<< <i>Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Contact the auction house to correct them and see if they are receptive of the information and actually correct the listing. >>
I'm not on LM's research payroll... I'm sure they can afford to buy a few books.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Contact the auction house to correct them and see if they are receptive of the information and actually correct the listing. >>
I'm not on LM's research payroll... I'm sure they can afford to buy a few books. >>
But clearly they have not and maybe they are hoping to OVER-MARKET this to rip an unsuspecting collector into thinking he is getting an R7 coin? Maybe I will send them an email during the week so as to possibly protect an uninformed bidder ...not protect the auction house as I could not care much about that...
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>But clearly they have not and maybe they are hoping to OVER-MARKET this to rip an unsuspecting collector into thinking he is getting an R7 coin? Maybe I will send them an email during the week so as to possibly protect an uninformed bidder ...not protect the auction house as I could not care much about that... >>
Member Hintonator posted a mighty fine thread with full research here in February =
According to Breen 17 of these pieces were minted. Two went to the Smithsonian cabinet, six were destroyed and nine went to James Fraser and mint officials. That means that eleven might still exist with two impounded in the national collection.
It is a rare piece for sure, but I'm not excited about the fact that the most important feature it has that distinguishes it from the regular 1913 Type I nickel is the missing "F" for Fraser's designer's signature.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
According to that post, 6 were melted and 2 are in the Smithsonian. So that leaves a maximum number of 9 available to the world. R7 seems correct even when including the Smithsonian examples...the only word incorrect in the auction listing would be MINTED it seems...not that big of a deal really.
Edit...Awe crap Bill beat me...
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>According to that post, 6 were melted and 2 are in the Smithsonian. So that leaves a maximum number of 9 available to the world. R7 seems correct even when including the Smithsonian examples...the only word incorrect in the auction listing would be MINTED it seems...not that big of a deal really. >>
The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian.
Like I said there's plenty of info available and the auction description is still very misleading by mentioning as little as only 4 may have been minted and 2 are in the Smithsonian.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>According to that post, 6 were melted and 2 are in the Smithsonian. So that leaves a maximum number of 9 available to the world. R7 seems correct even when including the Smithsonian examples...the only word incorrect in the auction listing would be MINTED it seems...not that big of a deal really. >>
The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian.
Like I said there's plenty of info available and the auction description is still very misleading by mentioning as little as only 4 may have been minted and 2 are in the Smithsonian. >>
I have read and reread the auction description and find it to be very straightforward and not misleading at all. Anyone spending $100k+ on a coin is going to do their own research to narrow down the mintage in that 4-12 range.
<< <i>It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. >>
About all that separates this piece from the regular issue is the missing "F" for "Fraser." I can think of a number of St. Gaudens patterns that are more historically significant than this piece.
Auctioneers are entitled to use a bit of hype when they are touting their offerings, but for the rest of us I think that a little perspective is in order.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
While I agree with TDN, I think it's important for auction companies to educate their customers. I learned so much from auction catalogs as a teenager, and they had a big impact on both my career choice and collecting interests. I would always encourage auction companies to do their part in educating the next generation by telling the coins' stories, rather than ceding that task to Google.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
And yet it definitively IS one of the first Indian Head nickels struck ...and certainly IS an important piece of numismatic history. The hype is gentle - and certainly less than the negative spin you are placing on it. For shame.
TDN, based on information here and that seems readily available, you are correct in stating "4-12 MINTED" is not misleading. It is an absolute lie if you care about the history of the item at all. The intent behind the lie is probably unintentional, at least I would like to think so.
Edit: It is interesting to note your statement about people spending this much on a coin would do their own research. I believe you have previously also encouraged professional auction representation...and that someone associated with this auction house has been known to provide that service...and then to see a lie in the auction description and have you dismiss it as not even misleading is ridiculous. Facts are facts, this lot description should be corrected.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
What is the mintage of the 1884 trade dollar? It is accepted and reported as 10. Were more struck? Absolutely. But only ten were released - the rest destroyed. To claim that reporting a net mintage as fact is a lie flies in the face of numismatic practices.
