Paypal Chargeback Policy as it would relate to a PM transaction

piecesofme

Below is exactly, word for word, from Paypals site, what they would do if you were involved in a chargeback being the seller.
Please read it, it's an easy read by design I'm sure. But read it with this one thing in mind...
Where does it say the buyer that initiated the chargeback has to send the item back to the seller?

My example would be this. You are the seller and lose the chargeback dispute. The buyer would then be fully refunded AND has no obligation to send you back the item!
Let's say it's broken, I'd want the item back anyway...or the buyer is claiming it to be fake, but you are 100% certain it is genuine. You would want that item back, right??? Guess what, the buyer does not have to send it back to you and they can be fully refunded.
And you wonder why I dont do regular Paypal here or ATS? If I do it on eBay, it's because I have to and know that going into it. Tell me how this policy gives a seller any piece of mind whatsoever.

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The Chargeback Policy word for word:
If you've been notified of a chargeback, we'll help you sort it out.

Our team of chargeback specialists can help you build a case to take to the credit card company - assuming you have good reason to dispute it. We'll provide you with all the relevant transaction details and walk you through the steps for submitting information to the credit card company.

What to do if you receive a chargeback:

1.Log in to your PayPal account.
2.Go to the Resolution Center.
3.Respond to the chargeback notice or (check on the status of an existing one).
4.Provide PayPal with the information relating to the chargeback, including all transaction records (such as proof of shipment).
5.The PayPal chargeback specialist will then dispute the chargeback on your behalf and try to recover your funds from the buyer's credit card company.
6.If the credit card company decides in your favor, the buyer will be charged for the transaction and you'll get your money back.
7.If the decision is in favor of the buyer, the transaction will be cancelled and the buyer will receive a full refund.
It's PayPal's mission to help you resolve the dispute as quickly and painlessly as possible, but the process can be lengthy, so you'll need to be patient. It typically takes 30 days for PayPal to dispute the chargeback, and it may take your buyer's credit card company up to 75 days to resolve a chargeback and come to a final decision.

We can also help you reduce the risk of receiving chargebacks in the future.

Chargeback Coverage with PayPal Dispute Resolution

PayPal may protect you against any future claim, chargeback or bank reversal the buyer files in relation to that particular transaction. To get the protection, you must honor the agreements you made with the buyer during the dispute resolution process. But we won't be able to offer protection if the claim has not been resolved by the time the chargeback is received

guitarwes

I've wondered this also as the seller may potentially be helpless depending on the decision. It doesn't say it in the policy but I wonder if Paypal sends the buyer a notification to return the purchased items when the chargeback filed or after the dispute has been opened?

BAJJERFAN

Have you asked PayPal about it?

piecesofme

Have you asked PayPal about it?

Honestly, not being a smart arse, but why would I "ask" them this? If it's not in their written policy that they adhere to as if it is Gods word, why would I ask?
Some people come on here and say what Rep. told them...do I beileve that? I'll be honest, not a word. If it's not in their written policy, they're not going to stray from it and cut you a break. All those stories of them doing so is hear-say. Don't be fooled by that.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Have you asked PayPal about it?

Honestly, not being a smart arse, but why would I "ask" them this? If it's not in their written policy that they adhere to as if it is Gods word, why would I ask?
Some people come on here and say what Rep. told them...do I beileve that? I'll be honest, not a word. If it's not in their written policy, they're not going to stray from it and cut you a break. All those stories of them doing so is hear-say. Don't be fooled by that. >>



If you brought it to their attention, they might revise their policy and include it.

OPA

PayPal claims, unless it's a counterfeit, the item must be returned with a tracking #, before a refund is issued. Just finished talking to them..

derryb

<< <i>Have you asked PayPal about it?

