<< <i>He has struggled in the first inning. He, and every baseball fan in America, is aware of it. He's smart and will figure it out.
His ERA is 3.16. He gets the third worst run support in MLB (1.83). That's why his record is what it is.
If he actually got run support, and was 3-1, would this be an issue? >>
+1
A pitcher's won/loss record has very little to do with his effectiveness and much more to do with the support of the team and how good (or not) they are playing.
Focusing on his ERA in the first inning is akin to saying a hitter bats .190 when it's cloudy out. We need to look at the complete picture.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I think they're still printing Greenwell, Jefferies, and Justice rookie cards.
Nick >>
I think Topps may still be doing that. Hell they print everything else and have 45 year-olds busting packs in the local cardshop looking for hidden gold while the 10-year olds that can't afford those cards pass by the shop heading for used the video game store to get some real entertainment.
The hobby has done a 180-degree spin move worthy of Michael Jordan.
The previous post said "remember when we collected cards of players for no other reason, than they were our heroes."
Well those players still are bigger than life for me personally and I don't collect post 1980 cards but I do collect these guys: Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Kaline, Yaz, Killebrew, Gibson, Seaver.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
<< <i>He has struggled in the first inning. He, and every baseball fan in America, is aware of it. He's smart and will figure it out.
His ERA is 3.16. He gets the third worst run support in MLB (1.83). That's why his record is what it is.
If he actually got run support, and was 3-1, would this be an issue? >>
+1
A pitcher's won/loss record has very little to do with his effectiveness and much more to do with the support of the team and how good (or not) they are playing.
Focusing on his ERA in the first inning is akin to saying a hitter bats .190 when it's cloudy out. We need to look at the complete picture. >>
I don't disagree about the run support issue...but that said, sometimes it's hard to boost morale and get motivated when your starter can't find the plate for the first 1 or 2 innings. Even as a Cards fan I realize he's a talented guy... but something's amiss because it seems he's consistent as far as the bad start thing. Just saying.
<< <i>Strasburg is now a crisp 1 - 5 after giving up 4 runs through 5 innings today at home vs. the Cubs and getting outdueled by.......Edwin Jackson. >>
All four runs unearned which lowered his era to 3.10 but he still is a poor 1-5
I collect Seattle Pilots autographs, 1969 Topps autographs, Signed Mickey Mantle Home Run History cards and have a JC Martin collection (he was my college Baseball coach) Doug
I can't even begin to tell you how many potential "Hall of Fame" pitchers had a great start to their career and then, for whatever reasons, fell into the abyss.
Can you say Fernando? I saw an interview recently about the guy that was going to make everyone forget Koufax. And for about 5 seasons we did.
Serious money spent on Strasburg right now is a serious mistake unless you have serious money to lose.
But if you feel lucky and can get his cards cheap then by all means go for it.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
Fernando had 6 or 7 very good years. Strasburg isn't even close to Fernando yet. Fernando had 20 complete games in about his 5th or 6th season. Strasburg won't have 20 for his career. Seriously though check out Fernando's status. 8 shutouts in strike shortened '81. Awesome!
Of course the reality is ANY player can have a great season or two and then stuff happens. Or maybe not. Maybe Straburg will bounce back. Apparently he is not pitching horrible. However, I have to imagine the guys that invested huge money in his cards must be a little nervous; rightly or wrongly.
Do people really invest in cards...I remember mcgwire gem 85 topps and griffey 89 upperdecks going north of 2k. Outside of the very rare T206 high grades, high grade mantles and some low pop pre 80's hof gem mint rc I cannot believe anyone would consider cards an investment. I think the pre 86 can be viewed as a hedge against inflation but very skeptical on people considering cards an investment. What other investment does not have the ability to throw off cash flow and has a transaction cost of 11-12% to sell.
Only one pitcher from the 80s until today has held their value from the first time their cards got "hot" and that's Mariano Rivera (which took 2 decades of straight dominating). Think of Pedro, Hoffman, Smoltz, Mussina, Maddux, Randy Johnson, Clemens.... all arguably had HOF careers but none have held their value. That should tell you something about the investment potential of ANY pitcher, and it really has very little to do with what they do on the field. Because the second they have a big injury or less than dominating year the cards will plummet and never recover unless they come back to win multiple Cy Young's.
Oh, hey Tim Lincecum collectors..... sorry, didn't see you there. How's it going?
CDSnuts -- you make a good point that people seem to neglect. By and large pitcher cards are not as valued as position players, and if you look at post-WWII cards especially this is true. The iconic Topps rookie cards of the 50s and 60s for example are for the most part NOT pitchers. Not that these non-pitchers are the be-all and end-all of investment-grade cards, but they set the trend.