<< <i>It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. >>
About all that separates this piece from the regular issue is the missing "F" for "Fraser." I can think of a number of St. Gaudens patterns that are more historically significant than this piece.
Auctioneers are entitled to use a bit of hype when they are touting their offerings, but for the rest of us I think that a little perspective is in order. >>
As several people here know, I am a huge lover of Buffalo nickels as they are my primary numismatic interest. However, I'm in agreement with Bill. The description is a bit inflated.
Although hundreds of examples, or more, are known of several patterns, most exist in far smaller numbers. Quantifying this, both the Judd and Pollock references assign “R” or rarity scale numbers to each issue, ranging from R-1 (over 1251 known) to R-8 (1-3 known). The small number produced, combined with mishandling over the years, has taken its toll: patterns are frequently impaired to some degree. But gems do exist, and considering their rarity and desirability, are often priced quite reasonably, particularly in relation to many of their regular-issue counterparts. History, beauty and rarity: patterns encompass them all.
For those numismatically challenged, do note that the rarity scale for patterns has nothing to do with the number struck - and everything to do with the number of pieces that actually exist.
<< <i> For those numismatically challenged, do note that the rarity scale for patterns has nothing to do with the number struck - and everything to do with the number of pieces that actually exist. >>
Then why does this auction lot description reference MINTED? Sounds like you might actually come around and agree the auction listing needs to be corrected. Or are you saying that the auction house is Numismatically Challenged?
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i> For those numismatically challenged, do note that the rarity scale for patterns has nothing to do with the number struck - and everything to do with the number of pieces that actually exist. >>
Then why does this auction lot description reference MINTED? Sounds like you might actually come around and agree the auction listing needs to be corrected. Or are you saying that the auction house is Numismatically Challenged? >>
I'm saying you are being a bit of an ... when you accuse someone of lying when they aren't. First of all, the reported net mintage is 11. Second of all, the known pieces number 4. No matter how you slice it, both fall within the 4-12 range reported. What kind of person would come up with the word 'lie' when an auction house calls the piece R7? You, sir, need to print a retraction.
Item Description: Legend-Morphy is proud to have been consigned this incredible piece. It is an R-7 (only 4-12 estimated to be minted) as well as the FINEST KNOWN. We consider it to be one of the all time greatest 20th century rarities in existence, and the ultimate Buffalo Nickel.
The quality is incredible. Both us and the folks at CAC grade the coin a PR66, hence the gold sticker. The surfaces are perfect. Even searching with a microscope you’ll be hard pressed to find even a single tick, line, or spot. Both sides are lustrous and have a full matte-like texture. A wild mix of ORIGINAL lilac/pale tangerine/gold colors swirl all over and every single detail looks like it has been carved to perfection. The rims are extra thick and make a big impression. The eye appeal of this coin is mindblowing! PCGS 1, NGC 0, CAC 1. The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian. Some books claim 17 were minted-NONE have ever been recored in any auction other then the Farouk coin. We spoke to several Pattern researchers and were shocked as to how little information was available on this coin.
We feel strongly that this coin is more than just a pattern. It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. This may very well be your only chance to acquire such an unsung classic 20th century rarity. We expect substantial bidding on this, so good luck!
OK the description is in active edit mode with the aid of this thread...
But now you need boots just to read it as more hype is being pulled out of thin air instead of doing actual research!
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>Item Description: Legend-Morphy is proud to have been consigned this incredible piece. It is an R-7 (only 4-12 estimated to be minted) as well as the FINEST KNOWN. We consider it to be one of the all time greatest 20th century rarities in existence, and the ultimate Buffalo Nickel.
The quality is incredible. Both us and the folks at CAC grade the coin a PR66, hence the gold sticker. The surfaces are perfect. Even searching with a microscope you’ll be hard pressed to find even a single tick, line, or spot. Both sides are lustrous and have a full matte-like texture. A wild mix of ORIGINAL lilac/pale tangerine/gold colors swirl all over and every single detail looks like it has been carved to perfection. The rims are extra thick and make a big impression. The eye appeal of this coin is mindblowing! PCGS 1, NGC 0, CAC 1. The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian. Some books claim 17 were minted-NONE have ever been recored in any auction other then the Farouk coin. We spoke to several Pattern researchers and were shocked as to how little information was available on this coin.
