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My brief Long Beach report, and a GTG Clark Gruber 1861 $20
dcarr
Posts: 8,015 ✭✭✭✭✭
The last time I attended a Long Beach show was about 1977.
Now 36 years later, I had a coin that I wanted graded, but I didn't want to put it in the mail.
So I took it in person.
The show seemed a little smaller than what I remember from back then.
Overall, the prices on coins were "stiff".
Problem coins were not being discounted like they should.
Coins with light cleaning (for example), even those "slabbed" as such, were priced at or above "gray sheet" for that (details) grade.
Nice problem-free coins were well above that, of course (as expected).
About all I ended up buying was some lower-priced exonumia and some other cheap "junk".
Only one of my four Heritage Auction bids was even close to being a winner (but it still lost anyway).
On Wednesday I submitted the coin in question to PCGS under the "next day (show)" service.
I had to spend the entire show in suspense, because the coin didn't become available for pickup until an hour before the show was over (Saturday afternoon).
So here is my first ever guess-the-grade.
Keep in mind that every known genuine example has striking weakness on the left side of the shield area.
The ones with fully-struck shield details are the "die 2" (counterfeits).
Now 36 years later, I had a coin that I wanted graded, but I didn't want to put it in the mail.
So I took it in person.
The show seemed a little smaller than what I remember from back then.
Overall, the prices on coins were "stiff".
Problem coins were not being discounted like they should.
Coins with light cleaning (for example), even those "slabbed" as such, were priced at or above "gray sheet" for that (details) grade.
Nice problem-free coins were well above that, of course (as expected).
About all I ended up buying was some lower-priced exonumia and some other cheap "junk".
Only one of my four Heritage Auction bids was even close to being a winner (but it still lost anyway).
On Wednesday I submitted the coin in question to PCGS under the "next day (show)" service.
I had to spend the entire show in suspense, because the coin didn't become available for pickup until an hour before the show was over (Saturday afternoon).
So here is my first ever guess-the-grade.
Keep in mind that every known genuine example has striking weakness on the left side of the shield area.
The ones with fully-struck shield details are the "die 2" (counterfeits).
0
Comments
Outstanding coin that looks as good or better than the one in my Red Book.
Enjoyed the show report. Although brief, I get the point.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
My guess is AU53
Dave
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Coin Rarities Online
AU 50
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>Sweet Liberty... I mean PikesPeak
I know. I did a double take when I noticed that.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
bob
Great coin, by the way.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Hoard the keys.
XF45
How about XF45+
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
The ones with fully-struck shield details are the "die 2" (counterfeits).
This is interesting, especially because I thought the counterfeits were made from transfer dies. Makes you wonder where the "fully struck shield details" on the counterfeits came from.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Keep in mind that every known genuine example has striking weakness on the left side of the shield area.
The ones with fully-struck shield details are the "die 2" (counterfeits).
This is interesting, especially because I thought the counterfeits were made from transfer dies. Makes you wonder where the "fully struck shield details" on the counterfeits came from. >>
The counterfeiter may have used one of the original copper or gilt trial strikes as a model.
Those tend to be fully struck. I've never seen an actual gold one that was anywhere near fully struck.
It is interesting that there is such a wide range of guesses, from 35 to 58.
I don't recall ever seeing a guess-the-grade with a range that wide (when clear pictures are provided).
The posters here that are known to me as expert numismatists tended to grade it higher than others.
Nobody guessed XF40 (which would have been wrong).
My thoughts about this particular coin:
I've never owned a coin quite like this, and maybe never will again - certainly nothing this valuable. I did not want to put it in the mail due to the high value of it, even though higher-priced coins are shipped all the time.
This particular coin is just a fantastic example. It is about as perfect as you could ever hope for on a lightly-circulated piece. The rims are perfect all the way around, there isn't even the slightest rim ding or flat spot anywhere around the edge, and it is free of major marks and scrapes. Liberty's face is especially nice. The planchet is totally sound - no inclusions, no cracks, no delaminations. I've seen many territorial gold coins certified (with "straight" grades) that are obviously shiny from cleaning. This particular coin appears to have the perfect texture - satiny, not shiny - and no hairlines of any kind.