Someone asked if people still invest in cards. They do, but mostly they are very high end rookie cards for post-WWII and pre-war they are the blue-chip hall of famers: Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Wagner, etc.
It's supply/demand as in all collectibile markets and nothing since 1952 is particularly rare (just because you don't see a card for sale often is no indication of it's rarity -- people hold onto some cards a lot more than others) so demand drives almost all of the market.
Topps attempts to create "rarity" with their numbered cards and autos but I beleive that this kind of market manipulation is going to backfire. They're not getting the younger generation and they will pay that price in the future. Topps has no more tricks in their bag so even trickery won't keep them afloat forever.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
To answer the OP's question, the prices are crazy but one has to look at how Tim Lincecum prices are doing. He's still succesful and popular, his team are two time champs and his cards are not as high as they were when he exploded on the scene. The same goes for all pitchers. Let's look at FHOF's Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez...give Strasburg a career like them. Does his Bowman autos go any higher than it is now? $500-$800-$1000? Maybe $500 but i dont see them getting any higher than that.
<< <i>Only one pitcher from the 80s until today has held their value from the first time their cards got "hot" and that's Mariano Rivera (which took 2 decades of straight dominating). Think of Pedro, Hoffman, Smoltz, Mussina, Maddux, Randy Johnson, Clemens.... all arguably had HOF careers but none have held their value. >>
For some of those guys, it's only because of the sets their cards were in.
<< <i>For some of those guys, it's only because of the sets their cards were in. >>
Now someone is making sense.
Topps has forgotten this by making thier chase insert cards much more important than their base sets.
Don't get me wrong, the base sets are visually appealing but so is 1990 Uppder Deck. Who is seriously interested in collecting the base sets and holding them long-term? Time will tell I guess but market prices indicate less demand than supply.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
PS Fernando was a stud, He also did stuff that neither Strasburg or any other active pitcher could ever dream of doing!
only a few years into his career he had more COMPLETE GAME SHUTOUTS than his age .........Fernando had 26 Shutouts by the age of 26 (save ya the time... Verlander has 6 career shutouts and he is 30 years old)
lets see Strasburg throw 9 innings one time in his career lol ...I highly doubt it will ever happen
<< <i>To answer the OP's question, the prices are crazy but one has to look at how Tim Lincecum prices are doing. He's still succesful and popular, his team are two time champs and his cards are not as high as they were when he exploded on the scene. >>
Timmy's cards didn't really take off until he started working on Cy Young award #2 in 2009. His cards peeked a bit higher after the 2010 World Series, but have been in slow decline since. I'd hardly consider Lincecum to be a "successful" pitcher right now. Look at his numbers.
Back in the day, a 2007 Bowman Chrome base AU would cost you $125+. Now they're $50-$70. The refractor version was going for north of $200, but one sold yesterday for less than $90.
For some of those guys, it's only because of the sets their cards were in.
Somewhat true, but with the advent of grading creating an artificial rarity where a significant premium can be placed, I think you can make a reasonable comparison. An 87 Donruss Maddux used to bring $250 in PSA 10, now it's down to $75. Pedro Rookies were through the roof, same with Hoffman and Randy Johnson. Some of it has to do with pops going up, but so have the pops of Chipper, Biggio, Alomar, Jeter, yet all are at an all time high right now after their retirement.
<< <i>Only one pitcher from the 80s until today has held their value from the first time their cards got "hot" and that's Mariano Rivera (which took 2 decades of straight dominating). Think of Pedro, Hoffman, Smoltz, Mussina, Maddux, Randy Johnson, Clemens.... all arguably had HOF careers but none have held their value. That should tell you something about the investment potential of ANY pitcher, and it really has very little to do with what they do on the field. Because the second they have a big injury or less than dominating year the cards will plummet and never recover unless they come back to win multiple Cy Young's.
Oh, hey Tim Lincecum collectors..... sorry, didn't see you there. How's it going? >>
Here we go again with CDs comparing today's prices with the time when the hobby was at its peak and using that to try to make a blanket argument about the value of rookie cards of pitchers. It has nothing to do with the fact that these guys were pitchers. 99.99% of all rookies of pitchers AND hitters have decreased from their peak. I can list Puckett, Ripken, Griffey, Gwynn, Mcgwire etc. who have decreased in value since their peak just like he listed the above pitchers.
Here we go again with CDs comparing today's prices with the time when the hobby was at its peak and using that to try to make a blanket argument about the value of rookie cards of pitchers. It has nothing to do with the fact that these guys were pitchers. 99.99% of all rookies of pitchers AND hitters have decreased from their peak. I can list Puckett, Ripken, Griffey, Gwynn, Mcgwire etc. who have decreased in value since their peak just like he listed the above pitchers.
