Two versions of the 1990 Topps USA1 George Bush PRES card confirmed
sportscardtheory
Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭
2 VERSIONS OF H.W. BUSH BASEBALL CARDS CONFIRMED
"The discrepancy came to light when former White House chief of staff and avid baseball card collector John H. Sununu sent some of the 11 cards he was given by the president to Orlando's company to be graded. Experts were caught off-guard because unlike Sununu's cards, none of the others they'd seen had the glossy coating."
Interesting...
"The discrepancy came to light when former White House chief of staff and avid baseball card collector John H. Sununu sent some of the 11 cards he was given by the president to Orlando's company to be graded. Experts were caught off-guard because unlike Sununu's cards, none of the others they'd seen had the glossy coating."
Interesting...
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Comments
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Collecting:
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I would think prices are going to drop.
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<< <i>I remember the debate about whether or not Topps included the card in packs.
I would think prices are going to drop. >>
I agree. These variations create confusion and confusion creates uncertainty
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>I remember the debate about whether or not Topps included the card in packs. I would think prices are going to drop. >>
I am not sure what to think about this cards value. The last auction to close saw a HUGE drop in price, based on previous auctions, assuming the auction is legit. This is actually a card I would like to own, but this information, plus the volatility of the closing prices now, I am waiting.
Last USA#1 to close
132 cards fit on a Topps printing sheet
There were 100 with the coating given to Bush.
Topps' president at the time was given one of the other coated cards on that sheet (and other Topps employees were likely given a copy as well)
There are varying printing shades in the red border on the non-coated versions out there, meaning 2 or more non-coated sheets of these cards were printed at some point.
Based on these facts, there are likely at least 396 of them out there.
Because those backs aren't the backs of his Topps baseball card.
saucywombat@hotmail.com
<< <i>
<< <i>I remember the debate about whether or not Topps included the card in packs. I would think prices are going to drop. >>
I am not sure what to think about this cards value. The last auction to close saw a HUGE drop in price, based on previous auctions, assuming the auction is legit. This is actually a card I would like to own, but this information, plus the volatility of the closing prices now, I am waiting.
Last USA#1 to close >>
I was driving in to work and heard this story on the news radio. I believe that while it is confirmed there are more out there, there also will be more people who hear about the card. I was really surprised it made it on the radio right in between traffic and weather.
Reminds me sometimes how desperate "investors" are in finding scarce cards from the junk wax era.
If you really want a bush card get this one for $1 and save yourself the grief and volatility of that "special edition" card.
Or this one
<< <i>This card and the value it possesses is flat out silly.
Reminds me sometimes how desperate "investors" are in finding scarce cards from the junk wax era.
If you really want a bush card get this one for $1 and save yourself the grief and volatility of that "special edition" card.
Or this one
People like "rare" Topps cards from '86 to '91, the junk Topps era. Even if there were 500 of the Bush's, it would still sell for a lot because there aren't 5 million of them like every other card. You can only have as many master sets of any particular year as the rarest card available from the release.
<< <i>I wonder what the 3 cards are that Pres. Bush is holding in his hand in the photo above?
Because those backs aren't the backs of his Topps baseball card. >>
Saw this on a different forum, it's probably three of these that he traded for three of his;
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder what the 3 cards are that Pres. Bush is holding in his hand in the photo above?
Because those backs aren't the backs of his Topps baseball card. >>
Saw this on a different forum, it's probably three of these that he traded for three of his;
Mystery solved.
saucywombat@hotmail.com
"Art went to work at Topps where he tried every position until his secretary quit, utterly exhausted"
<< <i>
<< <i>I remember the debate about whether or not Topps included the card in packs. I would think prices are going to drop. >>
I am not sure what to think about this cards value. The last auction to close saw a HUGE drop in price, based on previous auctions, assuming the auction is legit. This is actually a card I would like to own, but this information, plus the volatility of the closing prices now, I am waiting.
Last USA#1 to close >>
I would guess the Bush cards that have been available so far will continue dropping. I could see a 'White House Issue' eclipsing previous highs for this card.
