Ethics of Disclosure

Kudbegud

The ethics of selling coins returned ungraded because they missed the submitters minimum grade.

Am I delusional here or ????? I'd really like to hear from a dealer, like John of MCM, who has proven to be very customer oriented and fair.

I wonder how many coins of those rejected as below 70 or below 69 in the original bulk, or individual, submissions were subsequently sold as "Raw" or "Ungraded" or with no descriptor at all? Selling in this manner could be considered as deceptive and borderline fraud. A little harsh, I admit, and hard to impossible to prove. Depending entirely on the integrity of the seller. I don't think I have ever seen a descriptor of "Missed Minimum Grade on First submission". But knowing the coin didn't make the minimum grade and selling with out disclosing this fact seems a little shady. Selling false hope when they know it isn't a 69 or 70 coin. Sorta like posting a picture of the obverse of a coin on Ebay and not the picture of the reverse with the big scratch across it...and, not disclosing the scratch in the description.

Does ethics dictate that those coins returned from a TPG ungraded because they didn't meet the minimum grade requested be described as such? In court wouldn't this be considered lying by omission? In real estate or home sales you have to disclose known facts or face repercussions. Is selling a used car without disclosing that it has had collision damage and a bent frame constitute fraud or at least dishonesty? If this missed minimum grade fact was disclosed, which coin would you buy?

Graded and slabbed at the higher price but certified condition;

Pure Raw, as received from the Mint with out inspection of any kind, sold "As Is", or as sealed in original Mint shipping material, at a sum-what lower price but a higher grade possible if submitted for grading;

Disclosed as returned ungraded on first submission, known below 70 or 69, at the lowest price. It would probably not be resubmitted for grading by the buyer knowing it had no chance of getting 69 or 70.

RYK

My personal take is that I assume that every coin sold in the marketplace in an unsealed box has been examined and considered for grading by a specialty expert or actually submitted. Similarly, I assume that every graded coin (under 70) for sale has been considered or actually submitted for a higher grade. In many cases, this is not the case, but it saves me from worrying about it (if that makes any sense).

Rampage

This ought to be a fun thread.

ModCrewman

I think it's a valid topic for discussion.

panexpoguy

I think you buy the coin and not the holder. If buying face to face, you need to practive due diligence and inspect the coin in hand. If it meets your standards, then you should be satisfied. Buying over the net, buy from someone with a return policy and inspect the coin when you get it. Doesn't pass muster, return it with the understanding that if you didn't like the first one, you probably won't like the rest in stock so go elsewhere.

bigjpst

I personally think it would all depend on how the raw coin that did not meet the grade was sold/marketed. Say an ASE is submitted and doesn't meet the minimum grade 69. If the dealer sells with hype, say " Near Perfect!!" or "MS70 ?" and with a premium, I would say probably unethical. On the other hand if he sells the coin as bullion with the normal $2-$3 over spot mark up, I wouldn't expect them to have to disclose anything. JMO

BryceM

There is asbestos in a building at the time of sale - fact
A used car was in a flood and has a salvage title - fact
A coin is not genuine (counterfeit) - fact
A coin was assigned a grade - not factual - a subjective (expert) opinion, not independently quantifiable or even reproducable, based on constantly evolving standards on which there is no universal agreement.

If I buy a coin, have it regraded, and it goes up a point or two, I do not normally disclose this to the next potential buyer. I assume he will be knoweldgeable enough to form his own opinions about the validity of the assigned grade. Likewise, I don't ask my favorite dealers which of the coins in his case were recently successfully upgraded.

I assume that the majority of tempting, but raw coins have been cracked out of "problem" slabs. This may or may not be accurate, but it keeps me out of trouble.

TPG's have advanced the hobby tremendously, but you still better be able to grade if you're spending real money.

ColonelJessup

There's a very fine line between a high-end 69+ and a low-end 70.........

MidLifeCrisis

If a coin isn't in the holder you want, with the grade you want, don't buy it.

