How to spot a fake Double Eagle?
WestySteve
Posts: 567 ✭✭✭
Hey guys,
I may be buying a raw, UNC, double eagle tomorrow. 1903-P. I saw it on Saturday and arranged the purchase for Monday because of bank issues.
It looked good, and it looked real...lots of luster on it. Pretty sure it was UNC as its holder indicated, but even if it's a slider, I'm getting it for melt, so I can't go wrong...unless it's fake.
So this is my question. How do you verify a genuine 1903 Unc double eagle? I mean, if it doesn't look "wrong", and it has the correct weight, what else is there? I don't think I can check it's gold content without damaging the coin. Are there any OMEGA versions of this I need to look for?
Looking for advice.
Thanks,
Steve
I may be buying a raw, UNC, double eagle tomorrow. 1903-P. I saw it on Saturday and arranged the purchase for Monday because of bank issues.
It looked good, and it looked real...lots of luster on it. Pretty sure it was UNC as its holder indicated, but even if it's a slider, I'm getting it for melt, so I can't go wrong...unless it's fake.
So this is my question. How do you verify a genuine 1903 Unc double eagle? I mean, if it doesn't look "wrong", and it has the correct weight, what else is there? I don't think I can check it's gold content without damaging the coin. Are there any OMEGA versions of this I need to look for?
Looking for advice.
Thanks,
Steve
0
Comments
How well do you know the seller?
What is your potential gain?
What is your potential loss? (Let's use 100% for this one.)
Is the chance of the potential 100% loss with the potential gain?
PCGS price guide for $20 gold liberty
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I do have the Breen guide...but I don't know if there is a diagnostic that I can look for.
Steve, I see more counterfeit Saint-Gaudens double eagles than Liberty twenties. However, both types are counteited, and as CaptHenway stated nobody will be able to explain how to authenticate $20 libs in a forum thread tonight.
My suggestion is that you have a bill of sale prepared that provides for a return privilege if (and only if) the coin is deemed to be counterfeit within a two week period. The fastest and easiest way to learn if the coin is real or not is to take it to a coin dealer and ask for their offer to purchase. If the dealer (assuming he knows what he/she is doing) offers you a fair market price then you can assume that the coin is real.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The return priviledge is a good idea, but that'll be hard to obtain. I'll take another look at it before I make the purchase.
Steve
<< <i>Thanks for the info. I don't have a photo of the coin. I did show it to a collector friend of mine who owns one and he thought it looked real. I also showed it to a dealer friend of mine who felt it was genuine. It sure looked real...had lots of mint luster and felt heavy in my hand like gold. I didn't see any seams on the edges and the reeding looked good.
The return priviledge is a good idea, but that'll be hard to obtain. I'll take another look at it before I make the purchase.
Steve >>
You won't find seams on the vast majority of fake gold coins because they aren't cast. Modern counterfeit gold coins made since the 1960's are die struck with collars.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If your dealer friend looked at the coin and felt that it was real, combined with the other facts you provided, it is highly unlikely that it is counterfeit. Even if it is, there's not much financial downside, since the old counterfeits (i.e. Lebanon) are composed of 18K to 20K gold. We haved assayed/refined several and this is what we have learned.
To me there is a lot more downside to buying common date gold raw (getting stuck with a counterfeit) than upside (saving a few bucks). And look at it this way. Certified coins are much easier to sell. Given the high cost of postage and grading, why not let the seller assume those coins, and buy certified coins? To me it's a no brainer.
<< <i>I know that this does not answer the question, but why buy raw gold if you are not good at spotting counterfeits? This is especially true with $20 gold coins. Quite often you save very little by buying the raw coin for common date pieces in MS-63 and lower.
To me there is a lot more downside to buying common date gold raw (getting stuck with a counterfeit) than upside (saving a few bucks). And look at it this way. Certified coins are much easier to sell. Given the high cost of postage and grading, why not let the seller assume those coins, and buy certified coins? To me it's a no brainer. >>
I hear you and I get what you're saying. My reasoning is that if I can verify the density jibes with gold...and it sure has the color of my other gold coins...then my financial downside is really low because I'm buying it for melt. But, I have a decent upside because I can get it slabbed, and it really looks like a MS63...really nice fields on it, but scratched up surfaces. So if I buy it for melt, I'll pay $1350 or so. After slabbing it, I'll be in it $1380. I think I'll come out ahead a couple hundred bucks...this is because I can't get to shows so I buy my stuff at on-line auctions.