We feel strongly that this coin is more than just a pattern. It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. This may very well be your only chance to acquire such an unsung classic 20th century rarity. We expect substantial bidding on this, so good luck!
OK the description is in active edit mode with the aid of this thread...
But now you need boots just to read it as more hype is being pulled out of thin air instead of doing actual research! >>
Uhm - that's the same writeup that I read this morning before my first post.
<< <i>Item Description: Legend-Morphy is proud to have been consigned this incredible piece. It is an R-7 (only 4-12 estimated to be minted) as well as the FINEST KNOWN. We consider it to be one of the all time greatest 20th century rarities in existence, and the ultimate Buffalo Nickel.
The quality is incredible. Both us and the folks at CAC grade the coin a PR66, hence the gold sticker. The surfaces are perfect. Even searching with a microscope you’ll be hard pressed to find even a single tick, line, or spot. Both sides are lustrous and have a full matte-like texture. A wild mix of ORIGINAL lilac/pale tangerine/gold colors swirl all over and every single detail looks like it has been carved to perfection. The rims are extra thick and make a big impression. The eye appeal of this coin is mindblowing! PCGS 1, NGC 0, CAC 1. The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian. Some books claim 17 were minted-NONE have ever been recored in any auction other then the Farouk coin. We spoke to several Pattern researchers and were shocked as to how little information was available on this coin.
We feel strongly that this coin is more than just a pattern. It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. This may very well be your only chance to acquire such an unsung classic 20th century rarity. We expect substantial bidding on this, so good luck!
OK the description is in active edit mode with the aid of this thread...
But now you need boots just to read it as more hype is being pulled out of thin air instead of doing actual research! >>
Uhm - that's the same writeup that I read this morning before my first post. >>
Nope (I did some of the rewritten parts in bold above) as I fell out of my seat with the new edited statement "Some books claim" since at 6 figures it might be worth mentioning the title of maybe just one
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
Why does it now say 4-12 estimated to be minted when mint records seem to indicate otherwise...like 17...then 6 being melted by the mint. Seems strange to be vague in the listing and leaving out some facts that are part of the history of the coin. Strange. Maybe it is the marketing hype trying to give people the hope that only 4 were minted as associated with the R7.
Why doesn't the auction house focus on KNOWN examples instead of using marketing hype skating around the actual mintage figures? I know Heritage in the past has given lots of details on ALL known specimens. Since there seem to only be a couple of known examples available to the collector, I would think this would be focused on a bit more.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
After contacting RWB he just posted information ATS from his Some book titled Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915 which covers the distribution of the minted 17 and actual remaining survivors.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i> Yawn. Net mintage is just fine. Next straw man? >>
You can yawn all you want, no one cares. It is likely that this thread got the listing changed. Although not great, it is improved. That's what matters and what people actually care about. A step in the right direction.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>After contacting RWB he just posted information ATS from his Some book titled Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915 which covers the distribution of the minted 17 and actual remaining survivors. >>
Damn I miss RWB! Maybe the auction house will stop trying to over-hype the wrong areas of this coin's history and focus on the facts?
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
It always said 4-12 estimated to be minted. Just because YOU have a bee in your bonnet that 17 were struck and 6 were destroyed doesn't mean that others will. In fact, from my experience, those that are extremely successful in life and may be bidding on this coin don't give a rat's patootie about such trivial minutia.
Oh, btw - RWB says there's nothing wrong with the auction description. Get over it, folks...
RWB says there's nothing wrong with the auction description. Get over it, folks...
I had and have no problem with the description's representation of the coin's rarity or quality. I just feel that the coin is important enough to warrant some historical background, and it's sad in a way that there is none. In retrospect, and solely IMHO, L-M probably should have hired RWB or some other researcher to help with that.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>RWB says there's nothing wrong with the auction description. Get over it, folks...
