For less than the price of a tank of gas, you too can be a slumlord! >>
Your late to the game, my little nest egg other than obw rolls in case I ever get laid off (which shall be soon), was to buy up tons of real estate, and facebook. well fb paid off. I invested money into land in two major areas, Russia and the middle east, I then started investing with old college roommates into a serious of homes, and businesses in the great city of detroit. Havent paid more than 5k for a completely functioning, non-dilipated home, rent ready. Also have about 5 liquor stores, with a manager running them. The money flows in constantly, little to no investment, decent amount of risk, its safer than the stock market with better returns... Constant positive cash flow.
Looking forward to learning more about coins from fellow well respected numismatists
Corporations teamed with corrupt politicians do as much damage as unions .
I remember hearing stories about neighborhoods being knocked down to build GM factories and people being forced out of their houses. The Poletown takings were in the news a lot. Houses knocked down to build factories and 1000's of "jobs" promised to convince the voters in other areas to not raise a stink.
GM for a long time was a huge corporation with lots of political clout but it has been a terribly run business for decades . Why do towns and cities lap up all these promises of gains from corporations ?
Good old fashioned crony capitalism and corrupt governments trump private sector unions I think.
Municipalities all have something in common -- unions
And also a fiat dollar. >>
Interesting article. He recognizes either/or fallacy, but that doesn't mean every time either/or is offered - that's it's fallacious. He himself reasons either/or in the Detroit situation re: investors and interest rates.
Just because he wants to know more information and ask more questions doesn't mean he moved from reptilian to critical thinking (plus, using his own assumptions, there are more than two levels of thinking besides reptilian and critical (either reptilian OR critical thinking)--but he doesn't probe this. He fails to rise above his own criticism.
The real kicker though is his assumption, "Nothing is absolute." He wrote it twice. True, not all things are black:white and eitherr, i.e. there are gray areas, but I bet he'd put up a fuss real fast re: checking account balance if we applied the assertion there Not everything is gray or on a continuum; there are absolutes.
Plus, simple logic applied to "Nothing is absolute" shows that it is a self-defeating statement. If NOTHING is absolute, then the statement itself "nothing is absolute" is not absolute -- therefore, false; that is, some things are absolute: like one's checking acct balance, or cold-blooded murder, human on human, for sport, is absolutely wrong.
Otherwise, it was an interesting article in his attempt to connect the dots of those three scenarious to fiat currency.
Do your best to avoid circular arguments, as it will help you reason better, because better reasoning is often a result of avoiding circular arguments.
I think it's reasonable that with interest rates and the fiat currencies hijacked, there's really nothing out there to control debt or help properly price the cost of investment capital. Therefore, we've come to a point of nearly unlimited risks being taken, gross capital misallocation, and no accountability. It ends badly. Detroit was just one of the early birds. While it took a parade of individuals to make all this happen, it started with fiat currency.
<< <i>Municipalities all have something in common -- unions >>
City Managers and County CEO's and their administrative staffs are just as complicit as they all feed from the same pie. Actually for them to receive the huge retirements they receive they know they must throw bones to the unions, so when the unions get their yard the Managers get their mile.
To put this on the backs of unions is ridiculous. When the head is sick and greedy, then the whole is sick, and becomes greedy as well.
NumbersUsa, FairUs, Alipac, CapsWeb, and TeamAmericaPac
Detroit should honor their pension obligations. Decades of profligate expenditures including spending on wages and pensions account for their current situation. They are defaulting on their obligations under the guise of the bankruptcy laws. Many will not be paid what they are due - perhaps including those holding pension promises.
Detroit's intended solution likely includes extorting money from the rest of the nation to pay for their follies. No doubt they expect the cooperation of President Urkel to inject someone else's money.
Expecting others to pay for Detriot's debts is the unAmerican part of whats coming.
How about we pay their pensions from the pensions of those that made the unrealistic pension promises.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Believing you are owed retirement funds and health benefits for longer than you actually work, on the peoples teet, is part of the problem. The folks I worked with who were reitrement age were gaming the system, getting a fat OT year or a wink wink final year promotion to count as the basis of their retirement, retiring at 50-55 (after 20-30 yrs), and expecting to get 60%+ of that inflated salary for 30-40 or more years (longer than they worked) til death. That's the ponzi, and if anyone believes in it and it being sustainable with a whopping 4% pension fund paycheck deduction then math, logic, economics, and ethics have all failed them in various degrees and forms.
If the Babyboomers had paid 10 percent from the get go, we wouldn't be in this mess. It's easy to make promises you don't have to act on for 30 years.