<< <i>IMO The cards with the Gloss are the ones to have everything else will drop since they are backdoor scraps. >>
Exactly. This sums this situation up perfectly.
<< <i>
<< <i>IMO The cards with the Gloss are the ones to have everything else will drop since they are backdoor scraps. >>
Exactly. This sums this situation up perfectly. >>
I'm thinking it might be a long while before anyone would see those on the open market.
From the article
"There was an awfully large number of them, and I knew that nobody that George Herbert Walker Bush gave a baseball card to would sell it," he said. "You'd have to kill me to get these out of my cold hands."
<< <i>
<< <i>This card and the value it possesses is flat out silly.
Reminds me sometimes how desperate "investors" are in finding scarce cards from the junk wax era.
If you really want a bush card get this one for $1 and save yourself the grief and volatility of that "special edition" card.
Or this one
People like "rare" Topps cards from '86 to '91, the junk Topps era. Even if there were 500 of the Bush's, it would still sell for a lot because there aren't 5 million of them like every other card. You can only have as many master sets of any particular year as the rarest card available from the release. >>
I thought the card had to be numbered to be part of the set? Or at least released with the set.
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
<< <i>I thought the card had to be numbered to be part of the set? Or at least released with the set. >>
I would think that the Bush card would be part of the 1990 Topps master set. I could be wrong.
<< <i>I think we lost a great contributor on this forum due to a comment he made in this thread. I hope to see MattyC back on here one day. >>
Amen. Really helpful and solid guy and supporter of PSA. Did not know he was banned until now. Hopefully PSA can find it in their hearts to reinstate.
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>I think we lost a great contributor on this forum due to a comment he made in this thread. I hope to see MattyC back on here one day. >>
That's just silly that Matt got banned for an absolutely benign comment. I know where to find him, but come on......
I think the glossy versions would sell for more than the backdoored version - based upon availability alone - but to that extent, these non-glossy cards are still highly collectable and still have very limited availability.
<< <i>I really don't see the value of these dropping due to the findings; they've already cooled some, but the fact of the matter is, the glossy versions aren't available to the general public and are tied up in the hands of people for whom the "value" of the cards goes well beyond what they sell for at open market. The people who own the "real" thing aren't in a position of need to release these cards to market for financial reasons...so they wont be released until a family member does so at some later point.
I think the glossy versions would sell for more than the backdoored version - based upon availability alone - but to that extent, these non-glossy cards are still highly collectable and still have very limited availability. >>
.
100% agreed. This article/discovery does little to devalue the non-glossy (currently available) version. It's still a legitimately-produced Topps rarity. The only thing that will devalue them is the discovery of more or another wave of them hitting ebay like this past year (see: 1990 UD Mike Witt #702). Eventually, glossy versions will hit the market and a premium will definitely be attached to them.
Also, I feel the article strengthens my stance on the rumor of them being found in packs being total bs.
Collecting Robin Ventura and Matt Luke.
The thing that bugs me about this is that yes topps cards are in demand. And yes topps controlls the printing press. And yes we pay money for topps products. But without knowing what exaclty happend it makes me a little nervous buying items like this. Was it only 1 employee that got this stack of non issued Bush cards to the public, or 20 employess that plan to do the same thing when they leave topps. Was it in 1990 when they were made, Why dont they match the same cards given to GWb?
I understand that in this line of bussiness you may buy or get some product just by being around it. But this was an issue not released to the public. And beyond that they are not like the original group. Seems odd, but they are topps product. But Id like to know if topps ok'd them to be made. And why did this one guy get 35 cards worth 1000s each. That would put my thoughts at ease on this topic.
...are not the 70 others rarer???
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That said, even if there are only 264 total, that's an extremely rare Topps "cardboard stock" card.
<< <i>To me, it seems there must be at least 132 of each version. That or Topps destroyed some of them straight off the presses, which seems unlikely.
That said, even if there are only 264 total, that's an extremely rare Topps "cardboard stock" card. >>
Agreed, especially from 1990, I still like the NNOF Thomas RC in this set better though.
<< <i>"100% agreed. This article/discovery does little to devalue the non-glossy (currently available) version. It's still a legitimately-produced Topps rarity."