Again? Do you have me confused with somebody else? I don't recall posting about the value of pitchers vs hitters before, but I could be wrong.
If you want to look at graded, from the 80s the following players RCs are at or close to their peak- Henderson, Raines, Mattingly, Biggio, Alomar, Chipper, Rivera, Jeter..... only one is a pitcher. You might be able to throw Glavine in as well, I haven't followed his cards all that closely. Even PSA 10s of Griffey's UD RC haven't plummeted even as pops completely exploded. If you want to argue that pitchers have just as much staying power in the hobby as hitters, go for it. It's just not true and never has been.
<< <i>Only one pitcher from the 80s until today has held their value from the first time their cards got "hot" and that's Mariano Rivera (which took 2 decades of straight dominating). Think of Pedro, Hoffman, Smoltz, Mussina, Maddux, Randy Johnson, Clemens.... all arguably had HOF careers but none have held their value. That should tell you something about the investment potential of ANY pitcher, and it really has very little to do with what they do on the field. Because the second they have a big injury or less than dominating year the cards will plummet and never recover unless they come back to win multiple Cy Young's.
Oh, hey Tim Lincecum collectors..... sorry, didn't see you there. How's it going? >>
Here we go again with CDs comparing today's prices with the time when the hobby was at its peak and using that to try to make a blanket argument about the value of rookie cards of pitchers. It has nothing to do with the fact that these guys were pitchers. 99.99% of all rookies of pitchers AND hitters have decreased from their peak. I can list Puckett, Ripken, Griffey, Gwynn, Mcgwire etc. who have decreased in value since their peak just like he listed the above pitchers. >>
Pitcher RCs do very badly relative to the player's ability; i.e, a pitcher who finishes his career as one of the top 5/10/50 pitchers of all time will not see the kind of premium for his cards that a hitter who finishes in the top 5/10/50 will see.
So you name some hitters who are at or near their peak value and I named some that are way below their peak value. PSA 8s of Ripken's and Gwynn's Topps rookies used to sell for $50 each, with 9s in the $300 range and 10s in the $1200+ range. How about now?
Raw rookies cards of hitters you named (Raines, Mattingly, Biggio, Alomar, Chipper) never sold for more than a buck or 2 and still don't. And for Jeter and Mattingly, it is also the NY effect boosting their sales.
So is it mainly the shorter printed or lower pop high grades that are peaking.
I can say the same thing about some pitchers. Low pop PSA 10 rookie cards of Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Tom Glavine currently sell for more than they ever have. And as they get closer to being enshrined in the HOF, I expect them to peak further.
<< <i>Strasburg could win 5 consecutive CY Youngs and it still wouldn't justify the some of the prices his cards were selling for a couple years ago >>
same could be said for Andrew Luck (although he wont win the cy young but you get my point).
But this thread leads me to think about Buster Posey, Mike Trout, Bryce Harper and Yu Darvish. Of the bunch, Darvish seems to be having an a great season, striking out nearly every other batter. Trout is off to a slow start, seems to be coming around. Posey is taking too many days off, it seems. And Harper is hitting very well. Hope he is healthy all year.
Strasburg is not pitching nearly as good as last year before his surgery. Although if his ERA is down, he is still maintaining some control and just not getting run support.
So you name some hitters who are at or near their peak value and I named some that are way below their peak value. PSA 8s of Ripken's and Gwynn's Topps rookies used to sell for $50 each, with 9s in the $300 range and 10s in the $1200+ range. How about now?
Raw rookies cards of hitters you named (Raines, Mattingly, Biggio, Alomar, Chipper) never sold for more than a buck or 2 and still don't. And for Jeter and Mattingly, it is also the NY effect boosting their sales.
So is it mainly the shorter printed or lower pop high grades that are peaking.
I can say the same thing about some pitchers. Low pop PSA 10 rookie cards of Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Tom Glavine currently sell for more than they ever have. And as they get closer to being enshrined in the HOF, I expect them to peak further.
You're right, you got me. Pitchers absolutely get the same respect in the hobby that hitters do. In the same way that defensive players and O-lineman get the same respect as QBs, RBs and WRs in football. You win, I don't know what I'm talking about. Oh, and I'm still waiting for links to the threads where I apparently always talk about this topic.
You're dizzy, dude. Good luck with your trolling the internet looking to start arguments with people whom your message board existence has barely registered.
<< <i>So you name some hitters who are at or near their peak value and I named some that are way below their peak value. PSA 8s of Ripken's and Gwynn's Topps rookies used to sell for $50 each, with 9s in the $300 range and 10s in the $1200+ range. How about now?
