Where did this coin come from?!

BustHalfBrian

Up for auction at the next Long Beach. No pedigree or info about the coin's origin noted in the description.

Does this happen often? A 100k, top pop coin with no provenance...


HA auction

savoyspecial

there are many great coins lurking out there that have not been married to plastic (yet)

PCcoins

<< <i>there are many great coins lurking out there that have not been married to plastic (yet) >>





+1

Broadstruck

Not sure but I can't find the Gallery Mint "COPY" stamp anywhere

Surprisingly the trip to the dipping jar still left some crud in the lines of the shield.

PerryHall

<< <i>Not sure but I can't find the Gallery Mint "COPY" stamp anywhere

Surprisingly the trip to the dipping jar still left some crud in the lines of the shield. >>



Yup. Looks like it's been dipped. Yet, PCGS and CAC apparently liked it. A silver coin over two hundred years old looks unnatural without some toning. As far as its provenance (not pedigree---that's for dogs and horses) being listed on the label, I thought the coin had to come from a famous collection or from a famous owner before the grading services would list it on the label.

halfhunter

Dipped or not . . . That is one helluva 200 year old chunk of metal ! ! !

HH

coin22lover

Wow...

DanielBoone

Beautiful luster but I would have liked to have seen the coin with its natural toning before it was dipped.

PerryHall

<< <i>Beautiful luster but I would have liked to have seen the coin with its natural toning before it was dipped. >>



I'm guessing the toning was less than attractive and it was dipped for that reason. I wonder how many points the dipping added to the grade. Eye appeal is a grading factor for mint state coins, after all.

CaptHenway

<< <i>Beautiful luster but I would have liked to have seen the coin with its natural toning before it was dipped. >>

keets

Dipped or not . . . That is one helluva 200 year old chunk of metal ! ! !

not being critical of the poster of this thought, but of the mindset which it represents.

here we have a coin which has without a doubt been dipped(unless you believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy) yet it is adored because it's a Classic issue. were this a much more Modern design it would be ridiculed and the practice of dipping denounced.

hey, I'm just sayin'........................

crypto79

I suspect it was recently made more than recently discovered. I suspect it came from an older 65 holder

tradedollarnut

I think it looks great. I can definitely appreciate a single lustrous but dipped classic coin - I just wouldn't want my entire collection to look that way!

BryceM

Every once in a while pretty interesting coins show up at auction. This one counts!

Dipped? Almost certainly. The thought that it was recently dipped and "made 67+" is an interesting one. The dip must have been at least a few years ago (or incomplete), as there is some peripheral rim toning that can be seen. In any case, it seems to still be nicely lusterous considering its age.

As to the sanctity of dipping coins like this, I suppose everyone already has their own opinions. Being able to compare its pre-dip look would promote an intersting discussion. I'll just suggest that it's still a fantastic coin and a number of bidders will certainly treat it accordingly.

CoinZip

It amazes me that they did not go the couple extra bucks for Attribution on that coin.

JRocco

<< <i>I suspect it was recently made more than recently discovered. I suspect it came from an older 65 holder >>


This.

I bet if someone knew where to look they could find this coin in a plastic holder with a lower grade pre-dip

DoubleEagle59

<< <i>Not sure but I can't find the Gallery Mint "COPY" stamp anywhere

Surprisingly the trip to the dipping jar still left some crud in the lines of the shield. >>



Yes..dipped alright and rewarded for it too.

I bet you $100 pre-dip it would have never even made it to ms66.

keyman64

Holy Cow! I want!

AnkurJ

Too white for me.

BustHalfBrian

<< <i>I suspect it was recently made more than recently discovered. I suspect it came from an older 65 holder >>



This definitely crossed my mind, and you're probably right.

Man, imagine the reaction of whomever submitted it when they saw the grade jump!

crypto79

<< <i>

<< <i>I suspect it was recently made more than recently discovered. I suspect it came from an older 65 holder >>



This definitely crossed my mind, and you're probably right.

Man, imagine the reaction of whomever submitted it when they saw the grade jump! >>



I bet they knew they scored immediately after the bath but lost their mind when the grades came in. It is a stunning coin in all honestly, remarkable survivor which is what you would expect for the grade, very few coins that old would dip that clean which also speaks to its preservation, the original toning had to be light and even.

ricko

Beautiful coin.... I like it this way....Cheers, RickO

daOnlyBG

This might sound a little naïve, but is it really likely that a dipped/faked coin gets past both PCGS and CAC? If so, how often do you think it happens? (i.e., out of 100 cleaned/faked/"problem" coins, how many get past the TPG?)

CuKevin

In response to BG, I have seen a few dipped coins get past CAC and plenty more go into TPG/PCGS holders. I didn't see anyone call it a fake though, and I doubt that would get past them.

IMHO, the coin shouldn't have been dipped. Now it is very obvious, and will likely turn in the holder to something not worthy of the market grade it was given this time. I am surprised it got into a holder or didn't get dinged more for this obvious unnatural look.

daOnlyBG

<< <i>I am surprised it got into a holder or didn't get dinged more for this obvious unnatural look. >>


Yeah- hence my question. Thanks for your input though. I've never really seen a dipped coin go into a PCGS CAC holder, but I haven't been collecting for long either. I'm just surprised it got such a prestigious label.

crypto79

<< <i>

<< <i>I am surprised it got into a holder or didn't get dinged more for this obvious unnatural look. >>


Yeah- hence my question. Thanks for your input though. I've never really seen a dipped coin go into a PCGS CAC holder, but I haven't been collecting for long either. I'm just surprised it got such a prestigious label. >>




Dipping does not preclude a PCGS, NGC holder or a CAC sticker. All CAC states is it is highend as to a point that it meets their standards and they would make an offer on it. While they do have high standards they just market grade and the market is ok and always has been ok with dipping as long as not over done. You say you have never seen a PCGS CAC coin that has been dipped; I say you clearly don't know what dipped coins look like then. Most of the coins in holder have been processed to some extent and truly original coins are not close to the majority and actually pretty rare for many series.