The thing that bugs me about this is that yes topps cards are in demand. And yes topps controlls the printing press. And yes we pay money for topps products. But without knowing what exaclty happend it makes me a little nervous buying items like this. Was it only 1 employee that got this stack of non issued Bush cards to the public, or 20 employess that plan to do the same thing when they leave topps. Was it in 1990 when they were made, Why dont they match the same cards given to GWb?
I understand that in this line of bussiness you may buy or get some product just by being around it. But this was an issue not released to the public. And beyond that they are not like the original group. Seems odd, but they are topps product. But Id like to know if topps ok'd them to be made. And why did this one guy get 35 cards worth 1000s each. That would put my thoughts at ease on this topic. >>
Considering how few copies of the card ever came up for sale prior to this past year, I'd say it's unlikely that new groups or lots of them will be showing up. And realistically, how many have sold in the recent "wave" of them? 15, 20 different copies, maybe? Anyone with numbers, please feel free to correct me. I have been loosely following the sales over the last year but don't have exact numbers. Point is, that's a tiny amount for a card of this era. Even at their "low" recent sale prices of $999, if there were 20+ Topps employees who had received them as well, we'd have seen hundreds listed by this point. I just don't think this card is going to drop in value because of this discovery. If anything, it will make the sale prices on the eventual glossy "bush-owned" variation considerably higher than these "dull" versions.
On a related note: Two other previously very rare junk era variations have seen massive price decreases over this last year due to the discovery of uncut sheets containing them: 1990 Pro Set Dexter Manley ERR and 1990 Upper Deck Mike Witt ERR. Both are still extremely limited issues for the era but now most of the collectors with the interest in them and the budget to acquire one, have done so by now. Manley's are selling around $300 now! There seems to be 1-2 copies at any given time on ebay, they used to be mythical, fetching between $500-800. Same with the Mike Witts, which are selling as low as $275! As of now, I still believe that the Bush card was produced in much smaller quantities than either of those examples.
Collecting Robin Ventura and Matt Luke.
<< <i>
<< <i>"100% agreed. This article/discovery does little to devalue the non-glossy (currently available) version. It's still a legitimately-produced Topps rarity."
The thing that bugs me about this is that yes topps cards are in demand. And yes topps controlls the printing press. And yes we pay money for topps products. But without knowing what exaclty happend it makes me a little nervous buying items like this. Was it only 1 employee that got this stack of non issued Bush cards to the public, or 20 employess that plan to do the same thing when they leave topps. Was it in 1990 when they were made, Why dont they match the same cards given to GWb?
I understand that in this line of bussiness you may buy or get some product just by being around it. But this was an issue not released to the public. And beyond that they are not like the original group. Seems odd, but they are topps product. But Id like to know if topps ok'd them to be made. And why did this one guy get 35 cards worth 1000s each. That would put my thoughts at ease on this topic. >>
Considering how few copies of the card ever came up for sale prior to this past year, I'd say it's unlikely that new groups or lots of them will be showing up. And realistically, how many have sold in the recent "wave" of them? 15, 20 different copies, maybe? Anyone with numbers, please feel free to correct me. I have been loosely following the sales over the last year but don't have exact numbers. Point is, that's a tiny amount for a card of this era. Even at their "low" recent sale prices of $999, if there were 20+ Topps employees who had received them as well, we'd have seen hundreds listed by this point. I just don't think this card is going to drop in value because of this discovery. If anything, it will make the sale prices on the eventual glossy "bush-owned" variation considerably higher than these "dull" versions.