Honestly, not being a smart arse, but why would I "ask" them this? If it's not in their written policy that they adhere to as if it is Gods word, why would I ask?
Some people come on here and say what Rep. told them...do I beileve that? I'll be honest, not a word. If it's not in their written policy, they're not going to stray from it and cut you a break. All those stories of them doing so is hear-say. Don't be fooled by that. >>


Maybe it's in their refund policy or somewhere else that discusses refunds/returns.

piecesofme

PayPal claims, unless it's a counterfeit, the item must be returned with a tracking #, before a refund is issued. Just finished talking to them

I'm hard-headed. Until I see it in black & white in one of their written policies, I have trouble believing they would do that. Like I said, talking to a Rep. is one thing, seeing it as fact in a written policy is another.
I have provided their exact written policy, step by step, for chargebacks and it makes no mention of the seller being able to recover the item...broken, damaged or allegedly fake, or in GOOD shape for that matter. What happens to the item then? It appears the buyer would be refunded in full AND get to keep the item, which could be as genuine as the day is long.

rawteam1

If as you say it's not specifically in what u read,
Then legally if its not addressed specifically...
then it is already presumed, legally, that the seller will get item(s) returned...

derryb

this is one of the very reasons why your paypal funds should be immediately tranferred to your bank account as soon as they are available. If a seller loses a chargeback dispute, paypal is going to first attempt to recover the funds from the seller's paypal account. If the funds are not there paypal is going to demand they be put there. If the disputed item has not yet been returned to the seller, the seller's reply to paypal's request for return of the money is simple: "Get me my merchandise and I'll give you back the money I collected for it."

Amigo

I don't know what their written policy is. I do have two examples of my experiences in the last several mths.

1- Auction with a zero feedback seller with bullion. The sales price was slightly less than $200. It was wholly misrepresented what I rec'vd. Ebay immediately refunded me and said I did not have to return it. In my opinion the value was less than 20 dollars. I returned it anyway at my expense.

2- A BIN for bullion, in range of $3700 from seller with 3-400 feedback. They sent me silver plated junk. Seller transferred paypal funds out of acct. Ebay told me not to return item until I was reimbursed. Seller a week later transferred funds and got me paid. I was then instructed thru Ebay to return item at my cost. I refused unless Seller sent me the funds to send it back insured for my refund amount. Went round and round a couple times with Ebay ....... Ebay finally insisted Seller to ship me the funds before I returned item.

My thoughts are based upon the above, that it depends on Seller's Ebay relationship and supposed value of item. Probably based more on shoot from the hip decisions rather than a black and white issue.

I haven't sold on Ebay for years, only a ton of buying. I'd be too scared to sell bullion on the Bay personally. The whole system is geared to favor the buyers, thats' why I only buy.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I don't know what their written policy is. I do have two examples of my experiences in the last several mths.

1- Auction with a zero feedback seller with bullion. The sales price was slightly less than $200. It was wholly misrepresented what I rec'vd. Ebay immediately refunded me and said I did not have to return it. In my opinion the value was less than 20 dollars. I returned it anyway at my expense.

2- A BIN for bullion, in range of $3700 from seller with 3-400 feedback. They sent me silver plated junk. Seller transferred paypal funds out of acct. Ebay told me not to return item until I was reimbursed. Seller a week later transferred funds and got me paid. I was then instructed thru Ebay to return item at my cost. I refused unless Seller sent me the funds to send it back insured for my refund amount. Went round and round a couple times with Ebay ....... Ebay finally insisted Seller to ship me the funds before I returned item.

My thoughts are based upon the above, that it depends on Seller's Ebay relationship and supposed value of item. Probably based more on shoot from the hip decisions rather than a black and white issue.

I haven't sold on Ebay for years, only a ton of buying. I'd be too scared to sell bullion on the Bay personally. The whole system is geared to favor the buyers, thats' why I only buy. >>



So who is it preferred to deal with, PP or eBay? The OP was about PP.

derryb

I don't think ebay has direct access to paypal money. I always file through paypal since they control the money, and always expedite by doing it on the phone where normally paypal will skip the claim step and open it directly as a dispute. Never had a problem with a dispute as a buyer, never had a claim as a seller.