To me, this is the ultimate Colorado-related coin. As a private Colorado-based minter myself (and a Denver native), I can really appreciate the history of these. A large piece of gold minted in Denver during the early Colorado Territorial Gold Rush days. Of course, the 1860 Clark Gruber "Mountain" $20 is worth more than this one, but the fact that the 1861 issue was during the Civil War has added appeal for me.
Now for the grade:
XF45
I wouldn't object to that grade, as years ago it would be a super high end XF45. And I'm of course happy that it received a problem-free grade and passed the "Secure Plus" scrutiny. But what really irks me is that the coin is obviously superior to "AU" examples that have already been certified. Like this PCGS AU-53 example sold on Heritage in 2006:
I realize that a great coin is a great coin, regardless of the plastic. But this coin at least deserved a "+" grade. If I were ever to sell this coin (I hope to be able to hang on to it), I would have to "compete" with the higher-graded coins that have known realized prices. The coin pictured above sold in 2006 for just under $72,000. Would my XF45 bring more than that ? The PCGS Price Guide is currently $47,500 for XF45. In other words, if I were to sell my XF45 coin for the full PCGS Price Guide price at that grade, I would feel like I was getting a horrible deal. Note that the denticles on the AU53 coin aren't even full in the "CO DE" area.
PS:
And speaking of the PCGS Price Guide and Population Report:
The highest grade listed in the population report is a single AU-58.
But the Price Guide lists values for MS60, MS61, and MS62. Is the price guide supposed to list prices for PCGS grades that don't exist ?
My guess is, when the "die 2" coins were determined to be counterfeits, they were backed out of the Population Report, but they were NOT backed out of the Price Guide.
Grading is subjective and let's face it, coins do come under extreme scrutiny at a certain level, and for good reason. A fantastic piece of American history all the same.
I really like that piece more than almost every girlfriend I've ever had.
It would be foolish for me to presume too much judging solely from the photos provided, even though they are quite nice. My suspicion though, is that for the graders, luster trumps strike here. The second set of photos of the 2006 Heritage AU53 coin seem to show more luster than your coin in the first photo. Honestly though, it would be hard to rank the two coins in question without a side-by-side comparison.
Of course, my input might be completely irrelevant - this coin is a little higher up in the atmosphere than I have experience with.
How did you acquire the coin? Was it raw?
<< <i>45-ish >>
Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Thank you for such an awesome giveaway. Actually, rr beat me to it by an hour but I'll share.
Here's another one for reference/comparison purposes.
Didn't Regulated post the original coin that the dies were made from??
Didn't Regulated post the original coin that the dies were made from??
You're probably thinking of the fake Assay $20's. Regulated did find that one.
I don't think the "original" CG has been located yet, but Regulated has posted about the repeating diagnostic seen on the fakes.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That's right......shouldn't post before coffee early in the AM.
<< <i>How many people at PCGS are qualified to grade that? I would take some of the responders grades over a standard PCGS grader. I would take it in for a Presidential review (does DH do that at shows?). I was guessing 45, but I really thought it was better than that. >>
I still don't want to put it in the mail, but if I could have a "Presidential Review" at a coin show, I might do that.
<< <i>Super nice coin.
How did you acquire the coin? Was it raw? >>
Thanks.
I bought it from a collector about two hours drive from here.
The seller was having some financial difficulties and wanted to raise capital.
It was not certified.
Sadly, they did not have any other Clark Gruber coins, nor any other coins of this caliber.
But I wouldn't have been able to afford to buy any others anyway.
I got a very good deal on it, but it wasn't a "fire sale" or a "rip" or anything like that.
and I think your XF45 is right on the nut...
Beautifull Coin that anyone would love to own :-)
LM-ANA3242-CSNS308-MSNS226-ICTA
The finest Known example (per "Regulated") He din't mention the grade.
MS62. Looks prooflike, OGH from the 1990's when they graded them like $20 Libs.
AU58. Very little actual wear. XF-45 is 1990's grading standards.
XF-45. Can't tell from the lighting, but it looks cleaned. AU-53 is a gift.
If you compare the top 2 coins, they are the same. One picture is Regulated's, the other mine.