Advice on flawed PSA 10
ManOfLeisure
Posts: 26
Hi all, I recently bought a PSA graded 10 Nolan Arenado 2010 Bowman Chrome Refractor Auto off eBay. Received the card today and it appear to have several markings on it (see photo). I cannot feel these on the case, so they are not external scratches. Don't see any way the card could have received a 10 looking like this. Any ideas on what could have happened? I'm planning to return it to the seller. Do you agree this is the right course of action? Thanks.
Collecting Rockies, HOFers, and my favorites from the 70s through today.
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I don't like PSA slabs for modern chrome stuff.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Digicat, I have mostly stopped buying anything but graded cards. What service do you prefer over PSA and why?
Thanks,
Some might know what i am talking about.
<< <i>Toothpaste might have evaporated.
Some might know what i am talking about. >>
Don't leave me hanging with that... What's the deal with toothpaste?
<< <i>
<< <i>Toothpaste might have evaporated.
Some might know what i am talking about. >>
Don't leave me hanging with that... What's the deal with toothpaste? >>
You can use toothpaste as a mild abrasive to buff out scratches on refractors.
<< <i>Digicat, I have mostly stopped buying anything but graded cards. What service do you prefer over PSA and why? >>
That's a bit of a pickle right there.
You'd pick PSA because of the sterling reputation and the solid resale value. However, then you have to deal with the crappy slab and situations like this. PSA also has the rap of being lenient towards surface issues on modern cards like this.
BGS has a better slab. They seal the card in a special sleeve before encapsulation. With the subgrades, you usually won't get taken by surprise when you get the card in your hands. BGS has the reputation of being brutal on any sort of surface issue when it comes to chrome refractor type cards. Yet, BGS still comes below PSA in terms of auction prices.
If I just absolutely needed a gem mint chrome refractor type card to put in my personal collection, I'd go get a BGS card with the appropriate sub-grades.
If I wanted to get a chrome refractor type card graded for resale, I'd probably submit to PSA.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
I'm not sure how I feel about returning the card... it depends on a few different variables... but TPG was suppose to eliminate this sort of thing, wasn't it?
Snorto~
<< <i>I've seen PSA use card condoms in some slabs, but they seem to do so inconsistently. Will they do this on request by the original submitter or via their reholdering service? >>
It's not sleeves that they put the cards in, but a single sheet of mylar (?) plastic placed on top of the card. This is usually used when they put a card in a slab that's too big for the card. It helps keep the card from moving around too much. They also use it with really thin cards.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>This is very odd. Who cares about the actual card in the slab? The label's all that matters...............Right? >>
Funny that a lot of people feel that way. I most certainly care about both.
I've asked the seller to determine if he was the original submitter to PSA - no answer from him so far.
Some good info in this thread too - I just sent my first batch of modern to BGS and two high dollar cards Alhadeff the dreaded surface streak. I should have thought of toothpaste - used it on other items in last. Hoping for 9s on surface and 9.5-10s on rest.
<< <i>Bottom line is you are unhappy with the product and you should return it for money back. >>
Agree, this is what I am going to do. Also trying to learn as much as possible from the experience. Appreciate everyone's comments.
<< <i>You are seriously returning a card because of marks on the inside of the PSA slab? Please post your Ebay, thank you in advance. >>
I'm unable to tell if the markings are on the inside of the slab or on the card. Was hoping folks on this forum might help me to figure that out. Your contribution to the conversation has been less than helpful. Have a nice day.
<< <i>
<< <i>You are seriously returning a card because of marks on the inside of the PSA slab? Please post your Ebay, thank you in advance. >>
I'm unable to tell if the markings are on the inside of the slab or on the card. Was hoping folks on this forum might help me to figure that out. Your contribution to the conversation has been less than helpful. Have a nice day. >>
Don't pay any mind to him.. He's one of the members on this forum that "contribute" by derailing threads and upsetting other members. He's been thrown off CU already and this is one of his alts.
On what grounds can you return a PSA 10 Gem Mint graded trading card?
Unless the case was cracked in shipping I just can't see a valid reason why a return would be honored.
If this was listed by Probstein for example there would essentially be no description. The PSA grade is the description in most of these auctions.
So what you are saying is if I disagree with the PSA grade I can return it?
So far the seller has not replied to my emails. Not a good sign.
<< <i>A lot of sellers do not describe every detail of every graded card.
If this was listed by Probstein for example there would essentially be no description. The PSA grade is the description in most of these auctions.
