Options
Expansion Era HOF Ballot
mcadams
Posts: 2,617 ✭✭✭
Included in this year's Expansion Era ballot is: Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Bobby Cox, Tommy John, Tony La Russa, Billy Martin, Marvin Miller, Dave Parker, Dan Quisenberry, Ted Simmons, George Steinbrenner and Joe Torre. Election to the HOF via this path requires 75% of the vote from a 16 member panel. I think Managers Torre, Cox, and LaRussa all have a shot. To think of the history that these 3 Managers have been a part of is incredible. These 3 were all integral parts of the game during my lifetime.
Results of the Expansion Era ballot will be announced Monday, Dec. 9, on the first day of baseball’s Winter Meetings in Orlando. The 2014 induction ceremony in Cooperstown is Sunday, July 27.
Results of the Expansion Era ballot will be announced Monday, Dec. 9, on the first day of baseball’s Winter Meetings in Orlando. The 2014 induction ceremony in Cooperstown is Sunday, July 27.
Successful transactions with: thedutymon, tsalems1, davidpuddy, probstein123, lodibrewfan, gododgersfan, dialj, jwgators, copperjj, larryp, hookem, boopotts, crimsontider, rogermnj, swartz1, Counselor
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
0
Comments
edit: guess not, 12 named on there. I think that's the max. Oh well.
Torre should be in. I"m a bit conflicted over LaRussa based on him turning such a blind eye towards rampant steroid use on his teams.
Pass on the rest- surprised some are even on the ballot.
1 Marvin Miller
Eventually but not this time
2 Joe Torre
Hall of Very Good
3 La Russa (lets see what he knew and when he knew it, but definitely a great manager who will probably get in)
4 Dave Parker (there are worse in the hall, but I hate that argument. If he was clean he will look better in comparison to the current era)
No chance
Conception
Garvey
Billy Martin
Dan Quisenberry (at least until closers are looked upon a bit differently)
Ted Simmons
why even on the ballot?
Steinbrenner (Felony conviction)
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
1. Joe Torre
2. Tony La Russa
3. Bobby Cox
4. Ted Simmons
5. George Steinbrenner
6. Dave Parker
7. Dave Concepcion
8. Steve Garvey
9. Billy Martin
10. Tommy John
11. Dan Quisenberry
12. Marvin Miller
Top 3 should all be in at some point. Solid arguments can be made for Simmons and Parker. But I agree with the above, none of the players get in on this one.
1. Marvin Miller
(HUUUUUUUUUUUGE dropoff)
2. Joe Torre
3. Ted Simmons
4. Tony La Russa
5. Bobby Cox
6. Dave Parker
7. George Steinbrenner
8. Steve Garvey
9. Billy Martin
10. Tommy John
11. Dan Quisenberry
12. Dave Concepcion
Top 4 on my list get in. Wouldn't complain if #5 & #6 get in. But Marvin Miller is, IMHO, the #1 guy not in the HOF already that belongs in, other than Barry Bonds. And that includes being ahead of Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose.
Miller - yes, no explanation necessary
Torre - yes, based on his playing career as well as mgr
Parker - yes, def. the best all-around player on the list
Whether it's the Gold Gloves or 2nd most HRs in 50's, the fact that he played for NY teams, gave a few years serving his time like many of his peers, member of the expansion Mets, or manager of the Miracle Mets, he's got these footnotes that to me (albeit biased) would make up for the lower average, or the fact that he never won an MVP (Campy won 4 and Newcombe won 1, tough competition within his own team, let alone the likes of Banks and Aaron), and he played with another handful of HOFers with whom he belongs enshrined as well.
I'm sure I'm overly dramatic and I know he's not the only one to be snubbed, but this list makes me throw up a little in my mouth.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>I don't understand why Garvey is so low on many lists? >>
Because he wasn't even the best hitter on his team most of those years he got 200+ hits.
Crappy OBP and not as good a hitter as Reggie Smith. I love Garvey but he's not a HOF.