I had and have no problem with the description's representation of the coin's rarity or quality. I just feel that the coin is important enough to warrant some historical background, and it's sad in a way that there is none. In retrospect, and solely IMHO, L-M probably should have hired RWB or some other researcher to help with that. >>
Perhaps. I doubt it would affect the price realized but it certainly would affect the overhead. Laura has never had a problem selling premium coins for premium prices despite not having Dave Bowers' knack for writing paragraphs of information about each piece. I guess more choices for the consignor is always a good thing - if all auction houses were exactly alike what would be the point?
<< <i>RWB said the auction listing was "OK." I guess that is the lofty standard that this auction house aims for... >>
I guess throwing around false accusations of lying is the lofty standard that YOU aim for... >>
Sure, if you makes you feel good. Mint records have shown 17 minted. Knowing this would make 4-12 a lie in my book. Why not just state the facts in the listing? 17 minted, 6 destroyed and the the only known examples are..... Seems pretty simple to me.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>RWB said the auction listing was "OK." I guess that is the lofty standard that this auction house aims for... >>
I guess throwing around false accusations of lying is the lofty standard that YOU aim for... >>
Sure, if you makes you feel good. Mint records have shown 17 minted. Knowing this would make 4-12 a lie in my book. Why not just state the facts in the listing? 17 minted, 6 destroyed and the the only known examples are..... Seems pretty simple to me. >>
Seems pretty simple to look it up as an R7 as well and report that. I highly doubt many people know the minutia of how that came to be nor care. It's not lying to report a fact. While YOU may differ, there's nothing wrong with reporting a net mintage and doing so is not a lie. Until you recant said assertion, I will have nothing more to do with you on these boards.
I can't recall you ever having anything to do with me or any of my posts. I just don't see that I have anything to recant as it seems to be a accepted as fact that 17 were struck/minted/produced etc.
If mintage is known to be one thing then some are destroyed I will admit that I was unfamiliar with net mintage being accepted by some. This is new to me and I admit that. Nowhere in the listing does it say net mintage though. That bothers me and makes the listing wrong to me. I think if the listing said 17 minted, I doubt anyone would have a problem with it as it seems to be the most accurate of information on hand. Then the listing could move on to the actual rarity of the piece which is far greater than the mintage figure of 17. Sticking to facts is something I am a fan of...if you want to say net mintage in the listing then say net mintage. If you want to create footnotes in micro print then you can do that as well.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
First, Laura catalogs these sales, and we all know what that means. As I see it, it's way to easy - and, despite being tempting, classless - to pick on anything she writes. (Reminds me of a Wanda Sykes line: "But you can't root against President Bush, it's like booing at the Special Olympics.")
Second, Laura is too honest and too smart to intentionally lie about a coin's rarity.
Third, and most ridiculously, we all know who is likely to buy the coin. The coin doesn't need to be in the auction to get sold, and the lot description will not affect anyone's bid.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Same thing I posted ATS...and the last time I post in this thread hopefully.
[quote=tradedollarnut]I guess some collectors don't mind accusing someone of lying when they aren't... [/quote]
The listing said estimated mintage of 4-12. That is simply not true! It seems exactly 17 were minted/struck/produced. If you want to say an estimated net mintage of 4-12, then say that as it would get you closer!...but that is not what is said!...and there does not seem any reason to estimate anything either. Sticking to the facts is normally best. 17 minted, 6 destroyed, known example history blah blah blah and the rarity of known examples clearly places this at R7....blah blah marketing fluff blah.
Fact- 17 minted Accepted Fact it seems- 11 net minted (footnote it if you want or don't) Incorrect/False/Inaccurate/misleading as stated in the listing- (only 4-12 estimated to be minted)
Maybe the word "lie" is a bit over the top and implies INTENT to mislead. I want to publicly say I am wrong here. I should have focused energy on incorrect/false/inaccurate/misleading. I just do not understand why the goal wouldn't be to be as accurate as possible when you have the facts. That is what frustrates me the most I guess.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Perhaps stating up to 11 NET minted would be more precise with the comment that 17 were minted with 6 destroyed would make the history of such pattern even more interesting.