So what you are saying is if I disagree with the PSA grade I can return it? >>
That's not at all what I am saying. I have no idea if the damage occurred before or after the rating was given. All I know is that it is damaged now. I am curious about the condition of the card at the time of rating though.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>It'd probably be a good idea to invest a few bucks in a decent loupe. You'll be able to determine whether those marks are on the slab, the card, or both. >>
Will do. Can you recommend one?
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
I find it humerous that the group mentality is when someone sells a graded card and the buyer wants to return it everyone defends the seller and says that this is what is wrong with Ebay etc...
Then when a buyer posts that he doesnt like the condition of Ebay certified third party authenticator or in this case a minor defect in the case people say oh yeah you should return that.
As mentioned, you are buying a card with a grade. If you are so anal rententive about the condition of the case have it reslabbed. The marks in the photo are not common but happen time to time in the plastic, perhaps it's the first you've seen but it does happen, they usually dont even show in scans and typically only on a certain angle in a icture. Its not the sellers fault. Perhaps we have differing views but if I had higher than normal standards (which here is that you want millions of slabs made without any variation in the plastic) I woulndnt mind paying a few bucks to have it redone to my standard.
If I get a card back from PSA that is graded lower than I think it should be, I'll crack and resubmit. If it comes back higher than I thought it would, I obviously feel happy about it and keep it as is. No one is about to crack a card out if it seems over-graded. I will however do my very best to provide accurate high-res scans and describe any flaws I notice, especially ones that seem out of the ordinary for the grade. Two things that have been said countless times on this board are (1) buy the card not the holder; and, (2) not every (insert numerical grade here) is created equal. It is on the seller to provide the necessary tools for the buyer to be able to have an accurate understanding of what they are buying and as long as you take the effort to do that as a seller, you shouldn't end up with complaints from customers; when you do in these cases, then the conversations should end with the customer apologizing that they missed something that was in fact detailed in the description. All that being said, if the seller doesn't do his part to describe the flaws, he'll end up getting complaints and having to deal with returns. To me, it is worth the extra time it takes to include quality front & back scans and draw attention to any noteworthy points of item's condition if they're not otherwise obvious from the scans since the time involved in that is preferred to the hassle of putting out fires whether they're warranted or not.
<< <i>The PSA grade is the description in most of these auctions. >>
Exactly. The grade IS the description. PSA makes the card criteria for each grade readily available. We all know all PSA 10s are not created equal. So is everyone saying it would be ok for a winning bidder on one of your auctions to buy a PSA 9, inspect it to see if it is a strong PSA 9, and decide to return it if they felt it couldn't get a bump? Come on! Many people would be starting a thread on here encouraging others to add that bidder to our block lists, or at least adding them to their own.
<< <i>The marks in the photo are not common but happen time to time in the plastic, perhaps it's the first you've seen but it does happen, they usually dont even show in scans and typically only on a certain angle in a icture. >>
Exactly, if you think missing surface issues is tough on vintage cards, try it on modern shiny ones! I would imagine the OP took the picture at the angle he did because it was one of the few where you could actually see the issue he is talking about. Not sure if that would show up in a flatbed scan, it sure wouldn't in most pictures unless someone knew it was there and trying to capture it.
I believe by virtue of the OP asking if returning it was the "right course of action", that he understands this issue isn't so black and white. He's not sure if the card itself is damaged, how/when the spots happened, or if the seller knew about them. I don't know about the right course of action, but if you aren't happy and the seller offers a refund, go for it. But I too wouldn't be surprised if you end up filing a dispute that eBay sides with the seller.
Snorto~
<< <i>... He's not sure if the card itself is damaged, how/when the spots happened, or if the seller knew about them....
Snorto~ >>
Spot on, exactly how I'm feeling. Bottom line for me is that I didn't get the card I expected. The spots are obvious at most angles. I display my cards and this one looks like crap. I had no reason to believe this was the case when I bought it. Maybe the seller intentionally deceived me, maybe it was just dumb luck. Maybe the spots were made worse by mailing the card... The 'why' is not really my concern outside of trying to learn from this so as to reduce the chances of it happening to me again.
It's been a very interesting experience reading the very different view points of buyers vs. sellers here. As a buyer, I hope that you sellers would stand behind your products. Getting over on a buyer is shortsighted and over the long run won't be the profitable move. I've already added Probstein to my personal blacklist. I only buy gem/mint graded cards and simply won't take the risk of buying one from him. I don't fault him, but rather believe that PSA is doing him a disservice by relaxing their standards for him.