Amigo noted he hasn't sold on ebay in years, so it's likely changes have occurred since his experiences.

guitarwes

<< <i>this is one of the very reasons why your paypal funds should be immediately tranferred to your bank account as soon as they are available. If a seller loses a chargeback dispute, paypal is going to first attempt to recover the funds from the seller's paypal account. If the funds are not there paypal is going to demand they be put there. If the disputed item has not yet been returned to the seller, the seller's reply to paypal's request for return of the money is simple: "Get me my merchandise and I'll give you back the money I collected for it." >>



Then they can just dig in out of your bank account or CC that's on file, can't they?

derryb

<< <i>

<< <i>this is one of the very reasons why your paypal funds should be immediately tranferred to your bank account as soon as they are available. If a seller loses a chargeback dispute, paypal is going to first attempt to recover the funds from the seller's paypal account. If the funds are not there paypal is going to demand they be put there. If the disputed item has not yet been returned to the seller, the seller's reply to paypal's request for return of the money is simple: "Get me my merchandise and I'll give you back the money I collected for it." >>



Then they can just dig in out of your bank account or CC that's on file, can't they? >>


Nope, that is called theft or unauthorzied CC charge. You never gave them permission to do so and the only exception is that you did pre-authorize payment of ebay fees with your CC or bank account. You did agree to pay paypal money you owe them, but never authorized them to take it.

piecesofme

You did agree to pay paypal money you owe them, but never authorized them to take it

This is correct. If you have any funds in your PAYPAL account and a chargeback is filed against you, those funds will be frozen at a minimum. If you lose the case, those funds are then gone, say bye bye.
Now if you have a zero balance in your Paypal account and a chargeback is filed, and you lose, Paypal will file a claim with the CC you have on file, and you will most likely be s.o.l. at that point too. But to answer the question, Paypal cannot take the money from the credit card you have on file, but they will file a claim which you will lose.

I always immediately, and I mean immediately initiate a funds transfer when money has been deposited into my PP account.

Same should go if your PP account is funded with a Bank account, but I am not 100% certain. They will file a claim with the CC company, and I imagine they would do the same if your PP account is funded with a Bank account, but that's speculation on my part.

derryb

paypal does not file claims against CC to get money you owe them. They must go through legal proceedings to force the money from you. Because there was no initial charge to the CC for the money you owe PP, CC companies will not hand over money in this case. it is a legal issue between the two parties that does not involve the CC company. Disputes between two parties over money has nothing to do with a CC unless a CC was involved with the dispute. Otherwise lawyers would be out of business.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>
1- Auction with a zero feedback seller with bullion. The sales price was slightly less than $200. It was wholly misrepresented what I rec'vd. Ebay immediately refunded me and said I did not have to return it. In my opinion the value was less than 20 dollars. I returned it anyway at my expense.

>>



So did eBay refund your money out of their pocket? I assume they did because there is no way that I know of to pay thru eBay.

FWIW I think I've sold my last item on eBay too.

piecesofme

So did eBay refund your money out of their pocket? I assume they did because there is no way that I know of to pay thru eBay

As derryb stated, Amigo said he ahsn't sold on eBay in quite some tme, the policy may be different now.

paypal does not file claims against CC to get money you owe them. They must go through legal proceedings to force the money from you

Well I don't know about that. I'll use my own words against myself LOL and say...that's not what a PP Rep. told me when I discussed this specific possibility. I was told they would file a claim against the CC company if I had a zero balance in my PP account and lost a chargeback. That's word for word.
I'm sure we could find the answer to this if we took the time to scroll thru PP's lenghty T&C. Currently I dont have time for that, that's why I asked the specific question of an PP Rep.
They seem to leave alot of details out there for debate, dare I say possibly because, they want you to be confused in such matter

derryb

PP can file all the claims they want against a CC for money you PP, but any CC in their right mind is not going to charge your credit card to resolve a legal dispute that does not involve them. If they did, my lawyer would now have two case to pursue on my behalf.

piecesofme

PP can file all the claims they want against a CC for money you PP, but any CC in their right mind is not going to charge your credit card to resolve a legal dispute that does not involve them. If they did, my lawyer would now have two case to pursue on my behalf.

What you say makes perfect sense, but as we know in these times, alot of things don't. Can you provide a link or c&p exact wording from where you're getting that from please?

derryb

<< <i>PP can file all the claims they want against a CC for money you PP, but any CC in their right mind is not going to charge your credit card to resolve a legal dispute that does not involve them. If they did, my lawyer would now have two case to pursue on my behalf.

What you say makes perfect sense, but as we know in these times, alot of things don't. Can you provide a link or c&p exact wording from where you're getting that from please? >>


Page 38 of "Common Sense."

Amigo

To Clarify my two experiences.