"...missed the submitters minimum grade"...that's funny. As the submitter, it's my opinion that every coin I submit is a 70. But I pay the TPG to give me their opinion. If I still don't agree with the TPG, I'm free to crack the coin out and sell it raw or send it to another TPG for another opinion. I can advertise it as a 70 if I want to because that's what I think it is.

As the buyer, you are also free to disagree with my opinion or that of the TPG. It's up to you to form your own opinion and act accordingly.

Ethics (at least in numismatics) are what people should do, not what they have to do.

Type2

If this was not the case why would they submit them at all. It's a way to max the profit out of ea and every coin so they will submit with a min grade of 69 and any with a lower will go back to the mint if they can send it back it time or sold off as raw. It's just the way it is. There is only one way to not rec reject's and that is to buy from the mint the day of release or buy 70's or 1st strike box's that have never been opened. After that it's every man for him salf out there. I dont think it's right but it is the special of the day and it is done every day and not just with coins......

droopyd

<< <i>My personal take is that I assume that every coin sold in the marketplace in an unsealed box has been examined and considered for grading by a specialty expert or actually submitted. Similarly, I assume that every graded coin (under 70) for sale has been considered or actually submitted for a higher grade. In many cases, this is not the case, but it saves me from worrying about it (if that makes any sense). >>



Yup.

Sonorandesertrat

"TPG's have advanced the hobby tremendously, but you still better be able to grade if you're spending real money."

This. If you cannot see what you are thinking about buying or bidding on, assume it's raw and fugly. Even if it is in
a TPG slab, I would not assume that the piece is all there for the grade. Hence, deal with reputable dealers, and don't
buy unless there is a return policy that you are OK with.

The phrase 'ethics of selling coins' (or any other collectible) is almost an oxymoron. Caveat emptor.

PTVETTER

my take on this subject is that a RAW coin is just that raw and the buyer can see the coin in hand.

Remember this a grade on a coin by a grader is just someones opinion about the grade.

The real question is how much are you willing the pay for the coin you can see in your hand?

ricko

Grading is subjective, not finite. Over and over, coins are resubmitted and often get higher grades on the second, third or even fourth attempt. Coins also get downgraded. Therefore, since grading is only an opinion (and if one does not realize this, than one is delusional), it is not withing ethical bounds to expect a report with a coin that says "This missed a 69/70 etc". Much as BryceM outlined in his post, a grade is not fact. Cheers, RickO

wondercoin

The most honest answer I recently heard to this question (from a mid-sized dealer with a strong internet presence) was the following:

"If I am selling to a dirt bag telemarketer, I disclose nothing about the history of the coins. They are all fresh. On the hand, if I am selling to a collector or an honest dealer, I provide the entire history of the coins."

That said, RYK has a great approach to the situation and one that I also adopt when buying coins from others, especially those I have not done business with before.

Wondercoin

lkeigwin

<< <i>There is asbestos in a building at the time of sale - fact
A used car was in a flood and has a salvage title - fact
A coin is not genuine (counterfeit) - fact
A coin was assigned a grade - not factual - a subjective (expert) opinion, not independently quantifiable or even reproducable, based on constantly evolving standards on which there is no universal agreement.

If I buy a coin, have it regraded, and it goes up a point or two, I do not normally disclose this to the next potential buyer. I assume he will be knoweldgeable enough to form his own opinions about the validity of the assigned grade. Likewise, I don't ask my favorite dealers which of the coins in his case were recently successfully upgraded.

I assume that the majority of tempting, but raw coins have been cracked out of "problem" slabs. This may or may not be accurate, but it keeps me out of trouble.

TPG's have advanced the hobby tremendously, but you still better be able to grade if you're spending real money. >>


Great answer.
Lance.

derryb

When looking for raw 70's, the only reliable source is the US Mint. And, even there your are taking your chances.

DaveG

Yes - I think you're delusional and greedy (and resentful of the professionals).

The premise of your post seems to be that you want to buy coins from dealers that you can then send to the TPGs and score high grades and you don't want dealers to sell you coins that have already been rejected for a high grade.

