Don, with all due respect, I don't think shutting down the distributors will stop the counterfeiting of slabs. Better to spend the money to keep changing slab anti-counterfeiting technology to stay a step ahead of them, just like the US Government is doing with currency, and the $100 bill in particular.
Counterfeiting of things has been going on for as long as there have been things worth counterfeiting. And PCGS isn't going to stop it if governments can't/don't.
However, in keeping with your request, I'll offer up www.ebay.com. Many of us would be happy to see this one shut down....
<< <i>seems like a much more worthy cause then trying to sue coin doctors... now where are genuine PCGS slabs manufactured ? >>
Curing an ailment is always better than treating symptoms however the 'sure thing' in this scenario is the coin doctors. They break laws and should be punished accordingly. Is the manufacturer of genuine slabs leaking product to the doctors? Separate issue, separate battle if it's indeed true.
Both are necessary IMO >>
What laws are being broken by coin doctors? I thought the issue was knowingly submitting doctored coins to PCGS in violation of the authorized dealer agreement?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I bought a 1908 Saint off Ebay in about 2001 from a guy in Florida. The Coin was very Cheesy looking even though it was in a PCGS slab. The look of the coin was so bad I just couldn't stand it.
Even though there was no stated return policy I asked if I could return it. To my complete surprise, permission was granted.
Looking back, I'm sure the Coin was a counterfeit in a counterfeit slab. You just don't always need to be an "expert " to know cheese when you see cheese.
Coin collecting used to be a popular and successful hobby. Many collectors have wondered aloud why there was so much in-fighting between competing "certification" companies, pcgs, ncg, icg, acg, etc. I have wondered for at least 20 years why collector's place such a premium on a PCGS holder. I would argue, these would be easy to duplicate, could flood the market, who would know? This goes on in the guitar industry, due to Far Eastern scum/copyists, the difference being, I can I.D. a phoney guitar, not so sure about a domestic coin.
Many of the holders are likely copies and illegitimate, as I'm sure many of the coins on the market are. There are people on these boards who brag and glorify the artistic necessity of artificial toning and dipping of coins. Is that so different than counterfeit plastic slabs?
I say PCGS should, in good faith, recall all of their slabs, verify them for authenticity and re-grade the coin as necessary. Otherwise, isnt the hobby ruined, because, who know's for certain what is real and what isn't? Maybe PCGS can ask President Obama to bail them out and start over, while he's still in office. Then we could all rest assured that we have REAL professional coin grading service coins.
<< <i>Coin collecting used to be a popular and successful hobby. Many collectors have wondered aloud why there was so much in-fighting between competing "certification" companies, pcgs, ncg, icg, acg, etc. I have wondered for at least 20 years why collector's place such a premium on a PCGS holder. I would argue, these would be easy to duplicate, could flood the market, who would know? This goes on in the guitar industry, due to Far Eastern scum/copyists, the difference being, I can I.D. a phoney guitar, not so sure about a domestic coin.
Many of the holders are likely copies and illegitimate, as I'm sure many of the coins on the market are. There are people on these boards who brag and glorify the artistic necessity of artificial toning and dipping of coins. Is that so different than counterfeit plastic slabs?
I say PCGS should, in good faith, recall all of their slabs, verify them for authenticity and re-grade the coin as necessary. Otherwise, isnt the hobby ruined, because, who know's for certain what is real and what isn't? Maybe PCGS can ask President Obama to bail them out and start over, while he's still in office. Then we could all rest assured that we have REAL professional coin grading service coins. >>
Superb selection of random gibberish from the newbie - welcome!
Good luck! I want to thank you sincerely for your hard work! These turd brains selling these fakes, and making them needs to stop. It could really put a harm on this wonderful hobby, so any effort you're doing will hopefully help. I know this is why my dad isn't collecting because he's afraid of how this will impact the longevity of numismatics.
I know this would be a pain for PCGS, but there is one thing you can do that would cripple (not kill) these "certified" fakes. It is something that I have been wanting you to do for a long time.
When a coin is submitted to PCGS, it is graded, slabbed, but more importantly, that graded slab is assigned a certification number. The problem though is that PCGS does "record" the association of the certification number with a owner. I don't know why.
I don't care if it is a dealer or myself, whomever sends in the coin for certification should be recorded as the owner.
The idea is that certification number will now ALWAYS be owned by one (and only one) owner.
