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PAN show report (it's a long one) Now with 87redcivic's report inside!
kranky
Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
Helped at PTVETTERs table at the Pennsylvania Association of Numismatists’ twice-yearly show that ran Thursday-Saturday. Attendance is typically a bit lighter in the fall compared to the spring show, but this time attendance was surprisingly 17% higher, and there were at least 16 dealers who took tables for the first time at PAN. I believe the club is working hard to publicize the show and it’s paying off. However, the slow economy was reflected in the number of tirekickers and people looking for less expensive items.
Board members I got to chat with included RichieURich, papabear, vam44, ram1946, shortgapbob, mar327, CoinZip, and jfoot13.
Q: How do you know it’s election season?
A: The local mayor came to the show for a ribbon-cutting photo op when the show opened.
Did not see much gold in the cases although I’m sure it was available. Saw great copper at both Tom Reynolds and Angel Dee’s tables. Lots and lots of mid-level collector coins. Rich Uhrich had some wonderful seated items, many with killer toning. The Elusive Spondulix (my favorite coin dealer company name) had some very impressive US-minted Philippines coins. A good number of foreign and ancient dealers also. One dealer had new $100 bill star notes for sale. That didn’t take long!
PAN likes exhibits and there were some very impressive ones. The first-place winner was “Engraved Coins as Judeo-Christian or Neo-Pagan Amulets” – seven cases worth! Other exhibits included The Pennsylvania State Memorial Medal, Mementos of the GAR 28th National Encampment 1894, Western Pennsylvania National Bank Notes, A Coin from the Pirate Ship Whydah, Morse Code on Money, Euro Coin Designs, Selected Personifications on Roman Silver Coins, Silver Cobs of the Major Spanish-American Mints, and The Historically Significant Two-Cent Piece. And there was one very cool YN exhibit “My First Coin Collection.” A couple of the exhibits were winners at the recent ANA, so quality abounded.
Had a long conversation with a prominent dealer about how plus-graded coins are valued, and the conclusion was there is no clear answer, especially if there is a huge spread between grades. So if a 64 is worth 4,000 and a 65 is worth 80,000, then what’s a 64+ worth? 12K? 20K? 40K? The consensus was closer to 20K. So you have a plus coin for one fourth of the value of a coin that’s less than a half-point better… what are the chances it might upgrade? It’s extremely close already.
Allan (CoinZip) had some very cool compact microscope/camera devices that attach to a PC or Mac via USB. They had a built-in light and you could simply hold it against the slab (or even against the case glass) and it would auto-focus and display a magnified image on the screen. You could ID even the most minute of varieties with those. (Well, you can’t pick out no-line fatties with it). The photos were great. It was the first time I got to meet him – very nice guy.
Saw once again that new collectors tend to overweight surface marks when evaluating coins, while underweighting luster. This was evident from some of the purchases I got to see and how the new owners described them. Marks are important but are not the only factor in grading coins. So I recommend new collectors understand the whole picture regarding grading, and also spend time learning what an original coin should look like. One showgoer shared a look at a purchase of an unc copper coin but clearly it had been messed with. Guess it was lucky it cost him less than $10. If it was the coin he thought he had, it would have been north of $70 easily. But the lure of the bargain won out. The surprise will come some day when he wants to sell it.
Heard a customer ask a dealer what the most expensive Lincoln cent was and what it would cost - a thousand, five thousand, ten thousand? The customer added he was willing to pay. As the dealer began to explain about absolute rarity and grade rarity, and what coins that excelled on both fronts could be worth, I got the impression the customer was taken completely off-guard by the whole grading rarity concept not to mention the values. I don't think the conversation even got to the 1943-D copper cent that sold for $1.7 million. But I give the dealer credit for patiently trying to educate the customer. Many dealers would have quickly brushed off the customer due to his naiveté.
Did see some showgoers looking to sell messed-with coins in fancy packaging (not graded) bought on TV, and one with a “vault box” of 20 BU 2005 Jefferson Bison nickel rolls (the rolls had only 25 coins each). The box was impressive, the roll wrappers were impressive, and I’m certain they price he paid was impressive. I remember seeing them advertised in the newspaper back then. I’m sure they were sold for many multiples of face. Ouch. I feel badly for those people when they try to sell their TV purchases.
One of the things PAN does well is to put a lot of effort into is YNs. There's a program on Saturday where they can fill Lincoln folders from tables covered with donated wheat cents, and they get $10 in money to use in a YN auction (the auction items are donated also). And jfoot13 was kind enough to once again give $10 coupons to the YNs good towards items in his bulk bins.
The featured speaker at the educational seminars was John Mercanti, former chief engraver at the US Mint. He also brought a few display items, including a signed photo of George W. Bush that commended Mercanti on the great job he did on the inaugural medal he designed for Bush.