I had only contacted Ebay. My assumption is that Ebay wags the paypal tail since the facts of the auction rules whom is responsible in any transaction. I don't see paypal over-ruling an Ebay Auction of facts simply because they hold the money. Both my 2 exp's were within the last year.

I also wanted a record with Ebay about the 2 sellers trying to rip me for their consideration in evoking their ID's. The 0 feedback seller probably didn't know what they were selling but I thought it appropriate that Ebay should consider it. OTH, the established seller I have no doubt at all that they were thieves trying to rip someone naive by taking advantage of their feedback and selling mostly legitimate items. They did everything they could to misrepresent the item I purchased. It was over 100 ozt silver. As far as I know, that Seller rec'vd no consequences for an attemp at outright fraud. Still, paypal would prolly never had made a comment on Seller's record, hopefully Ebay can dig it out of the history if other buyer's experience the same thing with Seller, who knows !!!

Ebay directed paypal to return my funds immediately in both cases without even consulting with Seller, I assume partly based on my Ebay record, again who knows !!! ....... It was Ebay telling me I didn't have to return the $200 items but I just didn't feel right not returning it, also Ebay that told me not to return the $3700 items until I was reimbursed. I didn't have any contact at all with paypal. I always figured as a Buyer that the facts of the auction ruled the right of pay or refunds. I can see however that as a Seller, they would be most concerned about the funds and therefore contact only paypal. In any case, I don't see how Paypal is going to make a decision regards money without making a determination based on the actual Ebay Auction.

So to sum it up. I don't have Sellers exp over the last few yrs, nor do I have exp directly with paypal. Maybe I should start a separate thread about Buyer/ Ebay instead of commenting on the OP Seller/paypal thread LOL

derryb

Thanks Amigo. We all hope to learn from the posted experiences of others.

piecesofme

Thanks Amigo. We all hope to learn from the posted experiences of others.

and I apologize if i've rubbed anyone the wrong way talking about this. It's just something that is soooo not right that it really po's me off that Paypal allows this and there is even a possiblity of it happening.

taxmad

I bought a ounce of gold recently and based on the way the sale went down I had a bad feeling about it. When the package came (Priority Mail - signature confirmation - no insurance) I opened it in front of the carrier. It was not gold but a worthless coin. I immediately initiated a claim on the PayPal website and was able to escalate it at the same time. Then the joy began. You now get to deal with a call center in India. I had the carrier write up a statement and I sent it in. They then wanted a police report - which is not going to happen as the police will direct you to the post office. So then they told me to file a claim with ic3.gov. Did that and was refunded right after I uploaded the form. It took 13 days from package receipt to refund. I was not required to return the package.

The seller did contest and respond. He claimed it was stolen at the post office. I argued with PayPal that is between him and USPS - not my problem. I don't think he ever sent the gold - what carrier would take a gold coin and replace the now empty package with a smaller package of worthless coins? I got a call from PayPal a week later asking me to return the package - I agreed. I was told this was voluntarily and I was under no obligation to return the item. I have tried to figure out why he wanted it - my guess is if he is contacted by law enforcement he wants the package back so he can open it. If I still had it and law enforcement takes it and dusts for prints, he would have a hard time explaining why his prints are on a package he claims he never touched.

I quite selling on eBay a couple of years ago - and with this fiasco I am done buying anything of value.

dontippet

<< <i>I don't know what their written policy is. I do have two examples of my experiences in the last several mths.

1- Auction with a zero feedback seller with bullion. The sales price was slightly less than $200. It was wholly misrepresented what I rec'vd. Ebay immediately refunded me and said I did not have to return it. In my opinion the value was less than 20 dollars. I returned it anyway at my expense.

2- A BIN for bullion, in range of $3700 from seller with 3-400 feedback. They sent me silver plated junk. Seller transferred paypal funds out of acct. Ebay told me not to return item until I was reimbursed. Seller a week later transferred funds and got me paid. I was then instructed thru Ebay to return item at my cost. I refused unless Seller sent me the funds to send it back insured for my refund amount. Went round and round a couple times with Ebay ....... Ebay finally insisted Seller to ship me the funds before I returned item.

My thoughts are based upon the above, that it depends on Seller's Ebay relationship and supposed value of item. Probably based more on shoot from the hip decisions rather than a black and white issue.