In other words, you want someone else to hand you a profit without you having to learn grading or put your capital at risk by buying a lot of coins or even incur the costs of making a lot of submission to the TPGs.


If you want a modern coin in a specific slab, then buy it in the slab and grade you want.

If you want to play the slabbed modern coin game, then learn to grade like a pro, put your own capital at risk and do your own work.


As to the substance of your post - all I care about is that a coin I'm considering buying is genuine, offered to me at a price I consider attractive and is a coin I'd like to own.

I don't really care how many times the coin has been to the TPGs or whether it has been to CAC.

Longacre

It's been a long day and Longacre's ability to concentrate this late in the day has diminished in his service to The Man.

Are you saying that a Raw MS69 for sale on a website should be disclosed as a "submitted to PCGS for a minimum MS69 and got rejected"? If that is the case, who is to say that a second submission would not recieve a 69 grade? I am not following the premise.

telephoto1

<< <i>Yes - I think you're delusional and greedy (and resentful of the professionals).

The premise of your post seems to be that you want to buy coins from dealers that you can then send to the TPGs and score high grades and you don't want dealers to sell you coins that have already been rejected for a high grade.

In other words, you want someone else to hand you a profit without you having to learn grading or put your capital at risk by buying a lot of coins or even incur the costs of making a lot of submission to the TPGs.


If you want a modern coin in a specific slab, then buy it in the slab and grade you want.

If you want to play the slabbed modern coin game, then learn to grade like a pro, put your own capital at risk and do your own work.


As to the substance of your post - all I care about is that a coin I'm considering buying is genuine, offered to me at a price I consider attractive and is a coin I'd like to own.

I don't really care how many times the coin has been to the TPGs or whether it has been to CAC. >>




Best answer of the thread. And reflective of my thoughts as well.

TwoSides2aCoin

I'm buried in widgets. What more disclosure is needed ?

libertydude

<< <i>Does ethics dictate that those coins returned from a TPG ungraded because they didn't meet the minimum grade requested be described as such? >>



Ethics is such a broad, general term that your question can ultimately be answered in a dozen different ways. This drove me crazy in my ethics class. I asked... can't we just use common sense?!?! There's normative, applied, descriptive, meta-ethics. There's another class based on profession, social implications, domain (sex, business, organization, etc.) as well. There's also different approaches to determine if something is 'ethical'. I forget them all, but I remember one being 'utilitarian', i.e., what's best for the greater good is the most ethical option (I distinctly remember this because I almost vomited when the prof was lecturing about it). My final report was great because I took, what at the time, was a very hot 'ethical' topic -- euthanasia -- and made the case that laws forbidding euthanasia are unethical. Surprisingly, my prof asked me to work with another student who had the opposing view to work on a submission to a journal paper (never did it because neither wanted the extra work.... ahhahaha!).

Anyway, to your question.... I don't think it's 'unethical' for someone to sell a non-slabbed coin without disclosing that it failed to meet some minimum grading requirement. It's no different than ANYONE examining a coin prior to selling (i.e., dealers that pre-screen before sending to TPG).

Lastly, lying by omission requires omitting FACTS. Grading is not factual-- it's totally subjective and variable.

I consider any unslabbed coin 'raw'. I ignore any subjective description on grade and base quality only on pictures provided.

EDIT: Forgot to add... what about the other side of the transaction? Does a buyer have to disclose to the seller that they are going to buy a slabbed coin because they believe (based on their expertise) that it will grade higher, then re-sell it for profit?

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Selling false hope when they know it isn't a 69 or 70 coin. Sorta like posting a picture of the obverse of a coin on Ebay and not the picture of the reverse with the big scratch across it...and, not disclosing the scratch in the description. >>

Sorta like? It's not anything at all like that. A coin that didn't get a 69 or 70 grade on one submission could possibly do so on another submission while a coin with a scratch will always be a coin with a scratch. You are equating an opinion (which can change) with an actual physical attribute (which cannot change) and somehow coming to the conclusion that not disclosing one is the same as (or, more accurately, "sorta like") not disclosing the other.