I'd say Miller because of his profound impact on the game and Torre get in. Torre goes in before Larussa and Cox because of what he did on the field as well as his time managing the Yanks.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>My list would look something like this:
1. Marvin Miller
(HUUUUUUUUUUUGE dropoff)
2. Joe Torre
3. Ted Simmons
4. Tony La Russa
5. Bobby Cox
6. Dave Parker
7. George Steinbrenner
8. Steve Garvey
9. Billy Martin
10. Tommy John
11. Dan Quisenberry
12. Dave Concepcion
Top 4 on my list get in. Wouldn't complain if #5 & #6 get in. But Marvin Miller is, IMHO, the #1 guy not in the HOF already that belongs in, other than Barry Bonds. And that includes being ahead of Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. >>
I think Cox will get in before LaRussa because of Cox' streak of 14 straight division titles. That record will never occur in baseball again.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i> he never won an MVP (Campy won 4 and Newcombe won 1, tough competition within his own team, let alone the likes of Banks and Aaron). >>
Campy won 3, just like Berra, but your point is made.
I'd like to see Hodges in for everything he did. Same with Lefty O'Doul, and to a certain extent Torre. I don't think Eck gets in for just his relief work, but when you add his wins as a starter he's in. The opposite with Smoltz, with the same result.
I tried looking up how much some players improved each year on the ballot but couldn't find it. I know Nellie Fox and Robin Roberts started off really low and slowly rose up the ranks until they got in. Blyleven is another one that was low the first year and despite his record not improving one iota kept rising up the ranks until he finally got it. I can understand if someone doesn't make it their first year in order to save that honor for the elite, but after 5 years pull them off- and no second chance in a crony committee, the likes of which enshrined those immortals like George Highpockets Kelley, Ross Youngs, and Bobby Doerr.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
A nice MLB.COM article here on Parker. Sad to hear he has parkinson's disease.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130809&content_id=56420344&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Ted Simmons Dan Quisenberry, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey and Dave Parker have no business being mentioned in the same breath as Hall of Fame .
<< <i>Joe Torre , Tony LaRussa , Bobby Cox , and George Steinbrenner will all be Hall of Famers . Tommy John and Marvin Miller should be as well . The others no way.
Ted Simmons Dan Quisenberry, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey and Dave Parker have no business being mentioned in the same breath as Hall of Fame . >>
Disagree. Cox was a joke. The pitching staff he had all those years and only one championship?
<< <i>If you use the excuse that Parker was great for a few years, Mattingly, Nomar and Dale Murphy should be in. >>
Parker had great years with 4 different teams. At age 38 he helped lead Oakland to a title in 89.
1. Steve Garvey - MVP, career average near 300, Gold Gloves, put him in
2. Tony La Russa - deserving, but he just retired. what if he comes back next year?
3. Joe Torre - was he just a product of a high payroll team?
4. Bobby Cox - only one WS championship with so much talent
5. Dave Concepcion - average player, but a cog in the Big Red Machine
6. Dave Parker - numbers similar to Garvey, but will his cocaine use hurt him?
7. Tommy John - average player, but near 300 wins
8. Billy Martin - will one WS be enough?
9. George Steinbrenner - a train wreck, but he won
10. Ted Simmons - he was on the ballot one year, and got 3.7%
11. Dan Quisenberry - a good relief pitcher, but not enough
12. Marvin Miller - he changed the game, but for the better? will fehr be next?
I'd probably just vote Garvey in, and wait on the rest.
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
Took 2 other bad teams and turned them into winners before joining Yankees. 1995 Yankees also had the highest payroll in baseball and did not win. Torre is hired for 96 season and they win the WS.
If we're going to include postseason numbers in the evaluation, Garvey gets a bump there with a craeer OPS of .910 and SLG% of .550 while Parker's was a rather mediocre .647 and .360 respectively. Garvey had 11 postseason HRs and 31 RBIs in 55 games; Parker 3 HRs and 11 RBIs in 30 games.
I'd say both players are in the Hall of Very Good, imo..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>3. Joe Torre - was he just a product of a high payroll team?
Took 2 other bad teams and turned them into winners before joining Yankees. 1995 Yankees also had the highest payroll in baseball and did not win. Torre is hired for 96 season and they win the WS. >>
I thought there was some kind of quote from Steinbrenner to Torre one time where George said something along the lines that Torre never won before he got to the Yankees. This article (Link) also said that Torre was somewhat considered a failure at managing before he got to the Yankees, and "in each of his three previous stops, with the Mets, Atlanta and St. Louis, his team had a losing record in his final season at the helm." Regarding the 96 season, I thought that was the Buck Showalter rule, where one year after the team fires him, the team wins the WS the next year.
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
<< <i>Interesting debate regarding Garvey and Parker. I'd say they are both fairly similar on the all-time list. Garvey had a career OBP% of .329 while Parker's was .339. Garvey's OPS+ is 117 while Parker's is 121. Garvey won 4 Gold Gloves while Parker won 3. Both won 1 MVP award. Parker finished in top 5 5 times overall while Garvey just twice, though Garvey also finished sixth 3 other times. Parker's career WAR is 40.0 while Garvey's is 37.6.
If we're going to include postseason numbers in the evaluation, Garvey gets a bump there with a craeer OPS of .910 and SLG% of .550 while Parker's was a rather mediocre .647 and .360 respectively. Garvey had 11 postseason HRs and 31 RBIs in 55 games; Parker 3 HRs and 11 RBIs in 30 games.
I'd say both players are in the Hall of Very Good, imo.. >>
I think what really separates these two players is extra base hits. Parker ranks #53 all time, while Garvey is at #144.
Parker also ranks #37 all time in doubles, and #51 all-time in RBI.
<< <i>I don't understand why Garvey is so low on many lists? >>
Easy. If you're a HOF 1B, you either gotta hit for a really high average (Rod Carew) or you gotta hit for a lot of power (lots of guys). Garvey did neither. Career .294 hitter with 272 HRs, topping 30 HRs only once. Heck, you can look at his entire career and there's not really a GREAT offensive season in there anywhere. He won an MVP with .312/21/111. That's a nice season and all but great? Not hardly. Not even by 1970s standards.
Somebody else mentioned Ted Simmons vs Thurman Munson. First of all, Simmons was a LOT better offensively than Munson. Their career OPS+ are nearly the same (118 vs 116) but only because Simmons played a lot longer, with his last 5 years bringing his overall numbers down. He played 21 seasons and was an all-star hitting .308 and driving in 108 in his 16th season. Munson played only 11 years (not his fault, true, but he'd never have made it to 21, probably not even to 15) and his offensive game had already disappeared by year 11 when he hit .288 with no power. Simmons was an average catcher defensively. Not great but not the "no field" guy he's been labeled as. Simmons had 6 seasons of 20+ HRs, Munson had 1 (exactly 20). Simmons had 5 seasons of 130 or higher OPS+. Munson had 1. Simmons hit a HR every 39 PAs. Munson hit one every 52. And so on.
Someone else mentioned Joe Torre as the best catcher (other than Piazza) not in the HOF. I suppose you can make that argument but, really, he played 41% of his games at catcher. Doesn't really count.
<< <i>3. Joe Torre - was he just a product of a high payroll team? >>
He finished his career with a higher batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage than Garvey, while playing almost half his games as a catcher
During his eight All-Star years, his total salary was less than $1 million, Garvey earned more than that every year during his final five-year contract. Pretty ridiculous to say the difference in their success comes from Torre being on a high payroll team, while Garvey wasn't
<< <i>
<< <i>3. Joe Torre - was he just a product of a high payroll team? >>
He finished his career with a higher batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage than Garvey, while playing almost half his games as a catcher
During his eight All-Star years, his total salary was less than $1 million, Garvey earned more than that every year during his final five-year contract. Pretty ridiculous to say the difference in their success comes from Torre being on a high payroll team, while Garvey wasn't >>
I think he's reeferring to Torre as manger of the Yankees, not Torre as the player.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Someone else mentioned Joe Torre as the best catcher (other than Piazza) not in the HOF. I suppose you can make that argument but, really, he played 41% of his games at catcher. Doesn't really count. >>
Torre played a plurality of games at catcher. He had a better career than Simmons (though only very slightly and isn't too much of a struggle to accept Simmons as the better player)
Comparing OPS+ to Munson, during Simmons' best 11 seasons he played in 1628 games and had an OPS+ of 130 (during Torre's best 11 seasons, it was 137, but only counting years his 10 years as a catcher it was 130)
But both Torre and Simmons were poor defensively. Bill Freehan was a very good hitter and the best defensive catcher of his generation. Also a reasonable choice
Of course, the things Torre did after he stopped playing far exceeds every other borderline candidate at any position
<< <i>
I think he's reeferring to Torre as manger of the Yankees, not Torre as the player. >>
And I am referring to how silly it is to ignore what he did as a player when it comes to the Hall-of-Fame
How many first basemen – or players at other positions for that matter – accomplished anything equivalent to the following by the end of Hodges’ playing era:
· All-time career right-handed home run hitter in their league
· All-time career Grand Slam hitter in their league
· Had 100 or more RBI for seven consecutive years
· Had 30 or more HR six times, five consecutively
· Won three Gold Gloves (first three awarded; they started giving them in 1957, toward end of his career)
· Seven World Series appearances
Hodges was a dominating first baseman in his era – both offensively and defensively – and one of the best in baseball history. This is a compelling case for election into the Hall of Fame.