Originality's importance is overstated and most people don't want dark dirty coins and speak with their wallets. The TPGs grade based off of these market standards as well. As long as coins are net graded for darkness and luster is factored into a coin's technical grade, coins will have the layers of time stripped off of them to expose the glimmering metal underneath to boost luster and market eye appeal. Tone and skin which are hall marks of originality at the end of the day are only required in small doses for a coin to be all there and people often refer to a light 2nd or 3rd skin as proof of originality. The whole system is nuts and ripe with hypocrisy

LindeDad

One has to wonder if this is a 1% restoration service product?

Edit to the fact that restoration is 4% not 1% as I was thinking.

Broadstruck

<< <i>One has to wonder if this is a 1% restoration service product? >>



If so they forgot to repaint it... Oops my bad the "restoration" part always makes me think of antique cars

WoodenJefferson

Minty fresh!

stealer

<< <i>In response to BG, I have seen a few dipped coins get past CAC and plenty more go into TPG/PCGS holders. I didn't see anyone call it a fake though, and I doubt that would get past them. >>


There are plenty of PCGS and CAC'd coins that have seen their duly time in a dip solution. I have a few of them myself.

All the early 19th century material with nice album toning have been dipped at least once. How else would it develop album toning without hitting the reset button?

CuKevin

<< <i>
All the early 19th century material with nice album toning have been dipped at least once. How else would it develop album toning without hitting the reset button? >>



Is this a correct statement? I think this is false because toning is a form of thin film interference. The coin should not have been needed to have been "reset" to develop album toning.

EDITED due to accidental double quotes.

magikbilly

<< <i>

<< <i>I suspect it was recently made more than recently discovered. I suspect it came from an older 65 holder >>


This.

I bet if someone knew where to look they could find this coin in a plastic holder with a lower grade pre-dip >>



TDN had done something like this with Trade Dollars in the past.

Eric

tradedollarnut

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I suspect it was recently made more than recently discovered. I suspect it came from an older 65 holder >>


This.

I bet if someone knew where to look they could find this coin in a plastic holder with a lower grade pre-dip >>



TDN had done something like this with Trade Dollars in the past.

Eric >>



Huh?

magikbilly

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I suspect it was recently made more than recently discovered. I suspect it came from an older 65 holder >>


This.

I bet if someone knew where to look they could find this coin in a plastic holder with a lower grade pre-dip >>



TDN had done something like this with Trade Dollars in the past.

Eric >>



Huh? >>



I'm sorry for being unclear - I simply meant I recall your finding old catalog pics of Trades that had once been toned and then...were not. Nothing more :-) Perhaps I am mistaken.

Best,
Eric

stealer

<< <i>

<< <i>
All the early 19th century material with nice album toning have been dipped at least once. How else would it develop album toning without hitting the reset button? >>



Is this a correct statement? I think this is false because toning is a form of thin film interference. The coin should not have been needed to have been "reset" to develop album toning. >>


Take an "original" terminal state early date Bust/Seated Dime (as most of them should be after having been around for more than 150 years) and throw it in a brand new Wayte Raymond album. I bet it won't start turning the pretty colors you sometimes see in high grade PCGS/NGC + CAC holders even if you gave it a century.

TwoSides2aCoin

It came from the U.S. Mint as far as I can tell. Where it's been since is anyone's guess. Though we know where it is now and that's really all that matters.

CoinJunkie

That coin has no soul.

Broadstruck

<< <i>That coin has no soul. >>

mozin

It will be interesting to see how this dipped properly PCGS67+/CAC dollars out against the nicely toned NGC68/CAC. From what I have seen, the collectors with the deep pockets prefer nicely toned Busties, but PCGS holdered Busties bring more money than NGC Busties. I am looking at this coin to answer to these questions. Remember, most all top end Bustie collectors want PCGS holdered coins, and there is absolutely no guarantee, even with the CAC sticker, that this NGC 68 coin used in this comparison will even grade at PCGS.

Personally, I am not a gambling man, so I would rather own the PCGS holdered coin.

Brian, thanks for starting this thread.

PerryHall

<< <i>Too white for me. >>



Agree. A silver coin that is more than 200 years old should have some natural toning. It looks unnatural in its current state.

PerryHall

<< <i>One has to wonder if this is a 1% restoration service product? >>



Good point.

CaptHenway

<< <i>One has to wonder if this is a 1% restoration service product? >>



I'm sorry, but I am not familiar with the term.

kryptonitecomics

I might like it in hand but I don't like the coin per the pictures...the obverse looks like there are hits and toning spots on the face that make it looks over graded. Since it has been to PCGS and CAC...I assume that at least some of what I am seeing are artifacts based on less than stellar images. I have to agree with the others about the coin having an unnatural look though...

SoCalBigMark

I'm pretty sure in hand it would knock your socks off, if not, YOU have no soul!