Jason Kidd Top 5 Point Guard: Yes or No?

cardsnbeads

I say Yes . He was a great rebounder for his height as well .

VitoCo1972

Top 5 no question. The question is whether he's Top 3.

PSASAP

Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Bob Cousy, John Stockton and Jason Kidd. Not top three, but arguably either top four or five.

Dodgerfanjohn

First off, there is that dude on the NBA logo.

Then just maybe:

Pete Maravich, Nate Archibald, Isiah Thomas. Likely Chris Paul.

Just for argument sake. I love distributors, but Kidd's lack of shooting skills really hindered him. Unlike Magic Johnson who was able to eventually develop a very good set shot to go along with bein one of the best penetrators in the league, Kidd only developed a outside shot once his physical ability deteriorated and he was no longer able to effectively drive the lane.

esebille

oscar, magic, stockton, cousy, nash, thomas......I would say top 10.

Dodgerfanjohn

Forgot about Nash...2mvps correct? Negative on defense though. Probably the worst defensive player listed thus far, behind even Magic and Archibald

lightningboy

Was Cousy really that good by today's standards? Honestly don't know enough about him to say.

otwcards

West and Maravich were really more like shooting guards and in today's game would play the 2. Magic was a hybrid and while he played the point, he was more like Lebron in that he was really a point forward.

Oscar was the quintessential point guard and anyone else pales in comparison.

My Top 5:

1. Oscar Robertson
2. John Stockton
3. Walt Frazier
4. Steve Nash
5. Jason Kidd

Honorable Mention: Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, Calvin Murphy, Lenny Wilkens and Nate Archibald

Your mileage may vary...

bobbybakeriv

No. He is HOF worthy but not top 5 IMO.

vladguerrero

I like Scott's list.

Tabe

There has never been a day in his life that Kidd was as good a player as Isiah was. Isiah was at least add good a passer, a MUCH better scorer, and about 10x the defensive player.

orioles93

I would put him at 3rd all time, behind Robertson and Stockton. With Steve Nash a close 4th.

Anyway you put it, he is still one of the best ever.

VitoCo1972

You have to remember he dragged two VERY mediocre teams to the Finals. i know the East was weak but that team was Jefferson/Martin and the sisters of the poor. He was a Top 3 player in the league in 02 and 03 behind Duncan and MAYBE Iverson or Shaq depending on their level of interest that night. The reason he's ahead of Stockton despite the stats is that he was THE star player on two teams that went to the Finals - the only HOFer on those teams. Stockton is great for sure but he's the 2nd best player on two teams that went to the Finals. Also, John Stockton never finished in the Top 6 in MVP voting. Kidd has a 2nd, 5th and 6th (plus three 8th's). Stockton has a 7th, 8th and a 9th. JS is amazing and clearly a high level HOFer but does he lead the league in assists nine straight years without the 3rd best power forward ever playing with him for his entire career? Who knows? I know what Kidd did with nothing.

2001-02 NJ Nets starters:
Kerry Kittles
Keith Van Horn
Kenyon Martin
Richard Jefferson
JASON KIDD

2002-03 NJ Nets starters
Kerry Kittles
Lucius Harris
Kenyon Martin
Richard Jefferson
JASON KIDD

And the 03 team won 2 games in the Finals against the Spurs. Seriously. Were any of those guys ever anything without Jason Kidd? Don't let his degradation in the later years fool you. And by the way, he's 3rd all time in 3's made. So he did shoot well enough when he had to.

Plus if you had a team of Super Duper Stars (or as Bill Simmons says, the team that we'd pick to play the Aliens for the survival of Earth), you're picking Kidd. He'd get every guy the ball at the right time.

slum22

In chronological order:

Cousy
Magic
Isaiah
Stockton
Kidd

Honorable mentions:
Chris Paul (Will likely move into top 5 before his career is over)
Steve Nash
Gary Payton is overlooked
I am sure I am missing some pre-80's players but I never watched them.

They are certainly great players and racked up a lot of assists but I don't believe either West or Robertson would be listed as PG's in most historical discussions. Kidd was one of the greatest passers and rebounders ever out of the point guard position. As another poster mentioned he dragged two teams filled with corpses to the Finals. While Nash's career is HOF worthy and he is a great player, both of his MVP's are a little fraudulent as he won more as a popularity contest amongst the voting media.

hyperchipper09

Great career. On the fence as to how I would rank them myself after Magic Johnson at #1 and Oscar Robertson at #2. The thing about Magic and Oscar Robertson was that they played everywhere, they did everything and did everything at extremely high levels. Add in the fact that Magic is a top 5 player all time and Oscar's certainly top 10, probably top 6-8 and that's tough to knock those guys off the 1 & 2 spots

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Cousy
4. West
5. Stockton

In my opinion though, Magic and the Big O were so much more than point guards. Tough to pigeon hole them into that one position. But if they are going to be considered point guards only for this, well, I like them 1,2.

VitoCo1972

If Oscar and West are point guards then so is Tyreke Evans. They are combo guards. They're not playing the 1, the entire offense is running through them. Magic would be the same from 87-91 but he's a legit PG from 79-86.

Baez578

It's tough to include West in the conversation since he wasn't your prototypical point guard (averaging over 40 points per game in the playoffs for example). He was a flat-out superstar. If you're including him, then one can even argue about Jordan, Drexler....even Allen "practice??!!!!"Iverson
When you think of a point guard, you think of the perfect combination of passing, scoring and defense. Most importantly, setting the tempo and calling the plays in every game (almost like a catcher in baseball).