Raw rookies cards of hitters you named (Raines, Mattingly, Biggio, Alomar, Chipper) never sold for more than a buck or 2 and still don't. And for Jeter and Mattingly, it is also the NY effect boosting their sales.
So is it mainly the shorter printed or lower pop high grades that are peaking.
I can say the same thing about some pitchers. Low pop PSA 10 rookie cards of Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Tom Glavine currently sell for more than they ever have. And as they get closer to being enshrined in the HOF, I expect them to peak further.
You're right, you got me. Pitchers absolutely get the same respect in the hobby that hitters do. In the same way that defensive players and O-lineman get the same respect as QBs, RBs and WRs in football. You win, I don't know what I'm talking about. Oh, and I'm still waiting for links to the threads where I apparently always talk about this topic.
You're dizzy, dude. Good luck with your trolling the internet looking to start arguments with people whom your message board existence has barely registered. >>
OK, Mr. self-appointed "king" of this message board. Sorry if Alzheimer's has set in with you, but you have a short memory if you don't recall when you tried using your "peak of the hobby" comparison to make a similar suggestion that Topps Tiffany cards are not good buys because many don't sell for what they did when the hobby itself peaked in the 1990s. Then when I pointed out recent high sales of Tiffany PSA 10 rookies of Frank Thomas and Randy Johnson you pretty much clammed up.
OK, Mr. self-appointed "king" of this message board. Sorry if Alzheimer's has set in with you, but you have a short memory if you don't recall when you tried using your "peak of the hobby" comparison to make a similar suggestion that Topps Tiffany cards are not good buys because many don't sell for what they did when the hobby itself peaked in the 1990s. Then when I pointed out recent high sales of Tiffany PSA 10 rookies of Frank Thomas and Randy Johnson you pretty much clammed up.
So you have some axe to grind because I disagreed with you in a 2-3 year old thread that I don't even remember? Wow. Don't take this the wrong way but you're a complete and utter moron.
<< <i>Mr. Always address him as Mr. Or Sir. You must understand that Lee is a hobby heavyweight, and we all show the proper deference to him. >>
I don't care who he is. It doesn't mean he can mouth off about him being on the board longer so that makes him "the man" and then start name calling when someone calls him out when he makes a completely BS argument. If he had made the argument that a Mantle or Mays rookie will always carry a premium over a top pitcher like Ryan or Koufax, or even that a low pop Griffey rookie will always hold a premium over a low pop Maddux rookie, OK there could be an argument to be made there. But to come on here and and try to make a case against rookie cards of all pitchers by running off a list of hitters from the 1980s like Biggio, Raines, Alomar, and Chipper Jones,who have seen a recent spike in their low pop high grade rookies (mainly due to end of career and nearing election to the HOF) while ignoring that the same exact thing is happening with low pop PSA 10 rookies of PITCHERS in the same boat, is complete nonsense. PSA 10 Tiffany Randy Johnson rookies have been selling for $500+, Glavines for $200+, Smoltz for $100+ and Maddux for $125 to $150. Those are all pretty much highs for those cards as well and right in line with the prices of most of the guys on his list of hitters. He also chooses to ignore that plenty of raw and graded 1980s rookies of HITTERS have plummeted by 70% or more from their peak. Ripken, Gwynn, Boggs, Sandberg, Puckett, McGwire have never been cheaper in raw or graded form than current prices.
<< <i>I don't care who he is. It doesn't mean he can mouth off about him being on the board longer so that makes him "the man" and then start name calling when someone calls him out when he makes a completely BS argument. If he had made the argument that a Mantle or Mays rookie will always carry a premium over a top pitcher like Ryan or Koufax, or even that a low pop Griffey rookie will always hold a premium over a low pop Maddux rookie, OK there could be an argument to be made there. But to come on here and and try to make a case against rookie cards of all pitchers by running off a list of hitters from the 1980s like Biggio, Raines, Alomar, and Chipper Jones,who have seen a recent spike in their low pop high grade rookies (mainly due to end of career and nearing election to the HOF) while ignoring that the same exact thing is happening with low pop PSA 10 rookies of PITCHERS in the same boat, is complete nonsense. PSA 10 Tiffany Randy Johnson rookies have been selling for $500+, Glavines for $200+, Smoltz for $100+ and Maddux for $125 to $150. Those are all pretty much highs for those cards as well and right in line with the prices of most of the guys on his list of hitters. He also chooses to ignore that plenty of raw and graded 1980s rookies of HITTERS have plummeted by 70% or more from their peak. Ripken, Gwynn, Boggs, Sandberg, Puckett, McGwire have never been cheaper in raw or graded form than current prices. >>
Exactly. It's nice to finally see somebody call him out on it.