So yes, a big risk that I can hopefully mitigate to a little risk for a decent reward.
<< <i>I was at the Westchester show in 1997 looking at $20 Libs. when a guy flashed a 1903 $20 and said his was much nicer. It was a counterfeit, clear to the dealers at that show but without a contact mark on the surfaces. The seasoned dealers can spot those ten feet away, color. I understand they made a lot of them in the Arab emirates in the 1970s. >>
This must be the group of coins that Breen warns about. Can you elaborate on the color? Paler? Darker? Too shiny? I feel I'm safe with this one because this coin has some nice mint luster...good cartwheel on it.
"If the dealer (assuming he knows what he/she is doing) offers you a fair market price then you can assume that the coin is real."
I would not make that assumption. I have met a number of experienced dealers who, in moments of hectic distraction, have purchased fake U.S. gold coins. I have also met dealers who will not offer a fair market price for genuine U.S. gold coins (at least, not at first).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I've done some research and learned that the coin will have a diameter of 34mm, a thickness of 2.41mm, and a weight of 33.436 grams. I expect a little variability in these dimensions, but I can check them all before purchasing because I have a good scale. I also brought a high magnification loupe that I can look deep into the scratches for color variability or corrosion. Lastly, I was looking at some reproductions, like the one made for collectibles commemorating the U.S. Central America and I can see those from across the room. It's possible I can make a mistake...I'm willing to take the chance, but I take comfort in the fact that even if it is a fake, it will have the density of gold.
Oh yeah...I'll do the magnet test also, but if the density checks out, that wouldn't help me more than likely. The main thing I'm worried about is something like a thick gold outerlayer with a lead core...but that wouldn't be worth making for this particular date and mintmark IMHO.
I'll also be looking for an omega symbol...any recommendations on where to find one?
Edit: the plot thickens. Spoke with the seller, and they told me that they brought a few of their coins up to a local dealer who bought three of them. I know the dealer, so I can call him and get his input before I do this transaction. They want to sell me this one because I'm offering more than he was by about $100. That's OK by me...I'm not a dealer.
Editx2: Cool...I just spoke to my dealer friend. He saw, authenticated, and purchased three of them. I think this will turn out well.
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this is a good place to start.
.
<< <i>I know that this does not answer the question, but why buy raw gold if you are not good at spotting counterfeits? This is especially true with $20 gold coins. Quite often you save very little by buying the raw coin for common date pieces in MS-63 and lower.
To me there is a lot more downside to buying common date gold raw (getting stuck with a counterfeit) than upside (saving a few bucks). And look at it this way. Certified coins are much easier to sell. Given the high cost of postage and grading, why not let the seller assume those coins, and buy certified coins? To me it's a no brainer. >>
Why buy a raw piece??
So when I last talked to the seller, we agreed to meet at a certain time and place. Me and the Mrs. couldn't get cash until after the weekend.
So we meet, and the seller pulls out the coin(s). She has two different liberty double eagles...both common dates. Both are marked MS60, and one is actually a slider. She also shows me a reasonable St. Gaudens that she won't sell without conferring with her husband.
I gently tell her that I don't want any old coin...I wanted the coin that I saw and we agreed to buy and shook hands on. After polite discussion, she tells me that she has a dozen of them that she's inherited, and she'll sell me the one that I'd like. She then tells me that she needs to get a price guide. She also tells me she inherited other coins too, which they will be liquidating.
Being a moral guy, I'm planning on looking through her stuff and picking out something nice, but nothing that would rip her off. I'll appraise the rest for her, and make an offer on the box of non-gold coins...if it makes sense (I don't need junk).
So, I kept my calm when she innocently did a bait and switch on me, and perhaps this will end up working out in my favor after all. I can also help her, and sleep well at night.
<< <i>Steve, I see more counterfeit Saint-Gaudens double eagles than Liberty twenties. However, both types are counteited, and as CaptHenway stated nobody will be able to explain how to authenticate $20 libs in a forum thread tonight.
My suggestion is that you have a bill of sale prepared that provides for a return privilege if (and only if) the coin is deemed to be counterfeit within a two week period. The fastest and easiest way to learn if the coin is real or not is to take it to a coin dealer and ask for their offer to purchase. If the dealer (assuming he knows what he/she is doing) offers you a fair market price then you can assume that the coin is real. >>
And then you can thank the dealer and let him know that you bought a coin but didn't want to pay whatever price he would charge you.