<< <i>
<< <i>... He's not sure if the card itself is damaged, how/when the spots happened, or if the seller knew about them....
Snorto~ >>
I only buy gem/mint graded cards and simply won't take the risk of buying one from him. I don't fault him, but rather believe that PSA is doing him a disservice by relaxing their standards for him. >>
Probstein is in the consignment business. He may submit cards but the majority of the cards he sells, other folks submitted.
And yes, grading is inconsistent, this isn't a new development.
When you sell thousands of items like graded cards, some of them will be over graded, some will be under graded. The good news is the scans are large and it's very easy to make a call on individual cards.
Bad PSA holder, not bad PSA grading.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
I see the "snowflake" artifacts/marks/damage, but what are those parallel lines that appear to go both under and over the ink of the signature?
Thank you,
Eric
<< <i>Probstein is in the consignment business. He may submit cards but the majority of the cards he sells, other folks submitted.
And yes, grading is inconsistent, this isn't a new development.
When you sell thousands of items like graded cards, some of them will be over graded, some will be under graded. The good news is the scans are large and it's very easy to make a call on individual cards. >>
Ok, so glad I brought this up on this thread then... I am reading on this board and others that Probstein receives ridiculous preference on the cards that he submits for grading. As a result there is a much better chance that his tens are really eights or nines than the expected normal distribution of such errors caused by inconsistent grading. Curious as to the thoughts of the folks on this thread on that subject.
<< <i>Something doesn't smell right about the OP. >>
Not sure what to make of that, but have a nice day.
<< <i>Im not an alt, though I do rather enjoy the lifestyle, thanks.
I find it humerous that the group mentality is when someone sells a graded card and the buyer wants to return it everyone defends the seller and says that this is what is wrong with Ebay etc...
Then when a buyer posts that he doesnt like the condition of Ebay certified third party authenticator or in this case a minor defect in the case people say oh yeah you should return that.
As mentioned, you are buying a card with a grade. If you are so anal rententive about the condition of the case have it reslabbed. The marks in the photo are not common but happen time to time in the plastic, perhaps it's the first you've seen but it does happen, they usually dont even show in scans and typically only on a certain angle in a icture. Its not the sellers fault. Perhaps we have differing views but if I had higher than normal standards (which here is that you want millions of slabs made without any variation in the plastic) I woulndnt mind paying a few bucks to have it redone to my standard. >>
PSAamp you clearly have some knowledge, it's too bad you didn't post this as your first response. I think if you changed your approach it would help you make your points better.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
For those with moderate to severe OCD, return it. Because you'll never be happy with the card as is, even if the marks are on the case only.
I mailed it back to him today and provided him with all of your advice in an email. Everyone wins - including USPS who gets my $12 for shipping with insurance :-). Thanks again for the help folks.
<< <i>So the seller replied to me as follows: "Yes you can return the card no problem. I purchased the card that way, wasnt too sure what to make of the markings...got a 10 grade somehow." >>
Glad the hear the seller honored their return policy and this worked out for you. Good luck finding one without any flaws to add to your collection in place of this one.
Oh, and while I am certainly no fan of Probstein for other reasons, I believe you may be thinking of 4 Sharp Corners (4SC) as the mass submitter often discussed on here as having specious grades.
Snorto~
<< <i> Oh, and while I am certainly no fan of Probstein for other reasons, I believe you may be thinking of 4 Sharp Corners (4SC) as the mass submitter often discussed on here as having specious grades.
Snorto~ >>
Thanks, good to know. Before this happened I was blissfully ignorant of the possibility of such preferential treatment. I can tell you that Probstein was mentioned by name in one forum - I'll look around and see if I can find it, but several others as well - some reporting first hand that their submissions come back with "laughable" grades now that they are providing significant volume. I should also call out that the same has been said for BGS - not only PSA. As a buyer, this scares the hell out of me. I found another BGS 9.5/10 Arenado Auto on eBay yesterday, but the scan was blurry. I asked the seller for a better scan and he said it was the best he could do. I bid on it, but will max my offer at 1/3 of what I would otherwise pay because of my new perception of the risk here. Just another problem for a hobby that is now fraught with them IMO.
I may start a new thread to discuss this topic in more detail, because I think it's important and would like to bring some experts in on the topic. I just started thinking about it a few days ago. I'm sure there are others who have been thinking about it for years.