I haven't sold on Ebay for years, only a ton of buying. I'd be too scared to sell bullion on the Bay personally. The whole system is geared to favor the buyers, thats' why I only buy. >>




I'm surprised by your example #1. I've been sent an empty wrapper before, and ebay made me "return the item" before I would be issued a refund. Mind you, there was no item, only an empty wrapper inside. I promptly returned the wrapper and was promptly given a full refund. Your example must have been by a seller that had a history of doing this and ebay was just giving automatic refunds out. I think I had that happen with a buyer once. He was selling multiples of an item. After 24 hours after payment it was close that I wasn't going to get my item based on his actions. I believe ebay gave an automatic refund without me having to wait to possibly receive the item.

derryb

Here's a new one on me:

Wife went to sell her first item with her ebay account. Before it would allow her to list she got this message:

"It looks like you don't have a reimbursement payment method on file with us. To complete your listing, please add a payment method. This payment method will be charged the amount due to eBay when we’ve refunded a buyer for cases brought under our Buyer Protection Policy.

You’re placing an automatic payment method on file to pay for the following:
• Reimbursements for claims under eBay's Buyer Protection Policy
The policy generally covers buyers if an item they purchase is not as described or doesn't arrive. If eBay pays the buyer up to the full purchase price plus original shipping costs for claims covered under eBay's Buyer Protection Policy, we'll charge this amount using the payment method you select below. Learn more about what eBay Buyer Protection means for sellers.
By choosing a payment method below, you authorize eBay to collect eBay Buyer Protection Reimbursements. You can change your payment method by going to My eBay.
eBay may charge the payment method you select on a one-time, sporadic, or recurring basis. You can always change your selected payment method in My eBay or cancel your automatic payment method by contacting us"

Looks like they now want advance authorization to hit your bank or credit card in the event you lose a claim and fail to refund the buyer before they will let you list. Not sure if this if for first time listers only or also affects existing sellers. I haven't listed for a while with my account

OPA

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't know what their written policy is. I do have two examples of my experiences in the last several mths.

1- Auction with a zero feedback seller with bullion. The sales price was slightly less than $200. It was wholly misrepresented what I rec'vd. Ebay immediately refunded me and said I did not have to return it. In my opinion the value was less than 20 dollars. I returned it anyway at my expense.

2- A BIN for bullion, in range of $3700 from seller with 3-400 feedback. They sent me silver plated junk. Seller transferred paypal funds out of acct. Ebay told me not to return item until I was reimbursed. Seller a week later transferred funds and got me paid. I was then instructed thru Ebay to return item at my cost. I refused unless Seller sent me the funds to send it back insured for my refund amount. Went round and round a couple times with Ebay ....... Ebay finally insisted Seller to ship me the funds before I returned item.

My thoughts are based upon the above, that it depends on Seller's Ebay relationship and supposed value of item. Probably based more on shoot from the hip decisions rather than a black and white issue.

I haven't sold on Ebay for years, only a ton of buying. I'd be too scared to sell bullion on the Bay personally. The whole system is geared to favor the buyers, thats' why I only buy. >>




I'm surprised by your example #1. I've been sent an empty wrapper before, and ebay made me "return the item" before I would be issued a refund. Mind you, there was no item, only an empty wrapper inside. I promptly returned the wrapper and was promptly given a full refund. Your example must have been by a seller that had a history of doing this and ebay was just giving automatic refunds out. I think I had that happen with a buyer once. He was selling multiples of an item. After 24 hours after payment it was close that I wasn't going to get my item based on his actions. I believe ebay gave an automatic refund without me having to wait to possibly receive the item. >>



Yes, misrepresenting plated junk as .999 precious metal and if it is listed in the either gold or silver bullion category, will prompt eBay to force a refund w/o you having to return the item first. Counterfeit and no longer allowed replica mini coins may also get that same treatment.

piecesofme

Looks like they now want advance authorization to hit your bank or credit card in the event you lose a claim and fail to refund the buyer before they will let you list. Not sure if this if for first time listers only or also affects existing sellers. I haven't listed for a while with my account

I would be willing to bet (WHOA! I better change that), be willing to say that there was an update at some point for all users. This isn't something they're going to "grandfather" anyone on.