The surfaces of that pattern is simply spellbinding from the pictures.
Ed62
Posts: 857 ✭✭
Comments
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>given the description, why would PCGS only grade this as a 65 and Legend a 66?? >>
Legend also calls this R-7 (only 4-12 minted) when mint documents exist that state 17 had been struck making it a R-6 rarity.
Missing RWB on the boards for this one!
<< <i>
<< <i>given the description, why would PCGS only grade this as a 65 and Legend a 66?? >>
Legend also calls this R-7 (only 4-12 minted) when mint documents exist that state 17 had been struck making it a R-6 rarity.
Missing RWB on the boards for this one!
My only guess is that it might be R7 when it comes to survivors/known survivors? Awesome coin!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>My only guess is that it might be R7 when it comes to survivors/known survivors? >>
Well the description is states (only 4-12 minted) and also were shocked as to how little information was available on this coin.
Although there's not much web info there's plenty of info on this pattern in at least a 1/2 a dozen books.
<< <i>
<< <i>My only guess is that it might be R7 when it comes to survivors/known survivors? >>
Well the description is states (only 4-12 minted) and also were shocked as to how little information was available on this coin.
Although there's not much web info there's plenty of info on this pattern in at least a 1/2 a dozen books. >>
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Contact the auction house to correct them and see if they are receptive of the information and actually correct the listing.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Contact the auction house to correct them and see if they are receptive of the information and actually correct the listing.
I'm not on LM's research payroll... I'm sure they can afford to buy a few books.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Contact the auction house to correct them and see if they are receptive of the information and actually correct the listing.
I'm not on LM's research payroll... I'm sure they can afford to buy a few books. >>
But clearly they have not and maybe they are hoping to OVER-MARKET this to rip an unsuspecting collector into thinking he is getting an R7 coin? Maybe I will send them an email during the week so as to possibly protect an uninformed bidder ...not protect the auction house as I could not care much about that...
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>But clearly they have not and maybe they are hoping to OVER-MARKET this to rip an unsuspecting collector into thinking he is getting an R7 coin? Maybe I will send them an email during the week so as to possibly protect an uninformed bidder ...not protect the auction house as I could not care much about that... >>
Member Hintonator posted a mighty fine thread with full research here in February =
Trial Strikes of James Earle Frasers five cent piece dated 1913.
It is a rare piece for sure, but I'm not excited about the fact that the most important feature it has that distinguishes it from the regular 1913 Type I nickel is the missing "F" for Fraser's designer's signature.
Edit...Awe crap Bill beat me...
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>According to that post, 6 were melted and 2 are in the Smithsonian. So that leaves a maximum number of 9 available to the world. R7 seems correct even when including the Smithsonian examples...the only word incorrect in the auction listing would be MINTED it seems...not that big of a deal really. >>
The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian.
Like I said there's plenty of info available and the auction description is still very misleading by mentioning as little as only 4 may have been minted and 2 are in the Smithsonian.
<< <i>
<< <i>According to that post, 6 were melted and 2 are in the Smithsonian. So that leaves a maximum number of 9 available to the world. R7 seems correct even when including the Smithsonian examples...the only word incorrect in the auction listing would be MINTED it seems...not that big of a deal really. >>
The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian.
Like I said there's plenty of info available and the auction description is still very misleading by mentioning as little as only 4 may have been minted and 2 are in the Smithsonian. >>
I have read and reread the auction description and find it to be very straightforward and not misleading at all. Anyone spending $100k+ on a coin is going to do their own research to narrow down the mintage in that 4-12 range.
<< <i>It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. >>
About all that separates this piece from the regular issue is the missing "F" for "Fraser." I can think of a number of St. Gaudens patterns that are more historically significant than this piece.