Anybody that thinks I'm going to take the time to read that rambling incoherent mess is sadly, sadly mistaken. I don't even know what this argument is about, nor do I care. But what I do know is this: anybody that carries around inconsequential internet disagreements for years waiting for a chance to get back at the other party needs to take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror and take some time to reevaluate things.
<< <i>Anybody that thinks I'm going to take the time to read that rambling incoherent mess is sadly, sadly mistaken. I don't even know what this argument is about, nor do I care. But what I do know is this: anybody that carries around inconsequential internet disagreements for years waiting for a chance to get back at the other party needs to take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror and take some time to reevaluate things.
Lee >>
Typical response (along with name calling) when you have nothing logical left to debate. Too old and slow to read a paragraph or to remember a debate you had about a year ago? Or just too wrong to admit it? Or maybe it is because you go around throwing out so many BS arguments, you simply can't keep track of them all?
And for me, it has nothing to do with an ax to grind. I just couldn't believe you tried to pull the same unbelievable BS argument all over again.
Comments
His ERA is 3.16. He gets the third worst run support in MLB (1.83). That's why his record is what it is.
If he actually got run support, and was 3-1, would this be an issue?
<< <i>He has struggled in the first inning. He, and every baseball fan in America, is aware of it. He's smart and will figure it out.
His ERA is 3.16. He gets the third worst run support in MLB (1.83). That's why his record is what it is.
If he actually got run support, and was 3-1, would this be an issue? >>
+1
A pitcher's won/loss record has very little to do with his effectiveness and much more to do with the support of the team and how good (or not) they are playing.
Focusing on his ERA in the first inning is akin to saying a hitter bats .190 when it's cloudy out. We need to look at the complete picture.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>The three non-pitchers had rookie cards that were beyond overpriced.
Ridiculous speculation on Greenwell, Jefferies and Justice. People buying 100-card lots of these
guys for high prices.
They were all going to be the next Ted Williams or Hank Aaron.
And today -- well you know what their rookie cards are worth unless PSA 10 with a nostalgic buyer
trying to complete his registry set. >>
I think they're still printing Greenwell, Jefferies, and Justice rookie cards.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>I think they're still printing Greenwell, Jefferies, and Justice rookie cards.
Nick >>
I think Topps may still be doing that. Hell they print everything else and
have 45 year-olds busting packs in the local cardshop looking for hidden gold
while the 10-year olds that can't afford those cards pass by the shop heading
for used the video game store to get some real entertainment.
The hobby has done a 180-degree spin move worthy of Michael Jordan.
The previous post said "remember when we collected cards of players for no
other reason, than they were our heroes."
Well those players still are bigger than life for me personally and I don't collect
post 1980 cards but I do collect these guys: Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente,
Kaline, Yaz, Killebrew, Gibson, Seaver.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>
<< <i>He has struggled in the first inning. He, and every baseball fan in America, is aware of it. He's smart and will figure it out.
His ERA is 3.16. He gets the third worst run support in MLB (1.83). That's why his record is what it is.
If he actually got run support, and was 3-1, would this be an issue? >>
+1
A pitcher's won/loss record has very little to do with his effectiveness and much more to do with the support of the team and how good (or not) they are playing.
Focusing on his ERA in the first inning is akin to saying a hitter bats .190 when it's cloudy out. We need to look at the complete picture. >>
I don't disagree about the run support issue...but that said, sometimes it's hard to boost morale and get motivated when your starter can't find the plate for the first 1 or 2 innings.
Even as a Cards fan I realize he's a talented guy... but something's amiss because it seems he's consistent as far as the bad start thing. Just saying.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
1991 & 1992 Fleer Pro Visions
1952 Topps
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>Strasburg is now a crisp 1 - 5 after giving up 4 runs through 5 innings today at home vs. the Cubs and getting outdueled by.......Edwin Jackson. >>
All four runs unearned which lowered his era to 3.10 but he still is a poor 1-5
Doug
potential future value.
Until then -- bupkis.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>When he has five solid seasons under his belt, then we can begin to discuss whether or not his cards have
potential future value.
Until then -- bupkis. >>
time to buy then?
start to their career and then, for whatever reasons, fell into the abyss.
Can you say Fernando? I saw an interview recently about the guy that was going
to make everyone forget Koufax. And for about 5 seasons we did.
Serious money spent on Strasburg right now is a serious mistake unless you have
serious money to lose.
But if you feel lucky and can get his cards cheap then by all means go for it.
DaveB in St.Louis
Of course the reality is ANY player can have a great season or two and then stuff happens. Or maybe not. Maybe Straburg will bounce back. Apparently he is not pitching horrible. However, I have to imagine the guys that invested huge money in his cards must be a little nervous; rightly or wrongly.