Please enlighten me. Since I've paid a helluva lot more than 10% into the system every year for the past 47 years, I'm really not sure what you're talking about. I made no promises to the government unions, nor have I benefited from government handouts. All I've ever done is pay.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I believe, a promise is a promise! I ain't talking about math,logic, or sustainability. I'm talking about morals & principle! Look at other side of the fence. Bankruptcy run amuck is what will happen if Detroit-defaults on they obligations.
How come none of the pensioners to be, and especially their public sector union "leadership," questioned "will the money be there?"
default is the ultimate fix when there is no more money. Maybe all parties will have learned something next time the unions want to demand more. The problem with public sector unions is that they face no competition in the labor market and they are in a position to hold taxpayers hostage. The hostage crisis is now coming to a horrible end - horrible for the hostage takers.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I believe, a promise is a promise! I ain't talking about math,logic, or sustainability. I'm talking about morals & principle! Look at other side of the fence. Bankruptcy run amuck is what will happen if Detroit-defaults on they obligations. >>
If I promise to put you on a rocket ship to the moon will you believe that? Where were the morals and principles of those fluffing up the union contracts WELL beyond any fathomable level of sustainability on a strongarm promise deal based off lofty projections instead of financial facts? Honor among theives huh.
Sorry, but I hope it all implodes so folks can actually grasp the actions/consequences concept...and Detroit is my claimed hometown (generous small town driving distance applied).
<< <i>If the Babyboomers had paid 10 percent from the get go, we wouldn't be in this mess. It's easy to make promises you don't have to act on for 30 years.
Please enlighten me. Since I've paid a helluva lot more than 10% into the system every year for the past 47 years, I'm really not sure what you're talking about. I made no promises to the government unions, nor have I benefited from government handouts. All I've ever done is pay. >>
Jmski. I was referring to municipal union employees. If they had paid 10 percent like today's employees do, they would have a funded pension.
<< <i>Why not just change all municipal employee pensions from DB to DC plans? >>
why not have them contribute more of their pay to their retirement. Give them a choice - more now or more later.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I was referring to municipal union employees. If they had paid 10 percent like today's employees do, they would have a funded pension.
You stated the problem as if it were being created exclusively by baby boomers. I won't go so far as to say that many baby boomers haven't shirked their responsibilities and lived high on the hog well beyond their means for decades, but just as many baby boomers have taken on plenty of responsibilities that they've never agreed to. The problems are structural, and I agree with derryb that the politicians who granted the excessive deals should be forced to pay those fat union pensions out of their own retirements. That might help solve the problem of malfeasance in government, going forward.
Why not just change all municipal employee pensions from DB to DC plans?
Because the municipal employee unions don't want to actually pay for their own stuff.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I believe, a promise is a promise! I ain't talking about math,logic, or sustainability. I'm talking about morals & principle! Look at other side of the fence. Bankruptcy run amuck is what will happen if Detroit-defaults on they obligations. >>
<< <i>Why not just change all municipal employee pensions from DB to DC plans? >>
why not have them contribute more of their pay to their retirement. Give them a choice - more now or more later. >>
Higher than 10 percent? What do you do charge 12 or 14 percent for 32 years and give them 78 percent when they retire??? Take that same 12 to 14 percent and put it in a 401k for 32 years and lets see who makes out better.
I'm sure they would jump at the chance to get in on a DC plan
Edited to add.
Derry. I'm basing this off of my local criteria.
Full benefit of 78 percent paid out after 32 years of service and 60 years of age. Deductions of 10 percent plus 2 percent to Medicare. Pension is determined by base pay only. (This eliminates people padding their last few years with overtime like Dr Buster spoke of)
Maybe my community is fiscally more responsible than others have seen.
<< <i>I was referring to municipal union employees. If they had paid 10 percent like today's employees do, they would have a funded pension.
You stated the problem as if it were being created exclusively by baby boomers. I won't go so far as to say that many baby boomers haven't shirked their responsibilities and lived high on the hog well beyond their means for decades, but just as many baby boomers have taken on plenty of responsibilities that they've never agreed to. The problems are structural, and I agree with derryb that the politicians who granted the excessive deals should be forced to pay those fat union pensions out of their own retirements. That might help solve the problem of malfeasance in government, going forward.
Why not just change all municipal employee pensions from DB to DC plans?
Because the municipal employee unions don't want to actually pay for their own stuff. >>
What do you mean? They are paying for the guys who are now retired.
What do you mean? They are paying for the guys who are now retired.