Auctioneers are entitled to use a bit of hype when they are touting their offerings, but for the rest of us I think that a little perspective is in order.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Edit: It is interesting to note your statement about people spending this much on a coin would do their own research. I believe you have previously also encouraged professional auction representation...and that someone associated with this auction house has been known to provide that service...and then to see a lie in the auction description and have you dismiss it as not even misleading is ridiculous. Facts are facts, this lot description should be corrected.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
What is the mintage of the 1884 trade dollar? It is accepted and reported as 10. Were more struck? Absolutely. But only ten were released - the rest destroyed. To claim that reporting a net mintage as fact is a lie flies in the face of numismatic practices.
<< <i>
<< <i>It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. >>
About all that separates this piece from the regular issue is the missing "F" for "Fraser." I can think of a number of St. Gaudens patterns that are more historically significant than this piece.
Auctioneers are entitled to use a bit of hype when they are touting their offerings, but for the rest of us I think that a little perspective is in order. >>
As several people here know, I am a huge lover of Buffalo nickels as they are my primary numismatic interest. However, I'm in agreement with Bill. The description is a bit inflated.
For those numismatically challenged, do note that the rarity scale for patterns has nothing to do with the number struck - and everything to do with the number of pieces that actually exist.
<< <i>
For those numismatically challenged, do note that the rarity scale for patterns has nothing to do with the number struck - and everything to do with the number of pieces that actually exist. >>
Then why does this auction lot description reference MINTED? Sounds like you might actually come around and agree the auction listing needs to be corrected. Or are you saying that the auction house is Numismatically Challenged?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>
<< <i>
For those numismatically challenged, do note that the rarity scale for patterns has nothing to do with the number struck - and everything to do with the number of pieces that actually exist. >>
Then why does this auction lot description reference MINTED? Sounds like you might actually come around and agree the auction listing needs to be corrected. Or are you saying that the auction house is Numismatically Challenged?
I'm saying you are being a bit of an ... when you accuse someone of lying when they aren't. First of all, the reported net mintage is 11. Second of all, the known pieces number 4. No matter how you slice it, both fall within the 4-12 range reported. What kind of person would come up with the word 'lie' when an auction house calls the piece R7? You, sir, need to print a retraction.
Legend-Morphy is proud to have been consigned this incredible piece. It is an R-7 (only 4-12 estimated to be minted) as well as the FINEST KNOWN. We consider it to be one of the all time greatest 20th century rarities in existence, and the ultimate Buffalo Nickel.
The quality is incredible. Both us and the folks at CAC grade the coin a PR66, hence the gold sticker. The surfaces are perfect. Even searching with a microscope you’ll be hard pressed to find even a single tick, line, or spot. Both sides are lustrous and have a full matte-like texture. A wild mix of ORIGINAL lilac/pale tangerine/gold colors swirl all over and every single detail looks like it has been carved to perfection. The rims are extra thick and make a big impression. The eye appeal of this coin is mindblowing! PCGS 1, NGC 0, CAC 1. The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian. Some books claim 17 were minted-NONE have ever been recored in any auction other then the Farouk coin. We spoke to several Pattern researchers and were shocked as to how little information was available on this coin.
We feel strongly that this coin is more than just a pattern. It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. This may very well be your only chance to acquire such an unsung classic 20th century rarity. We expect substantial bidding on this, so good luck!
OK the description is in active edit mode with the aid of this thread...
But now you need boots just to read it as more hype is being pulled out of thin air instead of doing actual research!
<< <i>Item Description:
Legend-Morphy is proud to have been consigned this incredible piece. It is an R-7 (only 4-12 estimated to be minted) as well as the FINEST KNOWN. We consider it to be one of the all time greatest 20th century rarities in existence, and the ultimate Buffalo Nickel.
The quality is incredible. Both us and the folks at CAC grade the coin a PR66, hence the gold sticker. The surfaces are perfect. Even searching with a microscope you’ll be hard pressed to find even a single tick, line, or spot. Both sides are lustrous and have a full matte-like texture. A wild mix of ORIGINAL lilac/pale tangerine/gold colors swirl all over and every single detail looks like it has been carved to perfection. The rims are extra thick and make a big impression. The eye appeal of this coin is mindblowing! PCGS 1, NGC 0, CAC 1. The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian. Some books claim 17 were minted-NONE have ever been recored in any auction other then the Farouk coin. We spoke to several Pattern researchers and were shocked as to how little information was available on this coin.