Oh, hey Tim Lincecum collectors..... sorry, didn't see you there. How's it going?
and if you look at post-WWII cards especially this is true. The iconic Topps rookie cards of the 50s and 60s for example are for the
most part NOT pitchers. Not that these non-pitchers are the be-all and end-all of investment-grade cards, but they set the trend.
Someone asked if people still invest in cards. They do, but mostly they are very high end rookie cards for post-WWII and pre-war
they are the blue-chip hall of famers: Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Wagner, etc.
It's supply/demand as in all collectibile markets and nothing since 1952 is particularly rare (just because you don't see a card for
sale often is no indication of it's rarity -- people hold onto some cards a lot more than others) so demand drives almost all
of the market.
Topps attempts to create "rarity" with their numbered cards and autos but I beleive that this kind of market manipulation
is going to backfire. They're not getting the younger generation and they will pay that price in the future. Topps has no more
tricks in their bag so even trickery won't keep them afloat forever.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>Only one pitcher from the 80s until today has held their value from the first time their cards got "hot" and that's Mariano Rivera (which took 2 decades of straight dominating). Think of Pedro, Hoffman, Smoltz, Mussina, Maddux, Randy Johnson, Clemens.... all arguably had HOF careers but none have held their value. >>
For some of those guys, it's only because of the sets their cards were in.
<< <i>For some of those guys, it's only because of the sets their cards were in. >>
Now someone is making sense.
Topps has forgotten this by making thier chase insert cards much more important
than their base sets.
Don't get me wrong, the base sets are visually appealing but so is 1990 Uppder Deck.
Who is seriously interested in collecting the base sets and holding them long-term?
Time will tell I guess but market prices indicate less demand than supply.
DaveB in St.Louis
only a few years into his career he had more COMPLETE GAME SHUTOUTS than his age
(save ya the time... Verlander has 6 career shutouts and he is 30 years old)
lets see Strasburg throw 9 innings one time in his career lol
...I highly doubt it will ever happen
<< <i>To answer the OP's question, the prices are crazy but one has to look at how Tim Lincecum prices are doing. He's still succesful and popular, his team are two time champs and his cards are not as high as they were when he exploded on the scene. >>
Timmy's cards didn't really take off until he started working on Cy Young award #2 in 2009. His cards peeked a bit higher after the 2010 World Series, but have been in slow decline since. I'd hardly consider Lincecum to be a "successful" pitcher right now. Look at his numbers.
Back in the day, a 2007 Bowman Chrome base AU would cost you $125+. Now they're $50-$70. The refractor version was going for north of $200, but one sold yesterday for less than $90.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Somewhat true, but with the advent of grading creating an artificial rarity where a significant premium can be placed, I think you can make a reasonable comparison. An 87 Donruss Maddux used to bring $250 in PSA 10, now it's down to $75. Pedro Rookies were through the roof, same with Hoffman and Randy Johnson. Some of it has to do with pops going up, but so have the pops of Chipper, Biggio, Alomar, Jeter, yet all are at an all time high right now after their retirement.
<< <i>Only one pitcher from the 80s until today has held their value from the first time their cards got "hot" and that's Mariano Rivera (which took 2 decades of straight dominating). Think of Pedro, Hoffman, Smoltz, Mussina, Maddux, Randy Johnson, Clemens.... all arguably had HOF careers but none have held their value. That should tell you something about the investment potential of ANY pitcher, and it really has very little to do with what they do on the field. Because the second they have a big injury or less than dominating year the cards will plummet and never recover unless they come back to win multiple Cy Young's.
Oh, hey Tim Lincecum collectors..... sorry, didn't see you there. How's it going? >>
Here we go again with CDs comparing today's prices with the time when the hobby was at its peak and using that to try to make a blanket argument about the value of rookie cards of pitchers. It has nothing to do with the fact that these guys were pitchers. 99.99% of all rookies of pitchers AND hitters have decreased from their peak. I can list Puckett, Ripken, Griffey, Gwynn, Mcgwire etc. who have decreased in value since their peak just like he listed the above pitchers.
Again? Do you have me confused with somebody else? I don't recall posting about the value of pitchers vs hitters before, but I could be wrong.
If you want to look at graded, from the 80s the following players RCs are at or close to their peak- Henderson, Raines, Mattingly, Biggio, Alomar, Chipper, Rivera, Jeter..... only one is a pitcher. You might be able to throw Glavine in as well, I haven't followed his cards all that closely. Even PSA 10s of Griffey's UD RC haven't plummeted even as pops completely exploded. If you want to argue that pitchers have just as much staying power in the hobby as hitters, go for it. It's just not true and never has been.
At the end of last year, he just doesn't know it yet.