Why bother
See Bull Jones response
<< <i>After reading a book on counterfeit detection, I wouldn't take a chance
Why bother
See Bull Jones response >>
Who's Bull Jones or was that a freudian slip?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>And now, the continuing story...
So when I last talked to the seller, we agreed to meet at a certain time and place. Me and the Mrs. couldn't get cash until after the weekend.
So we meet, and the seller pulls out the coin(s). She has two different liberty double eagles...both common dates. Both are marked MS60, and one is actually a slider. She also shows me a reasonable St. Gaudens that she won't sell without conferring with her husband.
I gently tell her that I don't want any old coin...I wanted the coin that I saw and we agreed to buy and shook hands on. After polite discussion, she tells me that she has a dozen of them that she's inherited, and she'll sell me the one that I'd like. She then tells me that she needs to get a price guide. She also tells me she inherited other coins too, which they will be liquidating.
Being a moral guy, I'm planning on looking through her stuff and picking out something nice, but nothing that would rip her off. I'll appraise the rest for her, and make an offer on the box of non-gold coins...if it makes sense (I don't need junk).
So, I kept my calm when she innocently did a bait and switch on me, and perhaps this will end up working out in my favor after all. I can also help her, and sleep well at night. >>
Sorry, but this story reads like a fisherman casting a hook for a fish with you being the one in the water ... perhaps hot water if you take the bait. I'd pass if I was not 100% sure of my ability to spot counterfeits.
I don't like bait and switch games at all. As a dealer I'd play along for a while, but as a collector life too short to put up with the aggravation. As a collector the hobby should be fun.
The right color and luster. Orig surfaces with some copper alloy spots or dark planchet streaks would be a plus. Semi-PL luster is what's often seen on the fakes. The grainier the
luster swirls the better. A vibrant orange/yellow gold is what's usually seen. It's the pinkish hues or coins almost lacking color that would get my attention.
Has to pass the ring test or it's cast.
Most US gold coins will show fine die cracks and/or polishing lines hidden in or around the devices. The more of these the better. It's hard to duplicate these US mint features on a
cast or even die struck counterfeit. The features and details on the coins should be fairly sharp. Cast counterfeits often lack typically seen details.
Tooling marks are a dead give away. Raised dots, lumps, blobs, etc from the die maker trying to removed imperfections in the die.
Proper weight and size goes w/o saying.
Between the ring test, tooling marks, die cracks, and die polish, you should be able to nail the vast majority of fakes. Of the few I've run into, they failed on some or all of these markers.
<< <i>
<< <i>And now, the continuing story...
So when I last talked to the seller, we agreed to meet at a certain time and place. Me and the Mrs. couldn't get cash until after the weekend.
So we meet, and the seller pulls out the coin(s). She has two different liberty double eagles...both common dates. Both are marked MS60, and one is actually a slider. She also shows me a reasonable St. Gaudens that she won't sell without conferring with her husband.
I gently tell her that I don't want any old coin...I wanted the coin that I saw and we agreed to buy and shook hands on. After polite discussion, she tells me that she has a dozen of them that she's inherited, and she'll sell me the one that I'd like. She then tells me that she needs to get a price guide. She also tells me she inherited other coins too, which they will be liquidating.
Being a moral guy, I'm planning on looking through her stuff and picking out something nice, but nothing that would rip her off. I'll appraise the rest for her, and make an offer on the box of non-gold coins...if it makes sense (I don't need junk).
So, I kept my calm when she innocently did a bait and switch on me, and perhaps this will end up working out in my favor after all. I can also help her, and sleep well at night. >>
Sorry, but this story reads like a fisherman casting a hook for a fish with you being the one in the water ... perhaps hot water if you take the bait. I'd pass if I was not 100% sure of my ability to spot counterfeits.
I don't like bait and switch games at all. As a dealer I'd play along for a while, but as a collector life too short to put up with the aggravation. As a collector the hobby should be fun. >>
I get what you're saying, but she gave the impression she considers all the coins essentially the same. They are all graded MS60 by some private firm, but I think this was back in the day when MS63 didn't exist. It'll be worth it if I get a chance to evaluate a dozen of them and pick out my favorite...if that comes to pass.
<< <i>Things I'd expect to see on a real US AU/UNC $20 Lib:
The right color and luster. Orig surfaces with some copper alloy spots or dark planchet streaks would be a plus. Semi-PL luster is what's often seen on the fakes. The grainier the
luster swirls the better. A vibrant orange/yellow gold is what's usually seen. It's the pinkish hues or coins almost lacking color that would get my attention.