That's exactly the point. The guys who retired were over-promised and the shortfall happens now. In St. Louis, the municipal unions are raising a stink simply because the promised future benefits are being cut back and the union members are being asked to contribute a bit more to their own future retirements.
Entitlements breed more demand for more and bigger entitlements. It works that way everywhere. Sooner or later, you run out of other peoples' money. (I heard that somewhere).
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
"(The city emergency manager, bankruptcy lawyer Kevyn) Orr agreed to this derivatives payoff two days before declaring bankruptcy against pensions, retiree health funds, and other general creditors, giving it first priority outside the bankruptcy court."
the banks will always feed first at the trough.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Detroit's budget deficit is believed to be more than $380 million. It's total long-term debt is more than $14 billion and could be between $17 billion and $20 billion. If this amount of underwater dollars can ruin a large US city, it speaks volumes about the seriousness of the FED's monthly $85 billion bailout of the US government and mortgage industry. I do not support any federal bailout of any entity, but the FED could easily make Detroit debt free using only six days worth of dollars it is pumping continuously, month after month, into the federal bailout. Make no mistake, QE is a bailout on a massive scale. Contrary to popular TVtalk, the US economy is (as demonstrated by FED injections) in quite serious condition and on indefinite life support. Detroit's fiscal problems are peanuts.
This is why I stack PMs regardless of what the PM futures market paper promise traders say they are worth. The difference between economic reality in Detroit and economic reality in Washington boils down to a printing press. I buy metal insurance because I choose not to put my faith in that printing press. The PM naysayers are free to do as they choose.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Its very interesting the difference of opinions among generations in this thread. Its like those who feel entitled vs those who will have to pay.
If this country is going to make changes, then the first change is to lower the average age of our Wash DC representatives from 65 to 45. >>
How could a person hone their level of corruption to that level in only 45 short years?
Interesting read. Having been raised there by a solid UAW Ford family I say this. I escaped 22 years ago and avoid buying anything union made like it were the bubonic plague. I refuse to contribute to the " gimme / I am owed" crowd. Pay the copsand firefighters and let the rest of those taxpayer sucking klingons rot.
Comments
<< <i>Nine homes currently selling for $100 or less in Detroit, including three for sale at $1 each.
For less than the price of a tank of gas, you too can be a slumlord!
Your late to the game, my little nest egg other than obw rolls in case I ever get laid off (which shall be soon), was to buy up tons of real estate, and facebook. well fb paid off. I invested money into land in two major areas, Russia and the middle east, I then started investing with old college roommates into a serious of homes, and businesses in the great city of detroit.
Havent paid more than 5k for a completely functioning, non-dilipated home, rent ready. Also have about 5 liquor stores, with a manager running them. The money flows in constantly, little to no investment, decent amount of risk, its safer than the stock market with better returns... Constant positive cash flow.
Corporations teamed with corrupt politicians do as much damage as unions .
I remember hearing stories about neighborhoods being knocked down to build GM factories and people being forced out of their houses. The Poletown takings were in the news a lot. Houses knocked down to build factories and 1000's of "jobs" promised to convince the voters in other areas to not raise a stink.
GM for a long time was a huge corporation with lots of political clout but it has been a terribly run business for decades . Why do towns and cities lap up all these promises of gains from corporations ?
Good old fashioned crony capitalism and corrupt governments trump private sector unions I think.
Unions got too greedy and the corporations left town . The unions then took over government.
There once was a real need for unions but now anything unions touch, they bleed dry.
There would be no shortage of services if workers were paid to work rather than 25 years of retirement at 55.
Municipalities all have something in common -- unions
And also a fiat dollar.
<< <i>Here's one lawyer who has their own version of why Detroit failed
Municipalities all have something in common -- unions
And also a fiat dollar.
Interesting article. He recognizes either/or fallacy, but that doesn't mean every time either/or is offered - that's it's fallacious. He himself reasons either/or in the Detroit situation re: investors and interest rates.
Just because he wants to know more information and ask more questions doesn't mean he moved from reptilian to critical thinking (plus, using his own assumptions, there are more than two levels of thinking besides reptilian and critical (either reptilian OR critical thinking)--but he doesn't probe this. He fails to rise above his own criticism.
The real kicker though is his assumption, "Nothing is absolute." He wrote it twice. True, not all things are black:white and either
Plus, simple logic applied to "Nothing is absolute" shows that it is a self-defeating statement. If NOTHING is absolute, then the statement itself "nothing is absolute" is not absolute -- therefore, false; that is, some things are absolute: like one's checking acct balance, or cold-blooded murder, human on human, for sport, is absolutely wrong.
Otherwise, it was an interesting article in his attempt to connect the dots of those three scenarious to fiat currency.
Therefore, we've come to a point of nearly unlimited risks being taken, gross capital misallocation, and no accountability. It ends badly. Detroit was just one of the early birds. While
it took a parade of individuals to make all this happen, it started with fiat currency.
<< <i>Municipalities all have something in common -- unions >>
City Managers and County CEO's and their administrative staffs are just as complicit as they all feed from the same pie. Actually for them to receive the
huge retirements they receive they know they must throw bones to the unions, so when the unions get their yard the Managers get their mile.
To put this on the backs of unions is ridiculous. When the head is sick and greedy, then the whole is sick, and becomes greedy as well.
I do not see how anyone can NOT see this a unAmerican!
Will your Pension Dissappear!
<< <i>Promise a man a good job & retirement for loyal years of work~ then cut his pension at retirement age
I do not see how anyone can NOT see this a unAmerican!
Will your Pension Dissappear! >>
Detroit should honor their pension obligations. Decades of profligate expenditures including spending on wages and pensions account for their current situation. They are defaulting on their obligations under the guise of the bankruptcy laws. Many will not be paid what they are due - perhaps including those holding pension promises.
Detroit's intended solution likely includes extorting money from the rest of the nation to pay for their follies. No doubt they expect the cooperation of President Urkel to inject someone else's money.
Expecting others to pay for Detriot's debts is the unAmerican part of whats coming.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>Promise a man a good job & retirement for loyal years of work~ then cut his pension at retirement age
I do not see how anyone can NOT see this a unAmerican!
Will your Pension Dissappear! >>
How about we pay their pensions from the pensions of those that made the unrealistic pension promises.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
<< <i>Promise a man a good job & retirement for loyal years of work~ then cut his pension at retirement age
I do not see how anyone can NOT see this a unAmerican!
Will your Pension Dissappear! >>
I had a gov/state pension.
Believing you are owed retirement funds and health benefits for longer than you actually work, on the peoples teet, is part of the problem. The folks I worked with who were reitrement age were gaming the system, getting a fat OT year or a wink wink final year promotion to count as the basis of their retirement, retiring at 50-55 (after 20-30 yrs), and expecting to get 60%+ of that inflated salary for 30-40 or more years (longer than they worked) til death. That's the ponzi, and if anyone believes in it and it being sustainable with a whopping 4% pension fund paycheck deduction then math, logic, economics, and ethics have all failed them in various degrees and forms.
Please enlighten me. Since I've paid a helluva lot more than 10% into the system every year for the past 47 years, I'm really not sure what you're talking about. I made no promises to the government unions, nor have I benefited from government handouts. All I've ever done is pay.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Promise a man a good job & retirement for loyal years of work~ then cut his pension at retirement age
I do not see how anyone can NOT see this a unAmerican!
Will your Pension Dissappear! >>
I believe, a promise is a promise! I ain't talking about math,logic, or sustainability. I'm talking about morals & principle! Look at other side of the fence. Bankruptcy run amuck is what will happen if Detroit-defaults on they obligations.
default is the ultimate fix when there is no more money. Maybe all parties will have learned something next time the unions want to demand more. The problem with public sector unions is that they face no competition in the labor market and they are in a position to hold taxpayers hostage. The hostage crisis is now coming to a horrible end - horrible for the hostage takers.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>Promise a man a good job & retirement for loyal years of work~ then cut his pension at retirement age
I do not see how anyone can NOT see this a unAmerican!
Will your Pension Dissappear! >>
I believe, a promise is a promise! I ain't talking about math,logic, or sustainability. I'm talking about morals & principle! Look at other side of the fence. Bankruptcy run amuck is what will happen if Detroit-defaults on they obligations. >>
If I promise to put you on a rocket ship to the moon will you believe that? Where were the morals and principles of those fluffing up the union contracts WELL beyond any fathomable level of sustainability on a strongarm promise deal based off lofty projections instead of financial facts? Honor among theives huh.
Sorry, but I hope it all implodes so folks can actually grasp the actions/consequences concept...and Detroit is my claimed hometown (generous small town driving distance applied).
All the states are trying to increase revenue and they are doing some crazy things. Has anyone here been impacted by Maryland's "rain tax"
outrage over rain tax
<< <i>If the Babyboomers had paid 10 percent from the get go, we wouldn't be in this mess. It's easy to make promises you don't have to act on for 30 years.
Please enlighten me. Since I've paid a helluva lot more than 10% into the system every year for the past 47 years, I'm really not sure what you're talking about. I made no promises to the government unions, nor have I benefited from government handouts. All I've ever done is pay. >>
Jmski. I was referring to municipal union employees. If they had paid 10 percent like today's employees do, they would have a funded pension.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
<< <i>Why not just change all municipal employee pensions from DB to DC plans? >>
why not have them contribute more of their pay to their retirement. Give them a choice - more now or more later.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
You stated the problem as if it were being created exclusively by baby boomers. I won't go so far as to say that many baby boomers haven't shirked their responsibilities and lived high on the hog well beyond their means for decades, but just as many baby boomers have taken on plenty of responsibilities that they've never agreed to. The problems are structural, and I agree with derryb that the politicians who granted the excessive deals should be forced to pay those fat union pensions out of their own retirements. That might help solve the problem of malfeasance in government, going forward.
Why not just change all municipal employee pensions from DB to DC plans?
Because the municipal employee unions don't want to actually pay for their own stuff.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Promise a man a good job & retirement for loyal years of work~ then cut his pension at retirement age
I do not see how anyone can NOT see this a unAmerican!
Will your Pension Dissappear! >>
I believe, a promise is a promise! I ain't talking about math,logic, or sustainability. I'm talking about morals & principle! Look at other side of the fence. Bankruptcy run amuck is what will happen if Detroit-defaults on they obligations. >>
NM
<< <i>
<< <i>Why not just change all municipal employee pensions from DB to DC plans? >>
why not have them contribute more of their pay to their retirement. Give them a choice - more now or more later. >>
Higher than 10 percent? What do you do charge 12 or 14 percent for 32 years and give them 78 percent when they retire???
Take that same 12 to 14 percent and put it in a 401k for 32 years and lets see who makes out better.
I'm sure they would jump at the chance to get in on a DC plan
Edited to add.
Derry. I'm basing this off of my local criteria.
Full benefit of 78 percent paid out after 32 years of service and 60 years of age.
Deductions of 10 percent plus 2 percent to Medicare.
Pension is determined by base pay only. (This eliminates people padding their last few years with overtime like Dr Buster spoke of)
Maybe my community is fiscally more responsible than others have seen.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
<< <i>I was referring to municipal union employees. If they had paid 10 percent like today's employees do, they would have a funded pension.
You stated the problem as if it were being created exclusively by baby boomers. I won't go so far as to say that many baby boomers haven't shirked their responsibilities and lived high on the hog well beyond their means for decades, but just as many baby boomers have taken on plenty of responsibilities that they've never agreed to. The problems are structural, and I agree with derryb that the politicians who granted the excessive deals should be forced to pay those fat union pensions out of their own retirements. That might help solve the problem of malfeasance in government, going forward.
Why not just change all municipal employee pensions from DB to DC plans?
Because the municipal employee unions don't want to actually pay for their own stuff. >>
What do you mean? They are paying for the guys who are now retired.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
That's exactly the point. The guys who retired were over-promised and the shortfall happens now. In St. Louis, the municipal unions are raising a stink simply because the promised future benefits are being cut back and the union members are being asked to contribute a bit more to their own future retirements.
Entitlements breed more demand for more and bigger entitlements. It works that way everywhere. Sooner or later, you run out of other peoples' money. (I heard that somewhere).
I knew it would happen.
"(The city emergency manager, bankruptcy lawyer Kevyn) Orr agreed to this derivatives payoff two days before declaring bankruptcy against pensions, retiree health funds, and other general creditors, giving it first priority outside the bankruptcy court."
the banks will always feed first at the trough.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>All the states are trying to increase revenue and they are doing some crazy things. Has anyone here been impacted by Maryland's "rain tax"
outrage over rain tax >>
More lunacy from the bluest of the blue.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
This is why I stack PMs regardless of what the PM futures market paper promise traders say they are worth. The difference between economic reality in Detroit and economic reality in Washington boils down to a printing press. I buy metal insurance because I choose not to put my faith in that printing press. The PM naysayers are free to do as they choose.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
If this country is going to make changes, then the first change is to lower the average age of our Wash DC representatives from 65 to 45.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Its very interesting the difference of opinions among generations in this thread. Its like those who feel entitled vs those who will have to pay.
If this country is going to make changes, then the first change is to lower the average age of our Wash DC representatives from 65 to 45. >>
How could a person hone their level of corruption to that level in only 45 short years?
I escaped 22 years ago and avoid buying anything union made like it were the bubonic plague. I refuse to contribute to the " gimme / I am owed" crowd. Pay the copsand firefighters and let the rest of those taxpayer sucking klingons rot.