<< <i>
<< <i>Only one pitcher from the 80s until today has held their value from the first time their cards got "hot" and that's Mariano Rivera (which took 2 decades of straight dominating). Think of Pedro, Hoffman, Smoltz, Mussina, Maddux, Randy Johnson, Clemens.... all arguably had HOF careers but none have held their value. That should tell you something about the investment potential of ANY pitcher, and it really has very little to do with what they do on the field. Because the second they have a big injury or less than dominating year the cards will plummet and never recover unless they come back to win multiple Cy Young's.
Oh, hey Tim Lincecum collectors..... sorry, didn't see you there. How's it going? >>
Here we go again with CDs comparing today's prices with the time when the hobby was at its peak and using that to try to make a blanket argument about the value of rookie cards of pitchers. It has nothing to do with the fact that these guys were pitchers. 99.99% of all rookies of pitchers AND hitters have decreased from their peak. I can list Puckett, Ripken, Griffey, Gwynn, Mcgwire etc. who have decreased in value since their peak just like he listed the above pitchers. >>
Pitcher RCs do very badly relative to the player's ability; i.e, a pitcher who finishes his career as one of the top 5/10/50 pitchers of all time will not see the kind of premium for his cards that a hitter who finishes in the top 5/10/50 will see.
Raw rookies cards of hitters you named (Raines, Mattingly, Biggio, Alomar, Chipper) never sold for more than a buck or 2 and still don't. And for Jeter and Mattingly, it is also the NY effect boosting their sales.
So is it mainly the shorter printed or lower pop high grades that are peaking.
I can say the same thing about some pitchers. Low pop PSA 10 rookie cards of Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Tom Glavine currently sell for more than they ever have. And as they get closer to being enshrined in the HOF, I expect them to peak further.
<< <i>Strasburg could win 5 consecutive CY Youngs and it still wouldn't justify the some of the prices his cards were selling for a couple years ago >>
same could be said for Andrew Luck (although he wont win the cy young
But this thread leads me to think about Buster Posey, Mike Trout, Bryce Harper and Yu Darvish. Of the bunch, Darvish seems to be having an a great season, striking out nearly every other batter. Trout is off to a slow start, seems to be coming around. Posey is taking too many days off, it seems. And Harper is hitting very well. Hope he is healthy all year.
Strasburg is not pitching nearly as good as last year before his surgery. Although if his ERA is down, he is still maintaining some control and just not getting run support.
Raw rookies cards of hitters you named (Raines, Mattingly, Biggio, Alomar, Chipper) never sold for more than a buck or 2 and still don't. And for Jeter and Mattingly, it is also the NY effect boosting their sales.
So is it mainly the shorter printed or lower pop high grades that are peaking.
I can say the same thing about some pitchers. Low pop PSA 10 rookie cards of Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Tom Glavine currently sell for more than they ever have. And as they get closer to being enshrined in the HOF, I expect them to peak further.
You're right, you got me. Pitchers absolutely get the same respect in the hobby that hitters do. In the same way that defensive players and O-lineman get the same respect as QBs, RBs and WRs in football. You win, I don't know what I'm talking about. Oh, and I'm still waiting for links to the threads where I apparently always talk about this topic.
You're dizzy, dude. Good luck with your trolling the internet looking to start arguments with people whom your message board existence has barely registered.
<< <i>And yet Manny Machado go's under the radar...lol, snatch that stuff up while you can! >>
if he were Caucasian, i would say buy them up.
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
<< <i>So you name some hitters who are at or near their peak value and I named some that are way below their peak value. PSA 8s of Ripken's and Gwynn's Topps rookies used to sell for $50 each, with 9s in the $300 range and 10s in the $1200+ range. How about now?
Raw rookies cards of hitters you named (Raines, Mattingly, Biggio, Alomar, Chipper) never sold for more than a buck or 2 and still don't. And for Jeter and Mattingly, it is also the NY effect boosting their sales.
So is it mainly the shorter printed or lower pop high grades that are peaking.
I can say the same thing about some pitchers. Low pop PSA 10 rookie cards of Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, and Tom Glavine currently sell for more than they ever have. And as they get closer to being enshrined in the HOF, I expect them to peak further.
You're right, you got me. Pitchers absolutely get the same respect in the hobby that hitters do. In the same way that defensive players and O-lineman get the same respect as QBs, RBs and WRs in football. You win, I don't know what I'm talking about. Oh, and I'm still waiting for links to the threads where I apparently always talk about this topic.
You're dizzy, dude. Good luck with your trolling the internet looking to start arguments with people whom your message board existence has barely registered. >>
OK, Mr. self-appointed "king" of this message board. Sorry if Alzheimer's has set in with you, but you have a short memory if you don't recall when you tried using your "peak of the hobby" comparison to make a similar suggestion that Topps Tiffany cards are not good buys because many don't sell for what they did when the hobby itself peaked in the 1990s. Then when I pointed out recent high sales of Tiffany PSA 10 rookies of Frank Thomas and Randy Johnson you pretty much clammed up.