Has to pass the ring test or it's cast.
Most US gold coins will show fine die cracks and/or polishing lines hidden in or around the devices. The more of these the better. It's hard to duplicate these US mint features on a
cast or even die struck counterfeit. The features and details on the coins should be fairly sharp. Cast counterfeits often lack typically seen details.
Tooling marks are a dead give away. Raised dots, lumps, blobs, etc from the die maker trying to removed imperfections in the die.
Proper weight and size goes w/o saying.
Between the ring test, tooling marks, die cracks, and die polish, you should be able to nail the vast majority of fakes. Of the few I've run into, they failed on some or all of these markers. >>
Fantastic info...thank you!
<< <i>Has to pass the ring test or it's cast. >>
Not true. A real coin can have an internal flaw resulting in the coin failing the ring test. Also, virtually every counterfeit US gold coin produced in the last 50 years is struck from dies.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>They are all graded MS60 by some private firm, but I think this was back in the day when MS63 didn't exist. >>
So long as the Sheldon grading scale as been used on certification holders, the MS-63 grade has been in use. While it is true that Sheldon only used MS-60, 65 and 70, the MS-63 grade has been in use for many years, even a few years before slabs came on the scene.
<< <i>
So, I kept my calm when she innocently did a bait and switch on me, and perhaps this will end up working out in my favor after all. I can also help her, and sleep well at night. >>
I don't think I have ever seen the words innocent and bait and switch used in the same sentence before.
Look, it may be innocent, but hopefully the amount of possible gain is not life changing for you because I would certainly advise against doing business with this person. It sounds like a tale I would read in an eBay auction.
Joe.
<< <i>Orig surfaces with some copper alloy spots or dark planchet streaks would be a plus. >>
A veterian dealer I know, who has handled a lot of gold, says that he has never seen a counterfeit U.S. gold piece that had copper spots. A few years ago he gave a presentation to our club during which he showed us about a dozen counterfeit gold coins. A couple of them were scary. You had to examine them closely to see that they were bad.
<< <i>
<< <i>Has to pass the ring test or it's cast. >>
Not true. A real coin can have an internal flaw resulting in the coin failing the ring test. Also, virtually every counterfeit US gold coin produced in the last 50 years is struck from dies. >>
If you run across that 1 in a 1000 authentic coin with an internal defect that doesn't ring, then you'd be inadvertenty passing on a good coin. Ok. So you're accuracy will only be
99.9%. I can live with that. And you still won't be buying a bogus coin. I've personally never run into an authentic 90% silver/gold US coin that failed the ring test. And even
with an internal defect, I still have to think that 90% silver or gold will ring to some extent. It's not like it's a clad/sandwiched coin. The silver center flowing hair dollars have a
design "defect" with that plug. Do they ring? How about US ring dollars with the centers missing? That's a pretty good defect. Do they ring?
And for those die struck fakes that can pass the ring test.....nearly all will fail on some of the other items I listed. At least what I posted gives the less initiated a fighting chance to
avoid bad raw gold. It's better than going in blind.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Has to pass the ring test or it's cast. >>
Not true. A real coin can have an internal flaw resulting in the coin failing the ring test. Also, virtually every counterfeit US gold coin produced in the last 50 years is struck from dies. >>
If you run across that 1 in a 1000 authentic coin with an internal defect that doesn't ring, then you'd be inadvertenty passing on a good coin. Ok. So you're accuracy will only be
99.9%. I can live with that. And you still won't be buying a bogus coin. I've personally never run into an authentic 90% silver/gold US coin that failed the ring test. And even
with an internal defect, I still have to think that 90% silver or gold will ring to some extent. It's not like it's a clad/sandwiched coin. The silver center flowing hair dollars have a
design "defect" with that plug. Do they ring? How about US ring dollars with the centers missing? That's a pretty good defect. Do they ring?
And for those die struck fakes that can pass the ring test.....nearly all will fail on some of the other items I listed. At least what I posted gives the less initiated a fighting chance to
avoid bad raw gold. >>
A modern pressure injected cast coin using the lost wax method will also ring if the proper alloy is used. As I said earlier, the vast majority of gold counterfeits produced since the 1960's are struck and will ring. The bottom line is the best counterfeit detection tool is the stereo microscope and the eyes of an expert authenticator.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire