The grading is as tight as I have ever seen it.

RonBurgundy

I don't chime in much anymore, but thought I'd offer my perspective on PSA grading recently. Before I offer my opinion, let me just say that PSA is perfectly entitled to do whatever they like with regards to grading. They are the industry leader.

That said, the grading is as tight as I have ever seen it. At best, it's extremely tough and you do not get the benefit of the doubt on anything and at worst, it's comical. The hypertechnical stuff they are nailing cards on is off the charts. Cards that should 8 are now 7's, and in some cases 6's. In the last 6 months, I have had a dozen cards that have come back 6's twice that 3 dealers who submit far more than me can find nothing wrong with. Go figure.

Like a lot of members here, I know what I'm doing when I submit cards. I didn't suddenly lose the ability to evaluate cards after a decade. But this is extremely frustrating; it's tiresome to have to fight to get cards into the correct holders and there are others who submit far more than I who feel similarly.

While I am not pleased, I'll survive. I'll submit less and actually I already have; about a year ago I instituted a "third review" on my own to weed out anything that could even be remotely construed as an issue before I submitted. And it still continues; I have a stack of 30 cards that I honestly have no clue what the problem is. So the end result is, I'll submit less and look for other ways to enjoy the hobby.

I understand not everyone will agree with this opinion and that's fine. It's meant to stimulate debate; but I also think there are others who may share my opinion, and frustration.


Best regards to all.

vintageinvestments

It's definitely a craps shoot. Just re-crack and re-sub.....6s turn to 8s sometimes and I even had a 4 go to a 7 once! I like to collect and by and sell low to mid grade raw stuff. Easier to buy more and to sell when you need to sell it.

ClockworkAngel

The funny thing is that the reason PSA is the industry leader is that they have the highest standards. I think if they handed out 9's and 10's regularly they'd lose market share. It's just an odd position to be in, because the tougher they are on grading the better for business. The more 10's they give out on the hardcore expensive cards the less valuable those cards will be and the less relevant PSA will be...

It is an industry and business unlike any other!

RonBurgundy

I respect that view but the point of being an industry leader is to adhere to the standards that are set forth for evaluating cards, not to be a grading tough guy to assert dominance over the business.

If the goal is to find reasons to reject cards to preserve the relative rarity of cards that are already into holders, then I don't want any part of that. And I'd find it hard to believe that PSA would ever do that, somehow crack down on new submissions because it would somehow threaten market value of cards already in holders.

Boopotts

<< <i>I respect that view but the point of being an industry leader is to adhere to the standards that are set forth for evaluating cards, not to be a grading tough guy to assert dominance over the business.

>>



What makes you so sure that this is the point?

grote15

I have not recently experienced any unusual strictness in grading, and would echo Guy's question.

gemint

I don't know. I think it has more to do with the grader. I recently submitted 1,050 cards. They were split into two orders. On the 450 card order, I got 19 10s. On the 600 card order, I got 11 10s and fewer 9s. They all came from the same stock.

grote15

<< <i>I don't know. I think it has more to do with the grader. I recently submitted 1,050 cards. They were split into two orders. On the 450 card order, I got 19 10s. On the 600 card order, I got 11 10s and fewer 9s. They all came from the same stock. >>



The grader is definitely a factor, especially if you are talking about higher grades, where most people can't really discern a noticable difference between a 9 and a 10. Your first order was probably a bit more generously appraised, with the second order being more towards the status quo.

mygotta

PSA is in the business of making the rare even rarer. They have to follow the same rules as the baseball card business in general. The fact that BCCG hands out 10's on the dollar lends no credibility or value to the card and is a waste of money in the long run. It is ultimately a ploy, or a gimmick type of operation. There is no authority in their grading and so they command no respect either. PSA on the hand has earned the hobby favor and respect, and so buyers are willing to pay. And so cards that are hard to come by, and even harder to find in a PSA 10 grade, makes them valuable.

cardbender

I just submitted two smaller bulk orders at the Sun-Times show in March. One order hasn't popped yet,
but on the first order popped in a week and PSA graded them 95% accurately in my opinion. A few friends
sent cards in on my order as they are not members and couldn't get the collectors club special rate.
I looked over all the cards before and after grading.

On this order I found 4-5 cards that were under graded by one full grade. Three cards were over graded
by one full grade. The balance of the 115 or so cards were graded right on the money. No complaints
from me at all. Plus I was very happy with the quick turnaround time on the submission. Six business
days to grade a bulk order is terrific.

This is only a small sample size, but to me PSA seems to be getting it right as of now.

I really think it boils down to different graders having slightly different opinions on
some flaws. Some may deduct these tiny flaws more than some other graders and
that's why there's some consistency issues along the way.

There have been other times in the past, when I felt PSA was grading tightly, but right now isn't
one of those times. At least not from what I've seen on my order.

I also had a six card BGS 9.5 crossover order on which three of the six crossed to PSA 10's.
That's right about what I figured they would do.

Stooge

I just recently sent in 12 cards with "Thedutymon". 6 cards were from the 1982 Donruss MASH series and I received 2 Mint 9's and 4 GM 10's. The other 6 were Space 1999 and I received 1 GM 10, 3 Mint 9's, 1 NM 8, and an 9OC. These I believe were right on the money because I knew that I had some questionable Space 1999 cards compared to the MASH.

In the past I received 1 PSA 10 MASH card for every 6 cards I sent in. I'm either getting better at my card selection, or PSA is getting LESS strict. I believe that I'm getting more selective myself.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my latest results and my opinion.

Paul.

ezyshooter

I've noticed this as well. Cards that should be a minimum of 1 grade higher. If you ask me if PSA keeps doing this they will be laying off a lot of people. I'm almost to the point of never renewing my membership and selling my extra cards ungraded.
I've seen a lot of success on e-bay selling cards ungraded from other people. I recently bought a card that was advertised as nearmint+ Paid a lot of money for it. Paid to have it graded and it came back a PSA 5.5 ?? Thought for sure it was a gimme PSA 7 with a chance of a PSA 7.5
I got my money back because I kept in contact with seller and told him what I was planning on doing. Wish I had a pic to show you but card was already shipped back to seller.
I refuse to send cards in twice anymore and if this is the new trend where 7's and 8's are the new 9's then they won't be seeing anymore of my money for grading. I can see missing something on a card here or there but this is ridiculous.
I've gotten better weeding out the cards and it seems the cards I have been submitting are better then usual and i'm getting lower grades and in some cases not worth the submitting fees the first time let alone a second time.
I don't send in a lot of cards, usually 250 a year on the average but if more people stop sending cards in then they won't need as many graders.
Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Steve

ezyshooter

Must add if you are sending newer cards then sure the grades might fit. I am talking about early 1970's and older.
Steve

RonBurgundy

Guy - I never said that it was.

BaltimoreYankee

I agree with Burgundy here. I have many PSA graded cards in my collection that have higher grades but look worse than cards I have self-subbed.

I do not agree with vintage at all that the answer is to crack and re-sub. That costs money.

The problem was illustrated perfectly by gemint (a submitter with much more experience than me) who split a large order and got very different results. It is the grader. Everyone is different and that's why there will be no consistency. The real answer may be to stop self submitting and just buy cards that are already graded.

itzagoner

i've sent in a grand total of 500 cards in the past 12 months. i could've done that in a blink of an eye some years ago.....over and over again.

big bulk days are done for me and i've become slightly more selective about grading, or at least considering it.

the attraction has changed as more and more people embrace the concept of enjoying raw cards, i will enjoy supplying them when i can.

my PSA results have been almost exactly as expected with a few that could probably stand a review due to the "fallback position" of having received a grade which was 1/2 a point too low IMO.

after the fiasco of last year and the interminable wait times, i sense improvement in the overall process.

i could try to analyze why everyone gets different results from different expectations, but at some particular junction, each of us learns just how to play this game, even if you are an old dog who must learn new tricks.

stormtrooper80

So with RonBurgundy's theory, cards that receive high grades right now should carry hefty premiums over cards graded years ago. Do you also claim this?

itzagoner

i've seen some of the work done years ago, presumably when they were still figuring out how to apply grades appropriately.

it's humorous. comparing then to now, i'll take now.

Brick

Perhaps they are tired of seeing all the "This is a 10?" threads.

bbuckner22

I will echo what Gemint said. Recently had a 1000+ card order cut in half. All the cards were from the same source. The first half comes back 8, 9, & 10 and the second pop at 7, 8, & a few 9's. That tells me it's the grader, not the policy. Crack and re-sub? That comes to a lot of cash on 500 cards.

OcTrAdInG

<< <i>So with RonBurgundy's theory, cards that receive high grades right now should carry hefty premiums over cards graded years ago. Do you also claim this? >>



I was going to refrain from comment here, but I felt inclined to respond to this post, especially since I agree with Ron's general feelings and concerns about current PSA grading.


I can't speak for Ron on this, but as a buyer of high-end vintage cards myself, I've adjusted my mindset. Yes, it has always been important to buy cards and not holders. However, I am finding that an increasing number and % of my best purchases reside in newer PSA holders. Understand that I've bought quite a few cards with older flips only to be disappointed when the cards have come into my possession. There are a number of reasons for this, but based on my collection and experience, PSA has undoubtedly given a little more leeway for certain flaws in the past. Do the cards graded recently carry hefty premiums? The answer to that question is not so simple, but I will say that I've paid hefty premiums for cards I felt to be under-graded. It is to the point now where I generally feel more comfortable purchasing cards with newer flips.

Goldlabels

It seems like a crap shoot at times. The only problem or beef I have with psa recently is they no longer point to what is wrong with your card on review orders. You would think that if you pay for a review service they should tell you why it didn't bump.

PSARich

I would agree that generally grading seems to be a little tougher in the past year. I say "generally" because I have had orders that I felt were pretty much on target but then others that came back a grade or so less than I felt they deserved. I really haven't noticed overgrading at all on cards I sent in. Like many of you, I have been sending cards to PSA for many years and I feel that I have become pretty good at evaluating cards before submitting. There were years when I would predict the grades on the cards I sent with each order. When I became about 80%-90% accurate, I stopped, thinking I knew what I was doing. Now I think not so much. I have requested some reviews and PSA has adjusted a few grades when viewed by another grader. And, of course I have cracked and re-submitted with varying degrees of success.

I think there are several reasons why we might be seeing a tighter interpretation of the grading standards.

- There are many cards over the years that have probably received inflated grades (this is going to happen when PSA or any company grades millions of cards). Sometimes when this happens, the card shows up on this or other message boards with "How did this card get an10? "or a 9? A nice big scan that details a flaw and then everyone rips on PSA or BGS or SGC. That is certainly not positive PR for any grading company so I am guessing it causes PSA or whoever to review and encourage graders to be more careful in their evaluations.

- I believe grading companies missed many altered cards early on in their services. In other words, training to spot trimming, cleaning, and other alterations was in its infancy (much like dealing with steroids in professional sports). Training and knowledge of graders is now much better, technology support is greater, and alteration trends over the years have become very apparent. Because of this, I believe we are seeing many more cards being sent back as "evidence of trimming" and "minimum size requirement". PSA is just not taking chances when it comes to putting altered or under/over sized cards in holders. Therefore, if there is any question in the grader's mind at all, that trimming may have occured...no grade.

- This last one may or may not be accurate. There is so much difference between vintage cards and modern cards in terms of what is high grade. The edges, cuts, surface, color, gloss, print registration, centering, etc. is night and day when you compare a 1956 Topps with a 1976 Topps or 1996 Topps. I believe a grader has to interpret the grading standards differently when looking at cards from different eras. In other words, the grading standards stay the same but what a nice edge on a 1954 Topps cards looks like compared to the edges on a 1984 Topps cards are strikingly different. Graders need to be able to adjust their expectation level for the various data points for grading. Now I have heard but don't know for sure that PSA has graders that specialize in vintage, or modern, etc and are assigned orders to grade accordingly, but I do not know this for a fact. If that is true, then I am probably incoreect with this theory.

Lastly, although I agree with Ron regarding the question he has put forth, I am not sure it is a bad thing. I believe grading may go through some cycles as it lands on a more concensus interpretation of standards. We would all like to have consistency in grading and we certainly do not enjoy re-submitting cards at an additional cost because we think we are right and the first grader was wrong. However, there is subjectivity to grading that is always a factor. This we cannot control and as hard as PSA might try, there will always be some variance displayed by different graders...hopefully to a lesser and lesser degree over time.

PaulThePirate

Oh tight be as tight does. whinin' be worse than church goin', philanthropy, or damagin' a matey's sword. Don't ye be a hobby heavyweight?