On a related note: Two other previously very rare junk era variations have seen massive price decreases over this last year due to the discovery of uncut sheets containing them: 1990 Pro Set Dexter Manley ERR and >>
1990 Upper Deck Mike Witt ERR. Both are still extremely limited issues for the era but now most of the collectors with the interest in them and the budget to acquire one, have done so by now. Manley's are selling around $300 now! There seems to be 1-2 copies at any given time on ebay, they used to be mythical, fetching between $500-800. Same with the Mike Witts, which are selling as low as $275! As of now, I still believe that the Bush card was produced in much smaller quantities than either of those examples.
yeah i was crushed by that one, bought for 700 thought it was a steal well whose the dumb one
<< <i>Anyone else find it strange that sheets of these rare cards have shown up with ONLY that card on it? Why on earth would Upper Deck print a single sheets with the Witt variation only? Cards aren't printed that way. They are printed on sheets with different cards on them. The Bush card makes sense because it wasn't printed as part of the set and obviously there were sheets of it at some point or other. But cards like the Witt variation make no logical sense unless they were actually printed at a later date. >>
In 1990, Pro Set had a weird habit of producing "ten-up" sheets of players. Obviously, these were "full" sized sheets that instead of 132 or whatever different players, they had multiples of ten for each player included on a given sheet. The Manley's were not printed any differently than the other cards in the set. The Witt cards were uncut sheets containing other players as well, in fact, the 10 card sheets that were discovered a few years ago and cut up (there's still one on ebay) are, from my understanding, cut from larger 1990 UD sheets. Either way, no full Witt or Manley sheets are known to exist.
Collecting Robin Ventura and Matt Luke.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"100% agreed. This article/discovery does little to devalue the non-glossy (currently available) version. It's still a legitimately-produced Topps rarity."
The thing that bugs me about this is that yes topps cards are in demand. And yes topps controlls the printing press. And yes we pay money for topps products. But without knowing what exaclty happend it makes me a little nervous buying items like this. Was it only 1 employee that got this stack of non issued Bush cards to the public, or 20 employess that plan to do the same thing when they leave topps. Was it in 1990 when they were made, Why dont they match the same cards given to GWb?
I understand that in this line of bussiness you may buy or get some product just by being around it. But this was an issue not released to the public. And beyond that they are not like the original group. Seems odd, but they are topps product. But Id like to know if topps ok'd them to be made. And why did this one guy get 35 cards worth 1000s each. That would put my thoughts at ease on this topic. >>
Considering how few copies of the card ever came up for sale prior to this past year, I'd say it's unlikely that new groups or lots of them will be showing up. And realistically, how many have sold in the recent "wave" of them? 15, 20 different copies, maybe? Anyone with numbers, please feel free to correct me. I have been loosely following the sales over the last year but don't have exact numbers. Point is, that's a tiny amount for a card of this era. Even at their "low" recent sale prices of $999, if there were 20+ Topps employees who had received them as well, we'd have seen hundreds listed by this point. I just don't think this card is going to drop in value because of this discovery. If anything, it will make the sale prices on the eventual glossy "bush-owned" variation considerably higher than these "dull" versions.
On a related note: Two other previously very rare junk era variations have seen massive price decreases over this last year due to the discovery of uncut sheets containing them: 1990 Pro Set Dexter Manley ERR and >>
1990 Upper Deck Mike Witt ERR. Both are still extremely limited issues for the era but now most of the collectors with the interest in them and the budget to acquire one, have done so by now. Manley's are selling around $300 now! There seems to be 1-2 copies at any given time on ebay, they used to be mythical, fetching between $500-800. Same with the Mike Witts, which are selling as low as $275! As of now, I still believe that the Bush card was produced in much smaller quantities than either of those examples.
yeah i was crushed by that one, bought for 700 thought it was a steal well whose the dumb one >>
It's still a very rare item, one of the rarest of pack-issued junk era cards. Provided another supply doesn't pop up anytime soon and more people look to build master sets, the value should stabilize and hopefully increase if see another long stretch without any available. The poorly-listed lot of uncut sheets that the recent influx of Witts came from, I believe, sold for $10!
Collecting Robin Ventura and Matt Luke.
Bad headline
Not saying its true but it's interesting that two people are claiming to have seen these cards in packs....and one claims to have seen it while working at Beckett.
Strange if its true.
Bush thread
Has anyone have a price guide listed for these cards in PSA condition?
<< <i>12 White House issues have been graded and 45 non coated have been graded. I dont believe I have ever seen a White House issue on auction unless I did not look hard enough. >>
I'm pretty sure all the White House issues were personal cards of John Sununu's that were given to him personally by the President. One of the referenced articles very clearly said that he'd never sell any of them.