Kudbegud

<< <i>Yes - I think you're delusional and greedy (and resentful of the professionals).

The premise of your post seems to be that you want to buy coins from dealers that you can then send to the TPGs and score high grades and you don't want dealers to sell you coins that have already been rejected for a high grade.

In other words, you want someone else to hand you a profit without you having to learn grading or put your capital at risk by buying a lot of coins or even incur the costs of making a lot of submission to the TPGs.


If you want a modern coin in a specific slab, then buy it in the slab and grade you want.

If you want to play the slabbed modern coin game, then learn to grade like a pro, put your own capital at risk and do your own work.


As to the substance of your post - all I care about is that a coin I'm considering buying is genuine, offered to me at a price I consider attractive and is a coin I'd like to own.

I don't really care how many times the coin has been to the TPGs or whether it has been to CAC. >>



This wasn't my intention at all but I can see how you might come to that conclusion.
No, I don't want someone to hand me a profit..I don't think I implied that. Neither do I expect to buy coins from a dealer and score big with a high TPG grade.
But I would like to know that the coin I am looking to buy by phone or internet, that I can't hold in my hand and make a judgement on it's grade, is not post cherry picked, or already rejected for grading due to being lower than 69/70 or dinged up trash. I will admit that most inventory has been pre-judged. The best have been submitted for grading, maybe, and the rest sold "As Is". It's Buyer Beware. I get it.
This post is not about greedy profits. It's about truth in selling. I know I can buy a coin at the grade I want and the price I am willing to pay. My question to the group was about the ethics of representing a coin as "Raw" when it is not, technically or otherwise, truly "Raw" even if it is standard practice. Does looking over a coin and making a judgement, from experience or training, as to grade make a coin not "Raw"? No, certainly not, and I wouldn't expect any dealer to not do so. But when a coin has been submitted for a professional opinion and slabbing with a minimum grade of 69/70 and gets returned for not meeting minimum specs, then is that coin still "Raw"? I am suggesting that it is no longer "Raw". I'm suggesting it could be shady to sell as "Raw" or "Ungraded" when in fact it has been graded and found to be less then 69/70.

Sonorandesertrat

"This post is not about greedy profits. It's about truth in selling."

I have been buying coins for more than 45 years. There is very little truth in selling. Puffery and misrepresentation are rampant in the numismatic business, as is the case with other industries that focus on collectibles. Get over it, and react accordingly in order to protect oneself.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>But when a coin has been submitted for a professional opinion and slabbing with a minimum grade of 69/70 and gets returned for not meeting minimum specs, then is that coin still "Raw"? I am suggesting that it is no longer "Raw". >>

It appears you are attempting to redefine the term "raw" as it is currently understood. Likely to be a tough job, but that's just me...

TwoSides2aCoin

Consider this business as "the raw". Sink or swim in the raw, but remember : It's a ______ing hobby, no matter.

Kudbegud

<< <i>

<< <i>But when a coin has been submitted for a professional opinion and slabbing with a minimum grade of 69/70 and gets returned for not meeting minimum specs, then is that coin still "Raw"? I am suggesting that it is no longer "Raw". >>

It appears you are attempting to redefine the term "raw" as it is currently understood. Likely to be a tough job, but that's just me... >>


Maybe LOL
I can't say Ive seen a coin advertised as "Missed the minimum grade of 69/70" nor a lot of coins advertised as "Raw" for that matter. Maybe I'm just turned off by the puffery suggested by Sonorandesertrat that I have seen in my recent viewing of cable shopping channels. Puffery is not the half of it. More like a hurricane of misleading half truths. Why I torture myself I don't know. HEHE But it has only been recently, since the Reverse Proof Buffalo has been showcased. I just wanted to know what those guys were saying and asking for their slabs. Then seeing them hawking those gold plated quarters just sent me into disbelief.

s4ny

I think you have to assume that every raw coin has been to a TPG and
returned not in a slab.

I assume every coin in a NGC or PCGS slab has made a round trip to CAC.

Most unslabbed older coins have been cleaned.

