@Koinicker said: @dcarr I wish you had the 1888-O, 1889-O, 1890-O, 1892-O, and 1899-O pieces from this counterfeit family in front of you to study. You would quickly see that punches were used on these. The 1888-O and 1890-O, as pictured in the book, appear to be the exact same varieties I own.
The 1888-O and 1890-O counterfeit Morgans on Page 446 and 447 of the VAM book both describe counterfeit Morgans from the same family group and thus the same manufacturing method in this case - through the use of punches, not engraving into the die (as described in the book). I would specifically like to direct your attention to the bottom of the 8's on the 1888-O. Note the indent or cut in the center of this bottom curve of the 8 which slants down to the right. This is consistent on each of the three 8s; shadows from the photo partially obscure this on the middle 8. This is not something you would get by individually hand-engraving numbers with a fine chisel or other engraving device. My 1899-O counterfeit from this same family uses the same '8' punch as used in the 1888-O described and listed above. I will let you reserve additional judgement on this after I get some high-quality close-ups.
Books like this without a strong focus on counterfeiting can and do make mistakes on counterfeiting methodology. I will admit that the number punches used in the dates of the 1888-O and 1890-O are not the best. Davignon's book on counterfeit CBHs, for instance, had loads of inaccuracies in this regard.
I could be wrong with the method of die production on the Micro O VAMs. Several varieties do show fields with micro-pitting and porosity, so a casting method to make these dies certainly is possible. The Transfer Die method just seems the most plausible method considering that the die steel would almost certainly be stronger and harder through the annealing process. I'm not sure how easily you could anneal a die that was cast.
After a second closer at the three 8s, I see that you may be right - it is possible that they were punched into the die. But a crude hand-engraved punch was used if that was the case.
Before spark-erosion techniques, a false die could be made by taking a wax impression off of a genuine coin, affixing that onto a wax shaft, and then doing a "lost wax" casting of it in some form of steel. This would leave the steel in the soft as-forged state. Some steel formulas can be hardened by heating to red-hot (but not melted) followed by rapid quenching (cooling) in water or oil. This is a "heat-treating" hardening process. Note that "annealing" is a softening process, not a hardening process. To anneal steel, it is heated to a certain temperature and then cooled very slowly. For hardening, it is cooled quickly.
One way to determine if a coin is struck or cast is to look at the edge and see if there are slide marks between the reeding which are formed when a struck coin is ejected from the collar. A cast coin will not have these. But note that a struck coin might not show slide marks if the coin has environmental damage or some other micro-etching of the surface.
_Great Thread.
Needs a resurrection, @dcarr , @CaptHenway@cupronik
Didn't know the 1901 micro o was such a rare bird, Been on the lookout for several years, and on the way I've found the other 3 vammed micro o ccc's, actually two 1900s, a dozen or so of the large O's from this family, and a 1900 S.
(Someone mentioned this family only used the O mm?)
Only one is certified, a 1902 Vam 67 in a 'Genuine' Blanchard holder, and one of only two not found in the wild. @dcarr , I see your VNA submissions on Vam world, congratulations on the new discoveries.
I don't know if the info in this book will be news to you but I found it extremely interesting, a great treatise on the tools and techniques of the coin reproduction trade, from simple casting, to explosive impact transfer, with photos and tips for those who want to try.
"Numismatic Forgery"
By Charles Larson.
All you need is a lathe and a smelter, oh, and a 10 gauge shotgun😊
I've done some casting before, I wanted to reproduce an 18th C silver skull sash buckle in gold,
Talk about pounding sand!
After many tries, I got one I was satisfied with.
Never tried with a coin, though I got interested in Ccc's from the colonial era counterfeits I found with my metal detector. (2-3x the number of regals)
I now have ccc examples from the 16th thru 20th century, many ex. Lorenzo, Cobwright, and Mossman.
And the Hunt continues. @Koinicker
Thanks for the info on the 1880s/90s family, I will keep my eyes open for those.
@Che_Grapes said:
Geeze - gotta check the dates on these posts!!
Yep... just like when eating a yogurt from way back in the fridge...
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 . Transactions with WilliamF, Relaxn, LukeMarshal, jclovescoins, braddick, JWP, Weather11am, Fairlaneman, Dscoins, lordmarcovan, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, JimW. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
@pcgscacgold said:
Today has been one of those days where a lot of the threads were brought back to life. Not sure why people do that.
i'm not saying the threads brought back this/last year are in the category i'm about to mention but for sure there are posts/threads, MANY MANY MANY, that are award-winning, laying in the archives collecting dust, just from the time of my membership that are great for new ideas, inspiration about coins, information, the people and more.
no to be dramatic but i bet i could bring back posts, diversely, 3 per week for the next couple of years and never make a single post of my own, and blow the modern forum's minds away. i am NOT joking.
if you or any one else has noticed the lovely threads @Zoins has been posting for months, those would be the minimum starting point for the threads to which i refer. OPs that are SO OP, they probably took from 30 min up to a couple hours to do properly. the research, references, images and personal experience to knock your socks off.
it may SEEM boring doing revisits but getting info/perspective and more from people that no longer post, live or are active etc, i mean numismatic masters for their area(s) is something the forum can always use. imho
one last thing and i'll let it go. when i saw the date of the OP. THAT in and of itself says alot about what was being found/researched and shared. he found/uncovered burfle-level discoveries including on the 93-o, 94-o and others i forget sitting entombed and unbeknownst to the tpgs and most numismatists in general and took a literal PSYCHOTIC amount of hours, discussion, images, searching and more to lead down the path to uncovering them and we are all the better for it.
ok THIS is the last thing (lol). for me, to be able to summon such amazing numismatic results with a simple TTT for a thread that has power (to those that can appreciate it, new or old) is like a numismatic lottery ticket bought at the price of $0.01. - and to remember those that have fallen, death/bans/loss of interest/other, i admit garnering quite a bit of pleasure from it.