With that being said....

I may not like him, but Isiah Thomas HAS to be on that list. If you want to argue MVP votes, NBA championships, supporting cast, etc..... There's no question that Isiah could even be 3rd behind Magic and Oscar (the man averaged a triple double for the season!!)

Just my 2 cents

gc1213

I would have to say he is top 10. Robertson is a tough one to place because while he played the point I would consider him more in the do it all hybrid player mold than Magic. While Magic was a great post player and could play any position (on offense) he was the purest of points with the ball in his hands. It is so incredibly difficult to compare across generations in the NBA with how much the game has evolved. I personally don't think a guy like Cousy would be a force in the 80s/90s/present day but you cannot take away from his game in his time. If I had to list in order I would say:

1. Magic
2. Robertson
3. Stockton
4. Isiah
5. Payton

Those are the cream of the crop with West, Kidd, Nash Cousy and Archibald all in the next tier. All incredible players though. I would have to put Kidd over Nash though despite those 2 MVPs. Kidd was a better defender by leaps and bounds and was more complete overall.

DetroitSquirreL

maybe top 10, NOT top 5

hyperchipper09

Magic and Oscar and West muddy these types of rankings LOL. Everyone has a different opinion on whether or not they were PG's. I didn't see Oscar or West play, I did see Magic , his whole career. And while not a huge Magic fan I consider him to be the best player I've seen. Any position. That's also coming from a UNC fan of 30+ years(No Jordan bias, just something about Magic IMO). And has someone who as been a fan of Clyde Drexler since 1982 or so, thanks to the poster for including his name with the Jordan's, West's, etc. He's typically never a player that gets mentioned

Tabe

Magic absolutely was a point guard. When he came back post-retirement, yeah, he wasn't. But before that? No question about it.

PSASAP

Hell, why not call Jordan a PG? He played that position for a millisecond of his career.

VitoCo1972

<< <i>Magic absolutely was a point guard. When he came back post-retirement, yeah, he wasn't. But before that? No question about it. >>



He became their primary offensive force in 1987. From 1980-86 he averages 18-10 with 5.7 foul shots/game. From 87-91 He averages 21/12 w/ 7.5 free throws/game. When Kareem deteriorated he became more than just a great point guard. But he was absolutely a PG before 1987.

lahmejoon

Might be blasphemy coming from a Cal alum, but I can't put Kidd in my top 5. Lack of championships, best season for assists was only #50-something all-time, best season for steals was #100-something all-time, etc would set him back for me. The guy was fun to watch, but I can't say he was a consistent, dominant force. He played forever, like Mark Jackson, but was better than Jackson for sure.

Tabe

<< <i>

<< <i>Magic absolutely was a point guard. When he came back post-retirement, yeah, he wasn't. But before that? No question about it. >>



He became their primary offensive force in 1987. From 1980-86 he averages 18-10 with 5.7 foul shots/game. From 87-91 He averages 21/12 w/ 7.5 free throws/game. When Kareem deteriorated he became more than just a great point guard. But he was absolutely a PG before 1987. >>


Doesn't mean he wasn't still a PG. Lots of guys are the #1 offensive option while still being a PG. From 1987 - 1991, he was still averaging 12 assists a game. He was a point guard.

TheCARDKid

I'm thinking number 6 or 7 all time.

-Stockton has more points per game, assists and steals. Plus higher career numbers in all those categories.

Not a knock on Kidd, but the east was pretty much a black hole when he went to the finals in 2002, 2003. The east was in a rebuilding phase after a bunch of hall of famers retired in the 90's. The knicks lost ewing. The bulls were dismantled. It was also before KG, or Rondo had gone to the Celtics. And before the Heat big 3.

I'd put Isiah at number 4. I think what hurts Kidd, he was never a tremendous scoring threat. The highest points per game he averaged was 18.7. Then a few seasons at 16. Isiah was scoring 17-20 his whole career. Plus two championships. Kidds low FG% hurts him, only .400 for his career.

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Stockton
4. Isiah
5. Cousy

Then you've got Nash, Archibald, Payton. Payton I think has to be top 10 all time. But Kidds probably done enough to put him at 6 or 7. Assuming West isnt a point guard, lol.

VitoCo1972

I'm not a Jason Kidd fan per se so this will be my last post on the topic, but again, if you had to put together a team to beat the aliens for Earth's survival and you have only the greatest of all time on your team, you don't need a 1 that scores 20+/game. You have that in your wings. You need a 2 that is crazy good and can make shots or get to the rim whenever (Jordan), a 3 that plays incredible defense but can hit open 3's and start the break (LeBron), a rebounding 4 who runs the break and can post up (Duncan/Malone) and a center that gets every rebound available and can stop the other team at the rim (Russell). And at PG you need a guy with the vision and knowhow to find every one of them and realize that you don't need to get 10-12 shots up to be effective. Yes, there are a couple of choices, but for this particular team, Jason Kidd would be Number 1. He may not be the best PG ever but he's the best fit PG on a team of superstars ever. That counts for something. It's also telling that they picked him to play in the 2008 Olympics when he was easily the oldest guy on the team. He's exactly what they needed.

I agree Magic is #1. I don't think Big O and West fit in this discussion. Isiah, Stockton and Kidd are really the next three in some order.

Edited to add, I'm a HUGE Celtics fan, but the reason Cousy isn't in this discussion is that he shot the ball 18 times a game and shot 37%. That would murder a team in the current game. It would be more appropriate to call him one of the greatest passers ever as opposed to one of the best PGs.