19Lyds

<< <i>I wonder how many coins of those rejected as below 70 or below 69 in the original bulk, or individual, submissions were subsequently sold as "Raw" or "Ungraded" or with no descriptor at all? Selling in this manner could be considered as deceptive and borderline fraud. >>

No point in reading any further than this to understand that, YES, you're delusional.

ColonelJessup

<< <i>I think you have to assume that every raw coin has been to a TPG and
returned not in a slab.

I assume every coin in a NGC or PCGS slab has made a round trip to CAC.

Most unslabbed older coins have been cleaned. >>



Every? Thanks for a greater chance at a profit

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Maybe I'm just turned off by the puffery suggested by Sonorandesertrat that I have seen in my recent viewing of cable shopping channels. Puffery is not the half of it. More like a hurricane of misleading half truths. Why I torture myself I don't know. HEHE But it has only been recently, since the Reverse Proof Buffalo has been showcased. I just wanted to know what those guys were saying and asking for their slabs. Then seeing them hawking those gold plated quarters just sent me into disbelief. >>

You could always stop watching the cable shopping channels, you know.

DaveG

What mrpotatoheadd said: It appears you are attempting to redefine the term "raw" as it is currently understood. Likely to be a tough job, but that's just me...


I really don't think you're going to get the marketplace to accept your definition of "raw."

However, if you're really trying to buy only non-submitted coins (for whatever reason), then I suggest you should probably do what the pros do - offer to pay more for them. Depending on the grading skills of a particular dealer, you might get nice a MS-69-quality coin for only a little bit more than a previously submitted coin.

Whether you'll get it for less than a slabbed MS-69 is an interesting question.



Edited for clarity.

ps, I also suggest you stop watching the Cable TV coin shows (or at least mute the sound).

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>The ethics of selling coins returned ungraded because they missed the submitters minimum grade.

Am I delusional here or ????? I'd really like to hear from a dealer, like John of MCM, who has proven to be very customer oriented and fair.

I wonder how many coins of those rejected as below 70 or below 69 in the original bulk, or individual, submissions were subsequently sold as "Raw" or "Ungraded" or with no descriptor at all? Selling in this manner could be considered as deceptive and borderline fraud. A little harsh, I admit, and hard to impossible to prove. Depending entirely on the integrity of the seller. I don't think I have ever seen a descriptor of "Missed Minimum Grade on First submission". But knowing the coin didn't make the minimum grade and selling with out disclosing this fact seems a little shady. Selling false hope when they know it isn't a 69 or 70 coin. Sorta like posting a picture of the obverse of a coin on Ebay and not the picture of the reverse with the big scratch across it...and, not disclosing the scratch in the description.

Does ethics dictate that those coins returned from a TPG ungraded because they didn't meet the minimum grade requested be described as such? In court wouldn't this be considered lying by omission? In real estate or home sales you have to disclose known facts or face repercussions. Is selling a used car without disclosing that it has had collision damage and a bent frame constitute fraud or at least dishonesty? If this missed minimum grade fact was disclosed, which coin would you buy?

Graded and slabbed at the higher price but certified condition;

Pure Raw, as received from the Mint with out inspection of any kind, sold "As Is", or as sealed in original Mint shipping material, at a sum-what lower price but a higher grade possible if submitted for grading;

Disclosed as returned ungraded on first submission, known below 70 or 69, at the lowest price. It would probably not be resubmitted for grading by the buyer knowing it had no chance of getting 69 or 70. >>



As long as it isn't being sold and advertised as a 69 or 70 why would there be a need for disclosure? If someone asks if they were grading rejects then it one would surely want to disclose that. What if I sent in a monster box of 500 and got 80 back as 68 or less. If I offered them as single coins as gem BU taken from new mint tubes would that be deceptive? There are many out there who don't really care if it is a 68 or 69.

On a purely bullion basis why would a raw 68 be worth less than a raw 69 or a raw 70?

Type2

I just would like to know What LNC they are looking for prices.