We feel strongly that this coin is more than just a pattern. It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. This may very well be your only chance to acquire such an unsung classic 20th century rarity. We expect substantial bidding on this, so good luck!
OK the description is in active edit mode with the aid of this thread...
But now you need boots just to read it as more hype is being pulled out of thin air instead of doing actual research!
Uhm - that's the same writeup that I read this morning before my first post.
<< <i>
<< <i>Item Description:
Legend-Morphy is proud to have been consigned this incredible piece. It is an R-7 (only 4-12 estimated to be minted) as well as the FINEST KNOWN. We consider it to be one of the all time greatest 20th century rarities in existence, and the ultimate Buffalo Nickel.
The quality is incredible. Both us and the folks at CAC grade the coin a PR66, hence the gold sticker. The surfaces are perfect. Even searching with a microscope you’ll be hard pressed to find even a single tick, line, or spot. Both sides are lustrous and have a full matte-like texture. A wild mix of ORIGINAL lilac/pale tangerine/gold colors swirl all over and every single detail looks like it has been carved to perfection. The rims are extra thick and make a big impression. The eye appeal of this coin is mindblowing! PCGS 1, NGC 0, CAC 1. The only other known collectible specimen is the Farouk PR63, which sold for $66,000.00 in 2003. There are also two other specimens in the Smithsonian. Some books claim 17 were minted-NONE have ever been recored in any auction other then the Farouk coin. We spoke to several Pattern researchers and were shocked as to how little information was available on this coin.
We feel strongly that this coin is more than just a pattern. It was clearly one of the first Buffalo Nickels to ever be struck and we think as 20th century coinage goes, the importance of this piece is unmatched. This may very well be your only chance to acquire such an unsung classic 20th century rarity. We expect substantial bidding on this, so good luck!
OK the description is in active edit mode with the aid of this thread...
But now you need boots just to read it as more hype is being pulled out of thin air instead of doing actual research!
Uhm - that's the same writeup that I read this morning before my first post.
Nope (I did some of the rewritten parts in bold above) as I fell out of my seat with the new edited statement "Some books claim" since at 6 figures it might be worth mentioning the title of maybe just one
And now the listing is being edited. Interesting.
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<< <i>So the term NET MINTAGE is being tossed around by TDN and there was no asterisk or fine print at the bottom of the listing.
And now the listing is being edited. Interesting.
Yawn. Net mintage is just fine. Next straw man?
Why doesn't the auction house focus on KNOWN examples instead of using marketing hype skating around the actual mintage figures? I know Heritage in the past has given lots of details on ALL known specimens. Since there seem to only be a couple of known examples available to the collector, I would think this would be focused on a bit more.
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<< <i>
Yawn. Net mintage is just fine. Next straw man? >>
You can yawn all you want, no one cares. It is likely that this thread got the listing changed. Although not great, it is improved. That's what matters and what people actually care about. A step in the right direction.
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<< <i>After contacting RWB he just posted information ATS from his Some book titled Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915 which covers the distribution of the minted 17 and actual remaining survivors. >>
Damn I miss RWB! Maybe the auction house will stop trying to over-hype the wrong areas of this coin's history and focus on the facts?
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Oh, btw - RWB says there's nothing wrong with the auction description. Get over it, folks...
The auction listing would be a lot stronger if it just stuck to facts rather than marketing hype and fluff.
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I had and have no problem with the description's representation of the coin's rarity or quality. I just feel that the coin is important enough to warrant some historical background, and it's sad in a way that there is none. In retrospect, and solely IMHO, L-M probably should have hired RWB or some other researcher to help with that.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>RWB said the auction listing was "OK." I guess that is the lofty standard that this auction house aims for...
I guess throwing around false accusations of lying is the lofty standard that YOU aim for...
<< <i>RWB says there's nothing wrong with the auction description. Get over it, folks...