So you have some axe to grind because I disagreed with you in a 2-3 year old thread that I don't even remember? Wow. Don't take this the wrong way but you're a complete and utter moron.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
<< <i>I post about twice a week now, half the people on this board don't have the slightest clue who I am. >>
first class jackleg...that's for sure
<< <i>I post about twice a week now, half the people on this board don't have the slightest clue who I am. >>
Hey you are Mr. King or whatever this guy said.
What a clown. Ignore the troll. It's probably Fandango or someone like that.
Though a smartalec sometimes, back in the day, you are spot on with your posts so I would ignore the troll.
Step back from the keyboard CD.
<< <i>.....half the people on this board don't have the slightest clue who I am. >>
I wish I was in that half. Lord, how I wish.
<< <i>Mr. Always address him as Mr. Or Sir. You must understand that Lee is a hobby heavyweight, and we all show the proper deference to him. >>
I don't care who he is. It doesn't mean he can mouth off about him being on the board longer so that makes him "the man" and then start name calling when someone calls him out when he makes a completely BS argument. If he had made the argument that a Mantle or Mays rookie will always carry a premium over a top pitcher like Ryan or Koufax, or even that a low pop Griffey rookie will always hold a premium over a low pop Maddux rookie, OK there could be an argument to be made there. But to come on here and and try to make a case against rookie cards of all pitchers by running off a list of hitters from the 1980s like Biggio, Raines, Alomar, and Chipper Jones,who have seen a recent spike in their low pop high grade rookies (mainly due to end of career and nearing election to the HOF) while ignoring that the same exact thing is happening with low pop PSA 10 rookies of PITCHERS in the same boat, is complete nonsense. PSA 10 Tiffany Randy Johnson rookies have been selling for $500+, Glavines for $200+, Smoltz for $100+ and Maddux for $125 to $150. Those are all pretty much highs for those cards as well and right in line with the prices of most of the guys on his list of hitters. He also chooses to ignore that plenty of raw and graded 1980s rookies of HITTERS have plummeted by 70% or more from their peak. Ripken, Gwynn, Boggs, Sandberg, Puckett, McGwire have never been cheaper in raw or graded form than current prices.
<< <i>I don't care who he is. It doesn't mean he can mouth off about him being on the board longer so that makes him "the man" and then start name calling when someone calls him out when he makes a completely BS argument. If he had made the argument that a Mantle or Mays rookie will always carry a premium over a top pitcher like Ryan or Koufax, or even that a low pop Griffey rookie will always hold a premium over a low pop Maddux rookie, OK there could be an argument to be made there. But to come on here and and try to make a case against rookie cards of all pitchers by running off a list of hitters from the 1980s like Biggio, Raines, Alomar, and Chipper Jones,who have seen a recent spike in their low pop high grade rookies (mainly due to end of career and nearing election to the HOF) while ignoring that the same exact thing is happening with low pop PSA 10 rookies of PITCHERS in the same boat, is complete nonsense. PSA 10 Tiffany Randy Johnson rookies have been selling for $500+, Glavines for $200+, Smoltz for $100+ and Maddux for $125 to $150. Those are all pretty much highs for those cards as well and right in line with the prices of most of the guys on his list of hitters. He also chooses to ignore that plenty of raw and graded 1980s rookies of HITTERS have plummeted by 70% or more from their peak. Ripken, Gwynn, Boggs, Sandberg, Puckett, McGwire have never been cheaper in raw or graded form than current prices. >>
Exactly. It's nice to finally see somebody call him out on it.
<< <i>
<< <i>I post about twice a week now, half the people on this board don't have the slightest clue who I am. >>
first class jackleg...that's for sure >>
I don't have a dog in this fight and had already said I wouldn't post anymore but jackleg is pretty darn funny.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Lee
<< <i>Anybody that thinks I'm going to take the time to read that rambling incoherent mess is sadly, sadly mistaken. I don't even know what this argument is about, nor do I care. But what I do know is this: anybody that carries around inconsequential internet disagreements for years waiting for a chance to get back at the other party needs to take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror and take some time to reevaluate things.
Lee >>
Typical response (along with name calling) when you have nothing logical left to debate. Too old and slow to read a paragraph or to remember a debate you had about a year ago? Or just too wrong to admit it? Or maybe it is because you go around throwing out so many BS arguments, you simply can't keep track of them all?
And for me, it has nothing to do with an ax to grind. I just couldn't believe you tried to pull the same unbelievable BS argument all over again.