went about this is was completely wrong and you like everyone else doesnt know exactly what happened. Maybe your right because I dont know all the facts and then again maybe Im right too as You dont know all the facts either.
Either way how about you lighten up
Telling someone who's a victim of intimidation and bullying toughen up? Give me a break.
<< <i>If you don't think bullying is a real problem then I don't know what to tell you. If you think it's making a mountain out of a molehill then there's no reaching you. But it's REAL problem and workplace intimidation is as well.
Telling someone who's a victim of intimidation and bullying toughen up? Give me a break. >>
Again just like you started your crusade about the Redskins team name and all your BS about actually giving a crap about the American Indian your acting like your the new advocate for anti bullying now, you give me a break, in real life do you even do one thing to back up your strong talk here? Or Are you just being that Keyboard Cowboy because in the real world you dont have the balls to speak your mind?
You argue argue argue because thats what you like to do, try to understand that just because your firm in your beliefs doesnt mean that other peoples beliefs are wrong.
<< <i>
Again just like you started your crusade about the Redskins team name and all your BS about actually giving a crap about the American Indian your acting like your the new advocate for anti bullying now, you give me a break, in real life do you even do one thing to back up your strong talk here? Or Are you just being that Keyboard Cowboy because in the real world you dont have the balls to speak your mind? >>
What does that have to do with you telling victims of intimidation and bullying they just need to 'toughen up'? What does that have to do with you suggesting that bullying is just a figment of softening of America?
<< <i>You argue argue argue because thats what you like to do, try to understand that just because your firm in your beliefs doesnt mean that other peoples beliefs are wrong. >>
Again, what does this have to do with you thinking victims of bullying are just 'soft' who need to lash out and attack and grow a thicker skin? What does this have to do with you placing the blame of bullying on the victim and not the instigator?
<< <i>I truly believe that this "Social change" of making a big deal out of this bullying crap has had an adverse effect on todays young people and forcing those who get picked on to actually believe that its such a big deal rather than it being a part of growing up. Im probably in the minority on this here but thats my 2 cents. >>
Nope, Paul, I am right there with you on this one.
<< <i>
<< <i>I truly believe that this "Social change" of making a big deal out of this bullying crap has had an adverse effect on todays young people and forcing those who get picked on to actually believe that its such a big deal rather than it being a part of growing up. Im probably in the minority on this here but thats my 2 cents. >>
Nope, Paul, I am right there with you on this one. >>
Not me. Kids are legally forced to attend school and should be afforded a certain protection from being harassed. Problem is, it is often lip service and the educators often fail to protect their students which makes the situation worse.
In the NFL, let them have way with it. Offended player can walk out the door, which is what happened in the Miami example.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Nowadays, people get offended about darned near everything. I'd love to live in a world full of rainbows and sunshine where everyone loves one another and we all pitch in and help each other out and it's a big giant lovefest. But, that is not the world we live in. So, for me, I'd rather have Richie Incognito as a teammate than someone that feels the same way as he does, but smiles at you and is politically correct about everything. Is he a racist? Maybe. Is he the only one in pro football? Hardly. And that goes for all races. But, at least with Richie, you know what you are getting and you know where you stand with him.
I will guarantee you with 100% confidence that Richie Incognito will have the opportunity to play in the NFL next year unless Roger Goodell suspends him. Some team will look at the opportunity to sign a good offensive lineman at a cheap price and will determine that the good outweighs the bad. Jonathan Martin? Maybe... maybe not.
<< <i>someones giving you crap? Give it back at a higher level and don't back down. >>
How do school shootings happen again?
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable.
<< <i>
<< <i>someones giving you crap? Give it back at a higher level and don't back down. >>
How do school shootings happen again? >>
Smart post
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable. >>
If that's the case, then Incognito should be let off the hook in this whole thing. He wasn't being a "bully."
A friend punching me in the arm and saying "What up, punk?" is totally different than a stranger (or an enemy) coming up and doing the same.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable. >>
If that's the case, then Incognito should be let off the hook in this whole thing. He wasn't being a "bully."
A friend punching me in the arm and saying "What up, punk?" is totally different than a stranger (or an enemy) coming up and doing the same. >>
But that punching in the arm isn't what happened. Incognito coerced Martin into paying 15k for a trip. There were repeated incidents of physical intimation. These aren't the actions of buddies-they're the actions and behavior of a systematic bully forcing his will upon others.
link
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
"Text messages that later became public showed the two players traded more than 1,000 text messages in a year's span, and the teasing and vulgar banter went both ways, with references to sex, drugs, violence and bawdy behavior, often in a jocular tone."
That right there sums it up for me, in this arena that type of stuff actually builds comradary and is done between guys who assume know that its off the cuff and meant to me in fun BECAUSE it goes both ways. Gimme a freaking break, I get comments directed towards me in fun all the time and we laugh about it BOTH ways. If Martin was so hurt and offended he never should have engaged in this behavior to begin with and stated that it bothered him right off the bat, had he done that and the harrasment/joking continued then I would agree that he was bullied and has a leg to stand on.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable. >>
If that's the case, then Incognito should be let off the hook in this whole thing. He wasn't being a "bully."
A friend punching me in the arm and saying "What up, punk?" is totally different than a stranger (or an enemy) coming up and doing the same. >>
But that punching in the arm isn't what happened. Incognito coerced Martin into paying 15k for a trip. There were repeated incidents of physical intimation. These aren't the actions of buddies-they're the actions and behavior of a systematic bully forcing his will upon others. >>
I will 100% agree that this is completely wrong leaving a guy with a bill, definately no need for that stuff.
<< <i>Text messages that later became public showed the two players traded more than 1,000 text messages in a year's span, and the teasing and vulgar banter went both ways, with references to sex, drugs, violence and bawdy behavior, often in a jocular tone." >>
Sounds like this place!
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems, from the released text messages, that the two guys had established a level of "intimacy" where talking that much garbage to each other was acceptable. The texts go back a year before Martin snapped.
Was the banter filthy? Yes. But Martin and Incognito were trading it and hanging out as buddies.
Incognito doesn't look like the big bad bully anymore. >>
What it seems like to me is Martin, in behavior which victims often exhibit, tried desperately to 'fit in' and assimilate with their attacker, thinking it would lessen the intimidation and make the workplace environment more tolerable.
Martin seemed to do as was suggested and 'toughen up' and tried to assimilate himself into the workplace, but it obviously became a situation that was no longer tenable. >>
Sounds EXACTLY like the last few years with my parents (in particular my "father" who was nothing but a bully thug)...I was not comfortable being in that environment, they did not care in the least about that insisting that I "over sensitive" so to an extent I did try to "play along" thinking I was "supposed" to do it. Needless to say I reached a breaking point and couldn't take it anymore and got into a nice cheap apartment in town the first chance I got (I was even preparing to run away if it had become neccesary...even though it would've been a 15 mile walk into town). That's the basic gist of it and for obvious reasons I don't wish to go into more detail. But it would not surprise me one bit if Martin did what you suggested thinking it was how you're supposed to "fit in".
Even to this day we are not on speaking terms. But that's okay because I do have a good loving family of my own now. My lovely wife of 8 2/3 years and our little boy Jamiee.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars