I paid $600 for a circ common-date Morgan Dollar, in a SEGS holder, and it isn't even genuine, and I
dcarr
Posts: 8,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
dcarr
Posts: 8,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Eric
vamworld link
PCGS announcement of "micro-o" VAMS ('96 '00 '02)
Erik
Edit: oops I was wrong, not micro-o... The obverse fooled me
The two gouges between "UM" give it away plus the Very Near Date.
VAM 22C2
SEGS is one of the only TPGs that will still holder these type of Morgans.
Member, Society of Silver Dollar Collectors.
Looking for PCGS AU58+ 1901-P, 1896-O, & 1894-O
Eric
Do you collect these?
These types of counterfeits are not easy to obtain. No Auction site will let people sell them and they will not be holdered by PCGS, NGC, and ANACS.
This is only the second one I have seen. I do like the coin simply because these fooled everyone for so long.
Nice coin with an unique history.
Member, Society of Silver Dollar Collectors.
Looking for PCGS AU58+ 1901-P, 1896-O, & 1894-O
<< <i>Dcarr,
Do you collect these?
These types of counterfeits are not easy to obtain. No Auction site will let people sell them and they will not be holdered by PCGS, NGC, and ANACS.
This is only the second one I have seen. I do like the coin simply because these fooled everyone for so long.
Nice coin with an unique history. >>
I own several of these, including two of them in PCGS holders. Unless the auction house to really familiar with this particular counterfeit, it can fool lots of people. The micro-O is so easy, because it was heavily publicized. The larger-O counterfeits were not.
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
<< <i>Dcarr,
Do you collect these?
These types of counterfeits are not easy to obtain. No Auction site will let people sell them and they will not be holdered by PCGS, NGC, and ANACS.
This is only the second one I have seen. I do like the coin simply because these fooled everyone for so long.
Nice coin with an unique history. >>
I do collect the vintage counterfeit Morgan Dollars from this maker. The whole story of them (what little is known, that is), is fascinating.
SEGS does certify them. And they can sometimes be sold on eBay if nobody "reports" the auction.
The coin pictured is the VAM-22C2. It is NOT the infamous "micro-o". But it is still rare. All of the coins from this maker are exceptionally rare in higher grade (like this AU example) because most were first tumbled by the maker (to simulate some circulation), and then they were dumped directly into circulation where most became heavily worn since there was no reason for anybody to save them. What I like about the 1900-O VAM-22C2 is that it has the C4 reverse hub (wide gap between back of Eagle's neck and wing). All 1900-O Morgan Dollars are supposed to have the C3 (narrow gap) reverse. The C4 reverse was first used at the New Orleans Mint in 1901.
Here is an uncertified 1900-O VAM-22C1. Same obverse with die gouges at "UM". But it has the proper (for a 1900-O) C3 narrow-gap reverse:
After circulating for a while, most of these counterfeits were quite convincing. Here is a 1902-O from the same maker. It has the improper C3 narrow-gap reverse (all 1902-O coins should have the C4 wide-gap reverse). Another marker on this coin is the die gouge next to the wreath above "AR":
Here is a worn 1901-O counterfeit. The obverse quality is not as good as the other obverses from this maker (1896, 1900, 1902). The reverse die on this coin is the same as the 1902-O above (but apparently a somewhat-degraded later die state). It appears that all "1901" coins from this maker are exceptionally rare in any grade:
<< <i>Very informative are those the only 4 dates that are out there? The 86', 90', 91' and 92' >>
The four known dates from this maker are "1896", "1900", "1901", "1902". All have "O" mint mark (either normal or micro).
Three of the dates are shown above. Here is a high-grade 1896-o micro-o:
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
metal content?
<< <i>metal content? >>
Metal content is pretty much the same as real Morgan dollars, maybe a little heavy.
<< <i>I love collecting almost anything and am fascinated by collectors and what motivates them to pursue what they do. I just have to ask, what got those of you who collect these started with them?? >>
Like anything, it usually starts fairly innocently. The 1896-O, 1900-O, and 1902-O Micro Os were part of the Top 100 Morgan VAM list in 1996 as genuine coins, and had been presumed to be real for decades before that. Once demonstrated to be counterfeits (by whomever you'd like to credit), some people wrote them off while others looked into their history more and started pursuing and studying them as contemporary counterfeits. That there are as many die pairs identified today as there are is a credit to the people that have studied them.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
A P.S. to RB1026's question is, once PCGS determined the 1896, 1900 and 1902 micro-Os to be fake, it not only stopped grading them but it also offered to buy back every one in a PCGS holder (at generous prices I might add.) Several were bought back, but as of three years ago there were still 82 coins (all three dates combined) listed in the PCGS Pop Report. I tried to update those numbers for this post and found that PCGS no longer lists them at all. The bottom line is, PCGS-holdered micro-O coins from those three years have taken on a life of their own among the VAM collecting community and very, very rarely come up for sale.
<< <i>"Extremely rare" in high grades is a huge understatement! >>
By "high grades", I'm thinking VF and above are really rare.
I know of only one graded UNC (SEGS).
The 1901-O VAM-56 (pictured above), according to VAMworld.com, only two are known (now three if the one I found above is included).
The reported known grades are G, VG (mine), and Fine.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
First, some facts:
1) The coins were apparently spent at face value for a profit.
2) The operation was profitable because the silver content per coin at the time of manufacture was about 40 cents on the free market.
3) They easily passed in circulation because:
A) They were die-struck.
C) They contained the correct amount of silver.
4) All of the known fakes have a New Orleans "O" mint mark (1896-O, 1900-O, 1901-O, 1902-O).
5) Over 20 die pairs are known from this maker.
6) I estimate that I have found more than one of these vintage counterfeits for every 500 unattributed coins of those dates that I have looked at.
Now some speculation/questions:
This was not a small-time operation. It was BIG. Possibly 100,000 coins or more. Maybe a lot more. Most of the coins were subsequently worn and/or melted. That is why they are rare today.
It seems too big of an operation for a single person or small group to pull off. Who did it ? An organized crime gang ? A foreign government ?
Whoever did it, it was a "perfect crime" - highly profitible and undetected until many decades after the fact.
Why did they choose those dates ? To start, they would need genuine coins to make castings of. Apparently, they used coins that had been released into circulation prior to the release of US Treasury Department silver dollars around 1960. For example, most of the 1903-O coins were tied up in vaults and unavailable for use as models prior to 1960. I also note that the micro-o counterfeit die was made using a genuine 1899-o micro-o coin. The 1899-o micro-o is a coin that is fairly common in lower grades. It becomes much rarer in higher grades (AU and up). This is because the entire issue of 1899-o micro-o coins was dispersed in circulation and was not stored in valuts. As such, examples of that coin could be found in circulation (and so they would be available to use as a model). The fact that a higher-grade 1899-o micro-o coin was used as a model is an indication that the model coin was plucked from circulation before most of this variety became heavily worn. So I would estimate that the fakes were made during the Great Depression or before. The relatively mushy details of the Peace Dollar make them easier to counterfeit convincingly than Morgan Dollars. That these counterfeiters didn't produce any Peace Dollars is, I think, evidence that the fakes were manufactured prior to 1921.
Why did they exclusively produce coins with the "O" mint mark ? Was it because the area where the model coins were pulled from circulation predominantly had New Orleans products ? Or maybe they targeted the south east US as the area where the fakes were dispersed, and they wanted the coins to have the appropriate mint mark for that area ? If a foreign government was producing them, perhaps it was easier to ship them into New Orleans rather than some other ports ?
Or maybe the counterfeiters had clandestine contacts inside the New Orleans Mint ?
Could the counterfeiters have been former New Orleans Mint employees who were out of a job as of 1909 ?
One of the surviving slabbed 1900-O Micro O coins. One of the last ones slabbed by PCGS I believe. If memory serves me correct I got this coin back about 2-3 months before PCGS made their announcement that they would no longer slab them. I believe that was in 2005 sometime.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
To each his/her own, but to me, this is this like owning a fake Rolex.
Interesting!
It seems too big of an operation for a single person or small group to pull off. Who did it ? An organized crime gang ? A foreign government ? the Russians they get blamed for every thing else !
Do these privately minted coins with correct silver content and weight?
C) They contained the correct amount of silver.
Hillary Clinton did it. It is part of the massive Clinton criminal enterprise. These coins were produced by the Clinton foundation and are even more evidence that Hillary needs to be LOCKED UP! A new stash of these Clinton produced counterfeits were discovered at the DC pizza parlor where the Clintons were discovered to be operating a sex trafficking scheme. Thanks to the brave alt right hero who came in to uncover the Clinton sex trafficking crime ring, we now know the original source of these coins.