<< <i>I'd rank like this, w/ comments:
1. Steve Garvey - MVP, career average near 300, Gold Gloves, put him in
2. Tony La Russa - deserving, but he just retired. what if he comes back next year?
3. Joe Torre - was he just a product of a high payroll team?
4. Bobby Cox - only one WS championship with so much talent
5. Dave Concepcion - average player, but a cog in the Big Red Machine
6. Dave Parker - numbers similar to Garvey, but will his cocaine use hurt him?
7. Tommy John - average player, but near 300 wins
8. Billy Martin - will one WS be enough?
9. George Steinbrenner - a train wreck, but he won
10. Ted Simmons - he was on the ballot one year, and got 3.7%
11. Dan Quisenberry - a good relief pitcher, but not enough
12. Marvin Miller - he changed the game, but for the better? will fehr be next?
I'd probably just vote Garvey in, and wait on the rest. >>
Well, at least I'm not the only one with Miller in dead last
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd rank like this, w/ comments:
1. Steve Garvey - MVP, career average near 300, Gold Gloves, put him in
2. Tony La Russa - deserving, but he just retired. what if he comes back next year?
3. Joe Torre - was he just a product of a high payroll team?
4. Bobby Cox - only one WS championship with so much talent
5. Dave Concepcion - average player, but a cog in the Big Red Machine
6. Dave Parker - numbers similar to Garvey, but will his cocaine use hurt him?
7. Tommy John - average player, but near 300 wins
8. Billy Martin - will one WS be enough?
9. George Steinbrenner - a train wreck, but he won
10. Ted Simmons - he was on the ballot one year, and got 3.7%
11. Dan Quisenberry - a good relief pitcher, but not enough
12. Marvin Miller - he changed the game, but for the better? will fehr be next?
I'd probably just vote Garvey in, and wait on the rest. >>
Well, at least I'm not the only one with Miller in dead last
You can add me to the list lol.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd rank like this, w/ comments:
1. Steve Garvey - MVP, career average near 300, Gold Gloves, put him in
2. Tony La Russa - deserving, but he just retired. what if he comes back next year?
3. Joe Torre - was he just a product of a high payroll team?
4. Bobby Cox - only one WS championship with so much talent
5. Dave Concepcion - average player, but a cog in the Big Red Machine
6. Dave Parker - numbers similar to Garvey, but will his cocaine use hurt him?
7. Tommy John - average player, but near 300 wins
8. Billy Martin - will one WS be enough?
9. George Steinbrenner - a train wreck, but he won
10. Ted Simmons - he was on the ballot one year, and got 3.7%
11. Dan Quisenberry - a good relief pitcher, but not enough
12. Marvin Miller - he changed the game, but for the better? will fehr be next?
I'd probably just vote Garvey in, and wait on the rest. >>
Well, at least I'm not the only one with Miller in dead last
You can add me to the list lol. >>
Done LOL. Maybe he gets in, maybe he doesn't. I have my own system where Miller is concerned. He was never a player, owner, ump, manager or team executive with huge credentials. Nor was he a builder, like some of the executives who were elected. I do not have a vote, if I did and was forced to choose between Curt Flood and Marvin Miller, Flood would get my vote as the pioneer who challenged the reserve clause at the risk of his own career. A challenge which eventually led to all the mega dollar contracts we see now. And Flood actually played the game. Miller played the law game. Induct him in the attorney HOF. That's just my opinion on Miller, not everyone agrees, and I'm fine with that.
Players
It will be tough for any player to get in. Concepcion came closest last time, but he had help from multiple former teammates on the voting committee. That won't be the case this year. Although he didn't come close last time, I think Ted Simmons is most deserving (and truly only deserving) among the players, but I don't think he'll get in. I think Tommy John will come closest but fall short.
Managers
I can't see both Cox and LaRussa not making it. That leaves Torre out in the cold.
Execs
Miller and Steinbrenner are both strong candidates. I give Miller the edge, but I still put his chances at 50% or so.
My Guess
Cox, LaRussa and Miller. Torre, Steinbrenner and T. John are the only other people I think have a chance this year.
<< <i> believe that Gil Hodges truly deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. >>
Hodges isn't eligible in this vote. I think his era comes up again next year.