CubsKiller99

<< <i>I don't know. I think it has more to do with the grader. I recently submitted 1,050 cards. They were split into two orders. On the 450 card order, I got 19 10s. On the 600 card order, I got 11 10s and fewer 9s. They all came from the same stock. >>



+1

There appears to me to be a certain quirky randomness to the upper end of the grading scale that I suspect
has more to do with the whims of the grader than anything else.

I'm going to do a crackout and resub soon of some of my 9s to test this.

CubsKiller99

<< <i>PSA is in the business of making the rare even rarer. They have to follow the same rules as the baseball card business in general. The fact that BCCG hands out 10's on the dollar lends no credibility or value to the card and is a waste of money in the long run. It is ultimately a ploy, or a gimmick type of operation. There is no authority in their grading and so they command no respect either. PSA on the hand has earned the hobby favor and respect, and so buyers are willing to pay. And so cards that are hard to come by, and even harder to find in a PSA 10 grade, makes them valuable. >>



+1

Beckett hurt themselves immeasurably with their BBCG grading, PSA wants to retain
integrity and they're doing it.

I understand the need for PSA to be "tough" at the higher end of the scale, but the
apparent random nature of PSA 9 versus 10 concerns me.

I use special lighting and magnification and other visual techniques before I submit
potential 10s and I'll be damned if I can tell the difference MOST of the time.

In some respects PSA is dealing in the thrill of the chase for these cards,
which is what I absolutely hate about the company that Topps has evolved into.

olb31

i have been through the same thing that ron has been through. i used to think along the same lines. however after thinking about it, why would the grader really care if the card is a 10 its a 10, if its not its not. the only time i think that psa might do some collaboration on an item would be a very significant card. do they really care if your 1982 topps ripken is a 10 or not and they are out to get you, doubt it.

mattinglymint23

<< <i>It seems like a crap shoot at times. The only problem or beef I have with psa recently is they no longer point to what is wrong with your card on review orders. You would think that if you pay for a review service they should tell you why it didn't bump. >>



Agree! I recently wrote an email following my last sub to PSA on this point. If people are paying money and renewing memberships, PSA owes the member community some transparency.
My last few subs have 7/8s that I feel are under graded. I won't re-submit but will enjoy knowing that my perfectly centered glossy 70's cards are in sealed plastic holders.

CubsKiller99

<< <i>Oh tight be as tight does. whinin' be worse than church goin', philanthropy, or damagin' a matey's sword. Don't ye be a hobby heavyweight? >>



Touche. Point taken.

markmac

I just had a free submission of 15 cards come back. I thought they all should be 9's and 10's and for the most part they were. I did get 3 PSA 8's on Wrestling Wonderama cards from 1988 that I can't understand. They were blazers. I also sent in a rare starting lineup card which had some residue on it that I was hoping for a 4 or 5. It came back an 8. I was shocked. So it's definitely a crap shoot.

WalterSobchak

I just sent in a nice '59 Clemente that I had cracked out of a PSA 7 holder, secure in the knowledge that on the absolute worst possible day, I would still have a PSA 7.

I am now the proud owner of an absolutely exquisite PSA 6 '59 Bob.

Boopotts

<< <i>I just sent in a nice '59 Clemente that I had cracked out of a PSA 7 holder, secure in the knowledge that on the absolute worst possible day, I would still have a PSA 7.

I am now the proud owner of an absolutely exquisite PSA 6 '59 Bob. >>



Looks like you stole a move from my playbook.

soundgard

SGC has gotten really strict over the last 3-4 years. I cracked out a 54 Aaron PSA 6 and it came back a SGC 5.

Mapleleaf

<< <i>I don't know. I think it has more to do with the grader. I recently submitted 1,050 cards. They were split into two orders. On the 450 card order, I got 19 10s. On the 600 card order, I got 11 10s and fewer 9s. They all came from the same stock. >>



I watched PSA's grading video which showed them breaking up submissions into small lots so that many different graders would be involved on a large order of 450 or 600 cards so that no one grader could influence the grades you received to a large degree. Have they changed this policy?

swartz1

just talk...no pics...

Mickey71

I agree with Ron on this. Here is my guess to all of this, and this was slightly brought up.....I think subs are going all over the place with graders////modern graders having to grade 50's and 60's cards in my mind is a disaster and I believe this is happening on a regular basis.