Sources: Breitbart, Fox News, Talk Radio, Drudge Report.
They are all die-struck (the VAM-listed ones, anyway).
The ring is slightly different than genuine Morgan Dollars because the VAM-listed vintage counterfeits typically have a slightly finer silver content (90% to 93% silver).
All I have seen have been die struck.
I am pretty good at telling the composition of a coin by ringing it, but I don't think I could tell 0.900 fine silver from 0.930 fine silver for sure via a ring test.
Since this thread is about 4 years old. I need to ask you Dan: Do you still own this coin?
Oh boy Dan. What I wouldn't give to check out your micro-o CC collection. I bet it's one of, if not the, best assembled and most extensive set in existence
Cast pieces are almost always made of tin, lead or a combination of both. The crystalline structure of these elements, along with the casting method of production causes a loosely spaced atomic structure, resulting in a dull or no resonance. Even struck 'coins' made from tin, lead or similar combination usually have little resonance. These are all things I have studied in trying to understand the production methodology of counterfeiting.
In contrast, a well poured, slow-cooled, homogeneous-crystalline structure of a copper, nickel, silver or gold coin/alloy will have a strong resonance when tapped. Similarly a cast alloy of these metals will have a decent resonance, but will be noticably more dull (several decibels).
Great thread, first time checking in here in a while, and not disappointed!
The price of silver fell to very low levels twice during the first decades of the 20th century. The first time was around WW1 (late teens) and that's when the micro Os were likely produced. The early 1930s saw the second large drop in the price of silver.
Silver was very cheap 1893-1915 but then rose because of the war. After the war it got cheap again and cratered in 1932.
http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx
I had a goal of collecting one of each of the VAM-listed privately made coins. At one point I got to within 5 or 6 of completion. But since then I've fallen much farther behind due to the discovery of new privately-made die pairs.
I think that there is still only one 1901-o micro-o known (not mine). Several of the more-recently discovered VAM-listed privately-made coins are presently unique, as far as I know. I have a pretty good collection, but I don't think it is nearly the top one.
But I do have this (finest known micro-o) 1896-o:
Nice 96-O! We had an AU in the back room when I was still working. Might still be there for all I know!
Oh man o man...I had gotten one of those 1896-O "micro O" while buying bulk silver on Ebay about 5 or 6 years ago...It was in very near uncirculated condition...Looked like it had a sand blasted finish....I thought it looked fake....so I included it in my next batch of junk silver dollars I sold on Ebay...So...I guess someone got a real deal...if THEY knew what they had gotten...Because I had not a clue.
Good to see this thread again.... had slipped my mind...need to run the antique shops in this area again... The only counterfeit Morgan I have is a 1902 CC.... at least that I know about
... I should double check my 1900 O Morgan... I did when this thread originated.... but do not remember what PUPs I used to determine it was legit. Cheers, RickO
grest informative report
Interesting! I need to get a loop out and revisit my Morgans.
100% Positive BST transactions
I am 100 Percent sure I have seen the 1900 or 1901 Micro O in PCGS and NGC slabs. Great throwback thread!
The one and only known 1901-o micro-o was discovered after PCGS stopped certifying the micro-o of 1896; 1900; 1902.
So it must have been a 1900-o micro-o.
Here is my only PCGS-certified privately-made VAM Morgan Dollar. Since it is in a newer generation holder, that means that it was certified AFTER the counterfeit status of the micro-o coins was determined in 2005. To be fair, the 1893-O privately made VAMs were discovered fairly recently (in 2014). I bought this one already in the PCGS holder. It is easy to spot (if you know where to look) because it has the C4 reverse hub type of 1900 (wide gap between back of Eagle's neck and wing):
@Dan Carr...We may have discussed this before, but have you obtained any significant portion of your contemporary fakes from any one region? I know that coins in circulation can travel anywhere, but when I did my article on these I used the collection of a dealer I know who travels to buy a lot, and he says that the majority of the 30 or so he has pulled out of bulk lots have come from the Northeast.
I saw a circ 1901-O micro O $1 several years ago at one of the Long Beach shows. Gene Sanders had possession of it
then. I want to say its grade was in the F-VF range if memory serves.
I have handled that piece and can confirm its existence. The grade sounds about right, though at the time I did not care about the grade of it.
Just compared my (crappy) picture of that coin to the one on the VAMWORLD website, and can confirm that they are not the same coin.