One of the negatives was that there was a gun show on the other side of the convention center we were in. Between the dealers at both shows (and the fact that many of the gun show dealers also had trailers on their vehicles), before either show opened nearly half the parking spaces were already filled. The venue does run a shuttle bus to a nearby shopping center parking lot but I have always suspected some people coming to the coin show do not spend the time to track down the overflow parking area and simply go home after not seeing any parking at the show site. Coin show entry was free, but gun show entry was $9. They brokered a deal with the gun show so PAN dealers could attend for free.
Tom, who was also helping at PTVETTER’s table, completed his modern commem dollar set by finding the 1996 Olympic High Jump dollar. A tip o’ the kranky hat to Tom for his determination on completing that large (and heavy!) set.
My only pickup was an 1853 token from jfoot13 featuring “H.B. West’s Famous Trained Dogs” (mine is NOT unc, like the one in this photo). I bought it because my wife has a cousin named "H.B. West" and I'll give it to him.
Also picked up the book on Matte Proof Lincolns written by FunwithMPL, and Roger Burdette’s US Pattern and Experimental Pieces of WW 2 book. No actual coin purchases, but a great time being immersed in coins for three days.
Board members I got to chat with included RichieURich, papabear, vam44, ram1946, shortgapbob, mar327, CoinZip, and jfoot13.
Q: How do you know it’s election season?
A: The local mayor came to the show for a ribbon-cutting photo op when the show opened.
Did not see much gold in the cases although I’m sure it was available. Saw great copper at both Tom Reynolds and Angel Dee’s tables. Lots and lots of mid-level collector coins. Rich Uhrich had some wonderful seated items, many with killer toning. The Elusive Spondulix (my favorite coin dealer company name) had some very impressive US-minted Philippines coins. A good number of foreign and ancient dealers also. One dealer had new $100 bill star notes for sale. That didn’t take long!
PAN likes exhibits and there were some very impressive ones. The first-place winner was “Engraved Coins as Judeo-Christian or Neo-Pagan Amulets” – seven cases worth! Other exhibits included The Pennsylvania State Memorial Medal, Mementos of the GAR 28th National Encampment 1894, Western Pennsylvania National Bank Notes, A Coin from the Pirate Ship Whydah, Morse Code on Money, Euro Coin Designs, Selected Personifications on Roman Silver Coins, Silver Cobs of the Major Spanish-American Mints, and The Historically Significant Two-Cent Piece. And there was one very cool YN exhibit “My First Coin Collection.” A couple of the exhibits were winners at the recent ANA, so quality abounded.
Had a long conversation with a prominent dealer about how plus-graded coins are valued, and the conclusion was there is no clear answer, especially if there is a huge spread between grades. So if a 64 is worth 4,000 and a 65 is worth 80,000, then what’s a 64+ worth? 12K? 20K? 40K? The consensus was closer to 20K. So you have a plus coin for one fourth of the value of a coin that’s less than a half-point better… what are the chances it might upgrade? It’s extremely close already.
Allan (CoinZip) had some very cool compact microscope/camera devices that attach to a PC or Mac via USB. They had a built-in light and you could simply hold it against the slab (or even against the case glass) and it would auto-focus and display a magnified image on the screen. You could ID even the most minute of varieties with those. (Well, you can’t pick out no-line fatties with it). The photos were great. It was the first time I got to meet him – very nice guy.
Saw once again that new collectors tend to overweight surface marks when evaluating coins, while underweighting luster. This was evident from some of the purchases I got to see and how the new owners described them. Marks are important but are not the only factor in grading coins. So I recommend new collectors understand the whole picture regarding grading, and also spend time learning what an original coin should look like. One showgoer shared a look at a purchase of an unc copper coin but clearly it had been messed with. Guess it was lucky it cost him less than $10. If it was the coin he thought he had, it would have been north of $70 easily. But the lure of the bargain won out. The surprise will come some day when he wants to sell it.
Heard a customer ask a dealer what the most expensive Lincoln cent was and what it would cost - a thousand, five thousand, ten thousand? The customer added he was willing to pay. As the dealer began to explain about absolute rarity and grade rarity, and what coins that excelled on both fronts could be worth, I got the impression the customer was taken completely off-guard by the whole grading rarity concept not to mention the values. I don't think the conversation even got to the 1943-D copper cent that sold for $1.7 million. But I give the dealer credit for patiently trying to educate the customer. Many dealers would have quickly brushed off the customer due to his naiveté.