I had and have no problem with the description's representation of the coin's rarity or quality. I just feel that the coin is important enough to warrant some historical background, and it's sad in a way that there is none. In retrospect, and solely IMHO, L-M probably should have hired RWB or some other researcher to help with that. >>
Perhaps. I doubt it would affect the price realized but it certainly would affect the overhead. Laura has never had a problem selling premium coins for premium prices despite not having Dave Bowers' knack for writing paragraphs of information about each piece. I guess more choices for the consignor is always a good thing - if all auction houses were exactly alike what would be the point?
<< <i>
<< <i>RWB said the auction listing was "OK." I guess that is the lofty standard that this auction house aims for...
I guess throwing around false accusations of lying is the lofty standard that YOU aim for... >>
Sure, if you makes you feel good. Mint records have shown 17 minted. Knowing this would make 4-12 a lie in my book. Why not just state the facts in the listing? 17 minted, 6 destroyed and the the only known examples are..... Seems pretty simple to me.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>RWB said the auction listing was "OK." I guess that is the lofty standard that this auction house aims for...
I guess throwing around false accusations of lying is the lofty standard that YOU aim for... >>
Sure, if you makes you feel good. Mint records have shown 17 minted. Knowing this would make 4-12 a lie in my book. Why not just state the facts in the listing? 17 minted, 6 destroyed and the the only known examples are..... Seems pretty simple to me. >>
Seems pretty simple to look it up as an R7 as well and report that. I highly doubt many people know the minutia of how that came to be nor care. It's not lying to report a fact. While YOU may differ, there's nothing wrong with reporting a net mintage and doing so is not a lie. Until you recant said assertion, I will have nothing more to do with you on these boards.
If mintage is known to be one thing then some are destroyed I will admit that I was unfamiliar with net mintage being accepted by some. This is new to me and I admit that. Nowhere in the listing does it say net mintage though. That bothers me and makes the listing wrong to me. I think if the listing said 17 minted, I doubt anyone would have a problem with it as it seems to be the most accurate of information on hand. Then the listing could move on to the actual rarity of the piece which is far greater than the mintage figure of 17. Sticking to facts is something I am a fan of...if you want to say net mintage in the listing then say net mintage. If you want to create footnotes in micro print then you can do that as well.
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First, Laura catalogs these sales, and we all know what that means. As I see it, it's way to easy - and, despite being tempting, classless - to pick on anything she writes. (Reminds me of a Wanda Sykes line: "But you can't root against President Bush, it's like booing at the Special Olympics.")
Second, Laura is too honest and too smart to intentionally lie about a coin's rarity.
Third, and most ridiculously, we all know who is likely to buy the coin. The coin doesn't need to be in the auction to get sold, and the lot description will not affect anyone's bid.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>This "debate" is ridiculous >>
That is all that needed to be said
[quote=tradedollarnut]I guess some collectors don't mind accusing someone of lying when they aren't... [/quote]
The listing said estimated mintage of 4-12. That is simply not true! It seems exactly 17 were minted/struck/produced. If you want to say an estimated net mintage of 4-12, then say that as it would get you closer!...but that is not what is said!...and there does not seem any reason to estimate anything either. Sticking to the facts is normally best. 17 minted, 6 destroyed, known example history blah blah blah and the rarity of known examples clearly places this at R7....blah blah marketing fluff blah.
Fact- 17 minted
Accepted Fact it seems- 11 net minted (footnote it if you want or don't)
Incorrect/False/Inaccurate/misleading as stated in the listing- (only 4-12 estimated to be minted)
Maybe the word "lie" is a bit over the top and implies INTENT to mislead. I want to publicly say I am wrong here. I should have focused energy on incorrect/false/inaccurate/misleading. I just do not understand why the goal wouldn't be to be as accurate as possible when you have the facts. That is what frustrates me the most I guess.
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<< <i>Ok - that's acceptable. I was amazed how quickly you went from no big deal to lie. Laura would NEVER lie - it isn't in her nature >>
I apologize for that. I had to go down stairs and go swim in the ocean for a while for me to get it.
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Here is the original distribution list from Saul & Andy's website.
Any ideas where the others might be today??
The surfaces of that pattern is simply spellbinding from the pictures.