Sure the slimballs can copy off the certification from a photo (like on Ebay) and reuse it. But win I buy the slimball's copy on Ebay, if I'm anywheres near smart I go to the PCGS website and try to have the number assigned to me.
Here is where something else has to change.... currently if I try to pickup a coin assigned to someone else, I either have to get the previous owner to unregister it (bad, I don't ever want it to be unregistered), or I have to send in the photos to prove that I actually have the coin. This process will have to tighten up, but I don't thick we should mind that to ensure we have an authentic coin.
First the transfer of the coin's ownership has to be a two person thing. I (the buyer) requests the reassignment to me. The seller has to release the coin to me. Alternatively, I (the buyer) requests the reassignment to me. But, after a decent waiting period to see if there is any negative response, I would have to submit the photos and PCGS can make the call and reassign the coin to me (or refuse).
At least in this way, when I get an email back from PCGS or the original owner saying that they still have the coin, I can go through Ebay or Paypal and get me money reimbursed.
I have no idea of what to do with the fake slab. Probably will have to send it back to the seller - sorry dude...
I can see in the future having to resort to a micro/nanochip inserted in the slab, or something along those lines. As long as the counterfeiters continue to make a profit, the rifraf will continue.
I didn't really understand your comment totally, but if you pickup a certified coin today into your inventory, and I query the certification, it doesn't tell me who has it, it just says someone has it. If I have it and another person has it, there is a little problem that I need to address. Either I get the current owner to release it to me or I get PCGS to release it to me. There could be fairly reliable rules developed.
I know it would be a little pain for sellers, but it sure would be nice to be able to buy a nice coin without having to worry the rest of your life that it might be a fake.
Last evening had a chance to view Ebay in Germany....wow, what an eye opener. All those cheap fake dollars (1799, 1804, 1906, etc) are all over that site. Hundreds of fakes. Looks like a lot of fake business has gone overseas.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
What is this world coming too... I guess everybody is trying to make a buck, just not legally with these websites selling counterfeit PCGS slabs. I hope they all get shutdown as this is just ridiculous IMO!!!
Yeah. For real. This makes me frikken sick. The Chinese, INCAPABLE of producing anything original, continue to copy, steal and hijack all products American. Yet they remain a "favored trading partner". Unbelievable.
To be honest - they are stealing everything from everyone - machine technology from Germany (same as car technology), military technology from Russia, design from Italy, France and many more... As long as the US owe them more, than able to pay back though - they WILL remain a "favored trading partner"...
Ah, and btw. - do not forget, these circumstances also grant China the allowance to ignore human or any other rights when necessary. >>
Can't buy a Cuban cigar -- or even sell Cuban coins on eBay that were made in USA decades before Castro... but China is our "most favored" trading partner...US government lets IBM sell its computer business to Lenovo, a Chinese government owned company...then this..
Researchers at Cambridge University have found that a microprocessor used extensively by the US military contains a backdoor built into the design allowing the chip to be reprogrammed. The chip is used in many systems including weapons, nuclear power plants and public transport. The "bug" is in the chip itself rather than the firmware, the only “fix” would be replacement.
Sergei Skorobogatov of Quo Vadis Labs at Cambridge University said of his backdoor discovery “Our aim was to perform advanced code breaking and to see if there were any unexpected features on the (US Military) chip. We scanned the silicon chip in an affordable time and found a previously unknown backdoor inserted by the manufacturer. This backdoor has a key, which we were able to extract. If you use this key you can disable the chip or reprogram it at will, even if locked by the user with their own key. This particular chip is prevalent in many systems from weapons, nuclear power plants to public transport. In other words, this backdoor access could be turned into an advanced Stuxnet weapon to attack potentially millions of systems. The scale and range of possible attacks has huge implications for National Security and public infrastructure.” >>
If I remember the story right, I think they were being accused of placing these chips in smart phones too - haven't heard anything on this lately.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
"The identity of this free member has been authenticated. However, their store name has not been verified yet."
Cat out of the bag:
"Welcome to my shop!I only sell replica coins for collections, none of the coins I sell are original. Please don't buy them as the original coins. I sell these copied coins only want to make your collections more perfect. About shipping: It takes about 20 to 30 days to carry to American, and 25 to 35 days to European and other countries. Hope you could wait for your items patiently. I will mail the coins to you in 10 business days after pay them, In order to receive them as soon as possible, please pay them as quickly as possible. Thank you, by the way you could contact me if you need EMS, Best wishes! Thanks!" >>
"The identity of this free member has been authenticated. However, their store name has not been verified yet."