TwoSides2aCoin

It's 24K through and through. That's PURE bull(ion) in the form of a buffalo we're discussing (not gold plated). I think the idea that everyone has to HAVE it coming out of the chute is like going to the rodeo and expecting every bull rider to go 8 seconds without getting thrown off. It's not going to happen and it's not about disclosure or ethics in "the ring" (in the slab with a grade) that creates the value or worth. It's the demand vs. supply.

That's just the game. We're discussing moderns and the mark-up in the media and how the HYPE increases the demand which is plentiful in the early stages. But the hobby takes time to balance out the market. The market doesn't balance the hobby as much as it weighs in on it.

Durexmetals

This may be too simple of an answer but....or question actually.

But isn't this the reason pcgs and NGC were invented, so you don't have to put your trust in the seller for the grade of a particular coin?

If grade is your main concern... Wouldn't it just make a heck of a lot more since to buy one slabed by the grading service of your choice?

And most of the time... More cost effective too

nags

While true in theory, to say PCGS's grading is worth nothing more than an opinion is a load of crap. It this were true there would be no point in resubmission as the same coin in different numbered slabs means nothing.

Is it unethical to crack from a genuine holder and sell without disclosure? If you answer yes than selling a coin as raw that didn't meet a minimum grade without disclosure is unethical.

As a customer I would like to know the prior history as I believe it is relevent to the value of the coin. Likewise, I'd feel an obligation to disclose the same information if I were selling.

mrpotatoheadd

Should an MS65 coin that was originally graded MS64 but upgraded under a reconsideration submission count for less in a registry set than a coin that graded MS65 the first time submitted?

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Should an MS65 coin that was originally graded MS64 but upgraded under a reconsideration submission count for less in a registry set than a coin that graded MS65 the first time submitted? >>



Should it even be allowed in?

mrpotatoheadd

Based on some of the posts here, you wouldn't think so. But then again, what's to say the coin that graded MS65 on the first submission is so overgraded that everybody who sees it thinks "What a gift!"

Zoins

There are some sellers that will tell you if a coin didn't make a certain grade so it may be useful to check the seller's policy or simply ask.

astrorat

<< <i>I assume every coin in a NGC or PCGS slab has made a round trip to CAC. >>

Or do you mean you treat every NGC or PCGS as if CAC has evaluated it? If you really do assume all NGC and PCGS coins have been to CAC, then your assumption is dead wrong.

s4ny

<< <i>

<< <i>I assume every coin in a NGC or PCGS slab has made a round trip to CAC. >>

Or do you mean you treat every NGC or PCGS as if CAC has evaluated it? If you really do assume all NGC and PCGS coins have been to CAC, then your assumption is dead wrong. >>



When evaluating a coin in a NGC or PCGS slab, I treat it as if it has been to CAC and didn't sticker. I also see many coins in NGC and PCGS slabs
that while graded, appear to be cleaned.

RYK

<< <i>

<< <i>I assume every coin in a NGC or PCGS slab has made a round trip to CAC. >>

Or do you mean you treat every NGC or PCGS as if CAC has evaluated it? If you really do assume all NGC and PCGS coins have been to CAC, then your assumption is dead wrong. >>


I assume that every coin that I consider purchasing has undergone every conceivable effort to maximize its value with slabs and stickers. Even if the dude who is selling me the coin is my best friend and did not try it, what about the guy before him or the guy before the guy before him? Again, I may be wrong in many or most of the circumstances, but it allows me to focus on the coin, the price, and where it fits into my collection, and less so on the intangibles and opinions of others.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>I assume every coin in a NGC or PCGS slab has made a round trip to CAC. >>

Or do you mean you treat every NGC or PCGS as if CAC has evaluated it? If you really do assume all NGC and PCGS coins have been to CAC, then your assumption is dead wrong. >>



Yep. I doubt if even 10% have been submitted and 80% aren't even worth submitting.

OKbustchaser

<< <i>I think you have to assume that every raw coin has been to a TPG and
returned not in a slab.

I assume every coin in a NGC or PCGS slab has made a round trip to CAC.