Really Cool thread and something I didnt realize to be so extensive... When Dan posted the 1896-O private issue in the Big easy thread, I didnt know much about it but reading through here has opened my eyes to these...
Comments
After a second closer at the three 8s, I see that you may be right - it is possible that they were punched into the die. But a crude hand-engraved punch was used if that was the case.
Before spark-erosion techniques, a false die could be made by taking a wax impression off of a genuine coin, affixing that onto a wax shaft, and then doing a "lost wax" casting of it in some form of steel. This would leave the steel in the soft as-forged state. Some steel formulas can be hardened by heating to red-hot (but not melted) followed by rapid quenching (cooling) in water or oil. This is a "heat-treating" hardening process. Note that "annealing" is a softening process, not a hardening process. To anneal steel, it is heated to a certain temperature and then cooled very slowly. For hardening, it is cooled quickly.
One way to determine if a coin is struck or cast is to look at the edge and see if there are slide marks between the reeding which are formed when a struck coin is ejected from the collar. A cast coin will not have these. But note that a struck coin might not show slide marks if the coin has environmental damage or some other micro-etching of the surface.
_Great Thread.
Needs a resurrection,
@dcarr , @CaptHenway @cupronik
Didn't know the 1901 micro o was such a rare bird, Been on the lookout for several years, and on the way I've found the other 3 vammed micro o ccc's, actually two 1900s, a dozen or so of the large O's from this family, and a 1900 S.
(Someone mentioned this family only used the O mm?)
Only one is certified, a 1902 Vam 67 in a 'Genuine' Blanchard holder, and one of only two not found in the wild.
@dcarr , I see your VNA submissions on Vam world, congratulations on the new discoveries.
I don't know if the info in this book will be news to you but I found it extremely interesting, a great treatise on the tools and techniques of the coin reproduction trade, from simple casting, to explosive impact transfer, with photos and tips for those who want to try.
"Numismatic Forgery"
By Charles Larson.
All you need is a lathe and a smelter, oh, and a 10 gauge shotgun😊
I've done some casting before, I wanted to reproduce an 18th C silver skull sash buckle in gold,
Talk about pounding sand!
After many tries, I got one I was satisfied with.
Never tried with a coin, though I got interested in Ccc's from the colonial era counterfeits I found with my metal detector. (2-3x the number of regals)
I now have ccc examples from the 16th thru 20th century, many ex. Lorenzo, Cobwright, and Mossman.
And the Hunt continues.
@Koinicker
Thanks for the info on the 1880s/90s family, I will keep my eyes open for those.
Happy hunting all.
_
nice old thread bump!
LOVELY coins and images/info.
Very interesting.
Thanks for the bump.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Geeze - gotta check the dates on these posts!!
Yep... just like when eating a yogurt from way back in the fridge...
Today has been one of those days where a lot of the threads were brought back to life. Not sure why people do that.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Oldie, but a Goodie! Nice write up.
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i'm not saying the threads brought back this/last year are in the category i'm about to mention but for sure there are posts/threads, MANY MANY MANY, that are award-winning, laying in the archives collecting dust, just from the time of my membership that are great for new ideas, inspiration about coins, information, the people and more.
no to be dramatic but i bet i could bring back posts, diversely, 3 per week for the next couple of years and never make a single post of my own, and blow the modern forum's minds away. i am NOT joking.
if you or any one else has noticed the lovely threads @Zoins has been posting for months, those would be the minimum starting point for the threads to which i refer. OPs that are SO OP, they probably took from 30 min up to a couple hours to do properly. the research, references, images and personal experience to knock your socks off.
it may SEEM boring doing revisits but getting info/perspective and more from people that no longer post, live or are active etc, i mean numismatic masters for their area(s) is something the forum can always use. imho
one last thing and i'll let it go. when i saw the date of the OP. THAT in and of itself says alot about what was being found/researched and shared. he found/uncovered burfle-level discoveries including on the 93-o, 94-o and others i forget sitting entombed and unbeknownst to the tpgs and most numismatists in general and took a literal PSYCHOTIC amount of hours, discussion, images, searching and more to lead down the path to uncovering them and we are all the better for it.
ok THIS is the last thing (lol). for me, to be able to summon such amazing numismatic results with a simple TTT for a thread that has power (to those that can appreciate it, new or old) is like a numismatic lottery ticket bought at the price of $0.01. - and to remember those that have fallen, death/bans/loss of interest/other, i admit garnering quite a bit of pleasure from it.
dang this sat in drafts all evening? crapola
@LanceNewmanOCC
Agree that there are many posts worth bringing back. Some of the OPs would be nice to have back as well.
I thoroughly appreciate reposts of academic or white paper study topics. I am here to learn and enjoy. Thanks. Peace Roy
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Really Cool thread and something I didnt realize to be so extensive... When Dan posted the 1896-O private issue in the Big easy thread, I didnt know much about it but reading through here has opened my eyes to these...
It's all about what the people want...