Did see some showgoers looking to sell messed-with coins in fancy packaging (not graded) bought on TV, and one with a “vault box” of 20 BU 2005 Jefferson Bison nickel rolls (the rolls had only 25 coins each). The box was impressive, the roll wrappers were impressive, and I’m certain they price he paid was impressive. I remember seeing them advertised in the newspaper back then. I’m sure they were sold for many multiples of face. Ouch. I feel badly for those people when they try to sell their TV purchases.
One of the things PAN does well is to put a lot of effort into is YNs. There's a program on Saturday where they can fill Lincoln folders from tables covered with donated wheat cents, and they get $10 in money to use in a YN auction (the auction items are donated also). And jfoot13 was kind enough to once again give $10 coupons to the YNs good towards items in his bulk bins.
The featured speaker at the educational seminars was John Mercanti, former chief engraver at the US Mint. He also brought a few display items, including a signed photo of George W. Bush that commended Mercanti on the great job he did on the inaugural medal he designed for Bush.
One of the negatives was that there was a gun show on the other side of the convention center we were in. Between the dealers at both shows (and the fact that many of the gun show dealers also had trailers on their vehicles), before either show opened nearly half the parking spaces were already filled. The venue does run a shuttle bus to a nearby shopping center parking lot but I have always suspected some people coming to the coin show do not spend the time to track down the overflow parking area and simply go home after not seeing any parking at the show site. Coin show entry was free, but gun show entry was $9. They brokered a deal with the gun show so PAN dealers could attend for free.
Tom, who was also helping at PTVETTER’s table, completed his modern commem dollar set by finding the 1996 Olympic High Jump dollar. A tip o’ the kranky hat to Tom for his determination on completing that large (and heavy!) set.
My only pickup was an 1853 token from jfoot13 featuring “H.B. West’s Famous Trained Dogs” (mine is NOT unc, like the one in this photo). I bought it because my wife has a cousin named "H.B. West" and I'll give it to him.
Also picked up the book on Matte Proof Lincolns written by FunwithMPL, and Roger Burdette’s US Pattern and Experimental Pieces of WW 2 book. No actual coin purchases, but a great time being immersed in coins for three days.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
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Comments
Thanks, Kranky.
Sounds like you are back home in time for the Steelers game.
I'd feel safer in the parking lot if a gun show is happening at the same time. Keeps the crooks guessing.
Nice report!!...Great reading
Hope you enjoy the book.
Great report!
I was thinking about attending this year, but then life got in the way. Oh well maybe in the spring...
njcc
Friday was the second time I’ve ever taken a day off of work for a coin show. I felt like I was indulging in such a decadent luxury. Normally I go to the PAN shows on Saturday, but I was taking my daughter is trick-or-treating that day. The trick-or-treating run is an annual ritual with the neighbor girl and her dad. So it was either take the day off on Friday or not go to the coin show at all. My wife gave me a generous $200 (I was only asking for $150). I had printed out my want list, and was ready to roll.
I’ve been going to the PAN show for many years, and I’ve been collecting for ten. My want list consists of three parts: A list of Canadian 10-cent coins which I’ve worn down to a nub with a list of dates that wouldn’t come cheap and wouldn’t be coming home with me the money I have in my pocket. There are two modern proof Cand. dimes that I had on the list, so I could still cross off, so I was on the lookout for those.
The second part is a list of early commemorative halves that I didn’t have. There are about 30 on the list. If you sort out all commemorative halves in MS-63 by price and pick the top thirty… that is essentially my list. I have a Dansco Half Dollars blank album with all of the modern halves, Franklin type, etc, and the few classics I’ve bought thus far. At this point, I’m trying to get one per year.
The third part is my newest addition, silver English threepence coins. It replaced my active collecting of Canadian. I was at a point a few years ago where I was seeing the same stuff on Ebay, and I got to the point where if I didn’t switch gears to something else, I was going to completely lose interest. I’m trying to put together a date run from 1834-1944 and a type set going back to Elizabeth I. So, in the car I was debating whether to buy the best half dollar I can get in one of the cases, or go through the stacks of foreign in one of the binders. I decide to go through the binders first, take note of anything I’d kick myself later if I didn’t buy, and then go get a half dollar if I came up skunked.
When I first walked onto the bourse, the first thing I saw was a nice Canadian Mirror Specimen set 1937 1¢ to 50¢ with original case for $799. I was only interested in the dime, and I was interested in not spending my money in the first five minutes of the show, so I didn’t ask the dealer the price for the dime and/or if he’d be willing to break the set. I never did get back to that table with my cash still in my pocket. I have the matte proof, and the mirror proof dime would have made a great companion.