<< <i>What's the reasoning behind supporting Steve Garvey's candidacy? Before you answer, please take a look at Garvey's stats over on baseballreference.com. I've made the case against him, let's hear the case for him. >>
Here are Garvey's stats vs 3 others who played in the 70s and are in the Hall of Fame:
Steve Garvey: .294 BA / 1143 Runs / 2599 Hits / 1308 RBI / 272 HR / .446 SLG / 5X Top 6 MVP Voting
Player A: .267 BA / 1091 Runs / 2048 Hits / 1376 RBI / 389 HR / .476 SLG / 4X Top 6 MVP Voting
Player B: .271 BA / 1650 Runs / 2517 Hits / 1133 RBI / 268 HR / .427 SLG / 4X Top 6 MVP Voting
Player C: .279 BA / 1272 Runs / 2732 Hits / 1652 RBI / 279 HR / .463 SLG / 1X Top 6 MVP Voting
Steve Garvey: 4 Gold Gloves
Ranking of HOF 1st Basemen w/ Most Gold Gloves
-------------------------------------------------------
(1) Eddie Murray: 3 Gold Gloves
(2) Everyone else: 0 Gold Gloves
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
C is Tony Perez and is a legit comparison and Perez's resume is better. 100+ more homers. 7 100-RBI seasons vs 5. OPS+ of 122 vs 117. 300 more RBI. 130 more hits. Higher slugging percentage. So Perez, who was a borderline candidate to many guys, is a better candidate than Garvey.
A is Johnny Bench. This one is laughable. First of all, Bench is widely considered one of the two or three best ever at his position. Garvey isn't even remotely close to the discussion of best ever at his position. Secondly, catchers are judged offensively by a slightly different standard and Bench's power trumps Garvey's anyway. And Bench was better defensively than Garvey.
B is Joe Morgan. What you're saying is Garvey essentially has the same offensive numbers as a second baseman. Is that supposed to be a positive? IMHO, it's a big strike against Garvey. First basemen are supposed to provide a lot more offense than second basemen, plain and simple.
Somebody else mentioned Lance Parrish. As a Tigers fan, it kills me that Parrish's back gave out on him in 1986. He was well on his way to the HOF when he got hurt. Heck, he might be the most underrated player in the entire decade of the 80s. He was an outstanding defensive catcher who also put up monster offensive numbers. And then he got hurt and was never the same. And heck, even with that, he'd be a pretty good candidate right now.
So, yeah, still not convinced on Garvey
<< <i>Well, first of all, you're comparing Garvey to: A) a catcher;
C is Tony Perez and is a legit comparison and Perez's resume is better. 100+ more homers. 7 100-RBI seasons vs 5. OPS+ of 122 vs 117. 300 more RBI. 130 more hits. Higher slugging percentage. So Perez, who was a borderline candidate to many guys, is a better candidate than Garvey.
A is Johnny Bench. This one is laughable. First of all, Bench is widely considered one of the two or three best ever at his position. Garvey isn't even remotely close to the discussion of best ever at his position. Secondly, catchers are judged offensively by a slightly different standard and Bench's power trumps Garvey's anyway. And Bench was better defensively than Garvey.
B is Joe Morgan. What you're saying is Garvey essentially has the same offensive numbers as a second baseman. Is that supposed to be a positive? IMHO, it's a big strike against Garvey. First basemen are supposed to provide a lot more offense than second basemen, plain and simple.
Somebody else mentioned Lance Parrish. As a Tigers fan, it kills me that Parrish's back gave out on him in 1986. He was well on his way to the HOF when he got hurt. Heck, he might be the most underrated player in the entire decade of the 80s. He was an outstanding defensive catcher who also put up monster offensive numbers. And then he got hurt and was never the same. And heck, even with that, he'd be a pretty good candidate right now.
So, yeah, still not convinced on Garvey
He was having a monster '86 power season when he hurt the back also. Free agency followed, to the Phillies and I think Lance had one really good year after that with the Angels but I agree, never the same after 1986. Had he not gotten hurt, had he been able to let's say decline in a more graceful way, then Lance resembles a Gary Carter HOF argument. Some folks make that argument anyway, I can't myself, I see Carter as being a tier above Lance. But he was close to a HOF career.
<< <i>None of these players are worthy of hall of fame admission. You know a hall of fame player when you see one, and these guys belong in the Hall of Very Good. >>
I'd love to see someone attempt to explain why Ted Simmons should not be in the HOF.