Cat out of the bag:
"Welcome to my shop!I only sell replica coins for collections, none of the coins I sell are original. Please don't buy them as the original coins. I sell these copied coins only want to make your collections more perfect. About shipping: It takes about 20 to 30 days to carry to American, and 25 to 35 days to European and other countries. Hope you could wait for your items patiently. I will mail the coins to you in 10 business days after pay them, In order to receive them as soon as possible, please pay them as quickly as possible. Thank you, by the way you could contact me if you need EMS, Best wishes! Thanks!" >>
Comments
Counterfeiting of things has been going on for as long as there have been things worth counterfeiting. And PCGS isn't going to stop it if governments can't/don't.
However, in keeping with your request, I'll offer up www.ebay.com. Many of us would be happy to see this one shut down....
<< <i>
<< <i>seems like a much more worthy cause then trying to sue coin doctors... now where are genuine PCGS slabs manufactured ? >>
Curing an ailment is always better than treating symptoms however the 'sure thing' in this scenario is the coin doctors. They break laws and should be punished accordingly. Is the manufacturer of genuine slabs leaking product to the doctors? Separate issue, separate battle if it's indeed true.
Both are necessary IMO >>
What laws are being broken by coin doctors? I thought the issue was knowingly submitting doctored coins to PCGS in violation of the
authorized dealer agreement?
Even though there was no stated return policy I asked if I could return it. To my complete surprise, permission was granted.
Looking back, I'm sure the Coin was a counterfeit in a counterfeit slab. You just don't always need to be an "expert " to know cheese when you see cheese.
Many of the holders are likely copies and illegitimate, as I'm sure many of the coins on the market are. There are people on these boards who brag and glorify the artistic necessity of artificial toning and dipping of coins. Is that so different than counterfeit plastic slabs?
I say PCGS should, in good faith, recall all of their slabs, verify them for authenticity and re-grade the coin as necessary. Otherwise, isnt the hobby ruined, because, who know's for certain what is real and what isn't?
Maybe PCGS can ask President Obama to bail them out and start over, while he's still in office. Then we could all rest assured that we have REAL professional coin grading service coins.
<< <i>Coin collecting used to be a popular and successful hobby. Many collectors have wondered aloud why there was so much in-fighting between competing "certification" companies, pcgs, ncg, icg, acg, etc. I have wondered for at least 20 years why collector's place such a premium on a PCGS holder. I would argue, these would be easy to duplicate, could flood the market, who would know? This goes on in the guitar industry, due to Far Eastern scum/copyists, the difference being, I can I.D. a phoney guitar, not so sure about a domestic coin.
Many of the holders are likely copies and illegitimate, as I'm sure many of the coins on the market are. There are people on these boards who brag and glorify the artistic necessity of artificial toning and dipping of coins. Is that so different than counterfeit plastic slabs?
I say PCGS should, in good faith, recall all of their slabs, verify them for authenticity and re-grade the coin as necessary. Otherwise, isnt the hobby ruined, because, who know's for certain what is real and what isn't?
Maybe PCGS can ask President Obama to bail them out and start over, while he's still in office. Then we could all rest assured that we have REAL professional coin grading service coins. >>
Superb selection of random gibberish from the newbie - welcome!
When a coin is submitted to PCGS, it is graded, slabbed, but more importantly, that graded slab is assigned a certification number.
The problem though is that PCGS does "record" the association of the certification number with a owner. I don't know why.
I don't care if it is a dealer or myself, whomever sends in the coin for certification should be recorded as the owner.
The idea is that certification number will now ALWAYS be owned by one (and only one) owner.
Sure the slimballs can copy off the certification from a photo (like on Ebay) and reuse it. But win I buy the slimball's copy on Ebay, if I'm anywheres near smart I go to the PCGS website and try to have the number assigned to me.
Here is where something else has to change.... currently if I try to pickup a coin assigned to someone else, I either have to get the previous owner to unregister it (bad, I don't ever want it to be unregistered), or I have to send in the photos to prove that I actually have the coin. This process will have to tighten up, but I don't thick we should mind that to ensure we have an authentic coin.