I went looking through a few different tables until I found ‘J Foot13 Coins and More’ in the back room. Although it wasn’t a hole in my album, I found an absolutely gorgeous 1906 threepence with great surfaces. I had brought a few duplicate Canadian Dimes with me and I was able to trade the dealer a dime for that threepence. He was very friendly easygoing and great to work with. I left the table with my options intact albeit nothing on my want list crossed off.
I went to the presentation from Mr. Simcha Kuritzky on “The Temple Tax.” I really liked the part of the presentation dealing with period pieces used for the temple tax. The second part of the presentation was on half-scheckel receipts used within the past century. I’m not a paper money or paper document guy, so that part wasn’t as interesting to me, but I did learn new some things in an area I knew nothing about. I was very impressed with the breadth and depth of knowledge the presenter had on the subject.
After that it was back to the bourse. I was looking at a really nice XF Vermont with a circulated cameo at ‘Bill and Walt’s Hobby Shop’ table. If I was going to get a half dollar, that is the one I would have come home with. I was a great coin at a price I could afford that is a type that is normally outside my level with good eye appeal.
I ended up picking up a nice 1943 threepence from ‘J Reeves & Co.’ in one of his binders. I still had enough for the Vermont, but I knew if I bought anything else, I was out of luck. I ended up picking an 1878 threepence from a binder further down the bourse table.
When I was looking through the stacks of one table, a man walked up to the left of me and asked the dealer, “Do you have a 1974-D Nickel?” “I’ve been combing this entire floor for a 1974-D Nickel, and believe it or not, nobody has the date available.” The dealer combed through his vast array of stock until he found the elusive object. After showing to the guy, a nominal amount of money was exchanged and the man, with a satisfied look on his face, said “Thanks, that completes my book.” I completely understood where the guy was coming from. I know the common wisdom is to buy one “great” coin instead of multiple good coins, but I had so much fun, I think the difference was worth it. While I was at that table, I found one proof Canadian dime I needed. When I was going through the 2X2 box of threepences, I saw a 1914 threepence that absolutely glowed. I had the date, but I’ve learned from experience that if you find something that “pops” in a pile of common dates –even if it has a higher price on it- you jump on it.
My last coin of the show was a nice 1762 threepence from ‘David R. Gotkin World Coins’. It is a common date in the early milled era, and I had been looking at various examples online for a while. He had a no-problem one that really had a lot of meat on its bones, at a very fair price. It is now the oldest coin in my collection.
Before I left, I decided to renew my membership to PAN. While I was at the table, the lady manning it asked if I had visited John Mercanti for an autograph. She said, “He’s really nice and will sign anything you have.” So, I took a show schedule to his booth and he gladly signed it. He was as nice as advertised.
When I come back to the PAN show next spring, I’ll be bringing my daughter with me. At the PAN spring show 2013, I had taken her to fill out a free penny book and take part in the live auction for YNs. She had a blast last time around, and I had fun watching her have fun (I used all my money on a nice Oregon Trail half during that trip). Halloween candy and a chance to hang out with her best friend won out this past Saturday, but she seemed very disappointed that she had to choose only one thing when I brought up the time conflict a few weeks ago. Last spring she bid on and won a lot of “movie money” from the YN auction and she bought a gold colored coin on the bourse for $2 which she still has displayed on her desk in her room. She still has two PAN bucks to use for the auction next time around. I know in the coming spring show I won’t be able to dive deep into the 2x2 boxes and binders for hours with my daughter around, but the tradeoff is worth it.
I had a great time at PAN, it seemed busy from my perspective (behind the table). I did not have much time to look at other dealers inventory, working the table solo limits my buying opportunities.
My table was right beside jfoot13 and I had no idea he is a member here.....good grief.
I will be set up at the next PAN, March 21, 22, 23.
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
Thanks kranky &
I was recently a member of PAN for only a year or two. Let it lapse mostly due to laziness.
Will rejoin even though the I doubt I'll ever make the show as it is just too far away.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Saw once again that new collectors tend to overweight surface marks when evaluating coins, while underweighting luster. This was evident from some of the purchases I got to see and how the new owners described them. Marks are important but are not the only factor in grading coins. So I recommend new collectors understand the whole picture regarding grading, and also spend time learning what an original coin should look like.
This is so true!
Tom
njcoincrank, John Burns and I actually were talking about you at the show while he was judging exhibits. Hope you do make it back in the Spring. I figured you went to the Hawaii show.
FunwithMPL, I knew I would enjoy the book after getting a peek at it when it was still a three-ring binder.
87redcivic, welcome to the boards! Great first post and show report.
PTVETTER, I'm not sure kranky would make a good PAN president. You know how hard it would be for him to make it to the dinner!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Rob
Successful Trades with: Coincast, MICHAELDIXON
Successful Purchases from: Manorcourtman, Meltdown
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.