Most unslabbed older coins have been cleaned. >>




1. The hobby is full of slabbed coins which haven't been submitted to CAC. There is no financial reason to do so for most coins.

2. No, not every raw coin has been to a TPG and returned without being slabbed. In fact, the vast majority of raw coins have never been submitted as it wouldn't be cost effective to do so.

3. The majority of slabbed older coins have been cleaned at one time or another as well. For a long time it was basically impossible to sell a copper or silver coin unless it had been cleaned and prettied up. (Since I don't study gold I cannot comment on their care and treatment, but from all stories one hears it must have been pretty much the same.) It's only been the last 40 to 50 years that cleaning has been such a bugaboo in the hobby.

The only way to protect oneself from buying coins which don't measure up to the quality level one wishes is to learn to grade for oneself. Same deal whether a coin is raw, or graded, or even CACed.

rmpsrpms

If you know something about a coin (grading history, cleaning, dipping, doctoring, difficult to see damage, anything...) that makes it less desirable and thus worth less than you are selling it for, and you don't disclose it, you are being unethical. If you lie about it, you're committing fraud. But selling a coin is a business transaction, and thus is held to a very low ethical standard. The buyer needs to do his due diligence (caveat emptor). This includes asking questions about the coin such as "has this coin been cleaned?" or "has this coin ever been returned ungraded from a TPG?". If you say "I don't know" or "no" and these statements are false, and you sell the coin for more than it's worth if you had told the truth, then you are committing fraud.

Sonorandesertrat

"I assume that every coin that I consider purchasing has undergone every conceivable effort to maximize its value with slabs and stickers. Even if the dude who is selling me the coin is my best friend and did not try it, what about the guy before him or the guy before the guy before him? Again, I may be wrong in many or most of the circumstances, but it allows me to focus on the coin, the price, and where it fits into my collection, and less so on the intangibles and opinions of others."

This is very good advice. There are not many dealers who will knowingly leave money on the table.

RYK

<< <i>"I assume that every coin that I consider purchasing has undergone every conceivable effort to maximize its value with slabs and stickers. Even if the dude who is selling me the coin is my best friend and did not try it, what about the guy before him or the guy before the guy before him? Again, I may be wrong in many or most of the circumstances, but it allows me to focus on the coin, the price, and where it fits into my collection, and less so on the intangibles and opinions of others."

This is very good advice. There are not many dealers who will knowingly leave money on the table. >>


There's more to it than that. When you start running through all of the scenarios in your head (at least in my head), the process of buying a coin that you will hopefully enjoy for your collection becomes tainted. Why overlay a lot of negativity on an item that you are purchasing to enjoy?

It would be like going on a big vacation and fretting about the airfare (I could have got it $50 cheaper), the checked bag fees (I could have worn the same two outfits all week), the hotel tax (I could have slept in the rent-a-car), etc. Of course these things are all expensive, but it can ruin your trip if you obsess about all of this crap. Better to assume it's going to be expensive and that you will pay more than you should and go on and enjoy the vacation.

That's my opinion, anyway. I have in the past purchased coins and worried about upgrades, stickers, crossovers, and the like and tended not to enjoy the coins in those circumstances.

wondercoin

Better yet, I once purchased a very expensive coin for a customer that finally upgraded after (I am informed and believe) 62 failed attempts by a "world class grader"!! Yes, 63 submissions later ... a world record as far as I know !! The upgrade added about $50,000 to the coin's value. When (after significant disclosure) I "warned" my customer that he was considering buying a coin that had been a "point under" on 62 other submission occasions, he simply pointed out to me that the world class grader would have never submitted the coin that many times if he did not totally believe in it and after we all agreed it looked very nice for the new (higher) grade, I closed the deal on the piece. The coin recently resold at auction for about $50,000 more than I the price I had to pay to buy it a few years back for the customer.

So, on the flip side, should this coin have a sticker affixed to it that clearly states that it only achieved the grade on the holder after 62 failed submission attempts?

As always, there is no substitute for doing your own homework and not relying on anything but your own expertise.

Just my 2 cents.

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