First the transfer of the coin's ownership has to be a two person thing.
I (the buyer) requests the reassignment to me. The seller has to release the coin to me.
Alternatively, I (the buyer) requests the reassignment to me. But, after a decent waiting period to see if there is any negative response, I would have to submit the photos and PCGS can make the call and reassign the coin to me (or refuse).
At least in this way, when I get an email back from PCGS or the original owner saying that they still have the coin, I can go through Ebay or Paypal and get me money reimbursed.
I have no idea of what to do with the fake slab. Probably will have to send it back to the seller - sorry dude...
Dang fingers.....
<< <i>The problem though is that PCGS does NOT "record" the association of the certification number with a owner. I don't know why. >>
If PCGS starts recording my name alongside X number of $20 generic DE's, they'll get cracked out real fast.
I know it would be a little pain for sellers, but it sure would be nice to be able to buy a nice coin without having to worry the rest of your life that it might be a fake.
(1799, 1804, 1906, etc) are all over that site. Hundreds of fakes. Looks like a lot of fake business has gone
overseas.
bob
best of luck PCGS!
<< <i>
<< <i>
Yeah. For real. This makes me frikken sick. The Chinese, INCAPABLE of producing anything original, continue to copy, steal and hijack all products American. Yet they remain a "favored trading partner". Unbelievable.
To be honest - they are stealing everything from everyone - machine technology from Germany (same as car technology), military technology from Russia, design from Italy, France and many more...
As long as the US owe them more, than able to pay back though - they WILL remain a "favored trading partner"...
Ah, and btw. - do not forget, these circumstances also grant China the allowance to ignore human or any other rights when necessary. >>
Can't buy a Cuban cigar -- or even sell Cuban coins on eBay that were made in USA decades before Castro... but China is our "most favored" trading partner...US government lets
IBM sell its computer business to Lenovo, a Chinese government owned company...then this..
Researchers at Cambridge University have found that a microprocessor used extensively by the US military contains a backdoor built into the design allowing the chip to be reprogrammed. The chip is used in many systems including weapons, nuclear power plants and public transport. The "bug" is in the chip itself rather than the firmware, the only “fix” would be replacement.
Sergei Skorobogatov of Quo Vadis Labs at Cambridge University said of his backdoor discovery “Our aim was to perform advanced code breaking and to see if there were any unexpected features on the (US Military) chip. We scanned the silicon chip in an affordable time and found a previously unknown backdoor inserted by the manufacturer. This backdoor has a key, which we were able to extract. If you use this key you can disable the chip or reprogram it at will, even if locked by the user with their own key. This particular chip is prevalent in many systems from weapons, nuclear power plants to public transport. In other words, this backdoor access could be turned into an advanced Stuxnet weapon to attack potentially millions of systems. The scale and range of possible attacks has huge implications for National Security and public infrastructure.” >>
If I remember the story right, I think they were being accused of placing these chips in smart phones too - haven't heard anything on this lately.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>PCGS Store?
"The identity of this free member has been authenticated. However, their store name has not been verified yet."
Cat out of the bag:
"Welcome to my shop!I only sell replica coins for collections, none of the coins I sell are original. Please don't buy them as the original coins. I sell these copied coins only want to make your collections more perfect. About shipping: It takes about 20 to 30 days to carry to American, and 25 to 35 days to European and other countries. Hope you could wait for your items patiently. I will mail the coins to you in 10 business days after pay them, In order to receive them as soon as possible, please pay them as quickly as possible. Thank you, by the way you could contact me if you need EMS, Best wishes! Thanks!" >>
Same wording in body of listings but different store number
also note similar named stores on same site... e.g. Mrs. Liu
<< <i>PCGS Store?
"The identity of this free member has been authenticated. However, their store name has not been verified yet."
Cat out of the bag:
"Welcome to my shop!I only sell replica coins for collections, none of the coins I sell are original. Please don't buy them as the original coins. I sell these copied coins only want to make your collections more perfect. About shipping: It takes about 20 to 30 days to carry to American, and 25 to 35 days to European and other countries. Hope you could wait for your items patiently. I will mail the coins to you in 10 business days after pay them, In order to receive them as soon as possible, please pay them as quickly as possible. Thank you, by the way you could contact me if you need EMS, Best wishes! Thanks!" >>
Same wording in body of listings but different store number
also note similar named stores on same site... e.g. Mrs. Liu