Mastro article
EchoCanyon
Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭
0
EchoCanyon
Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭
EchoCanyon
Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭
Comments
Most organizations have made mistakes, PSA is no different. If you have evidence of fraud (PSA new at the time it was a trimmed card and slabbed it for financial benefit) let's see it. Otherwise it's very old news.
<< <i>Most organizations have made mistakes, PSA is no different. If you have evidence of fraud (PSA new at the time it was a trimmed card and slabbed it for financial benefit) let's see it. Otherwise it's very old news. >>
True, But how do you react to the fact that Mr. Hall has emphatically defended the grading of that card as a PSA 8, including and not limited to last year's PSA luncheon at the National. All we heard was that Mr Hall was one of the very few individuals to lay eyes on that card prior to grading, and that the card was not trimmed. Mistakes are made, but admit when you make a mistake, don't continue to defend it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Most organizations have made mistakes, PSA is no different. If you have evidence of fraud (PSA new at the time it was a trimmed card and slabbed it for financial benefit) let's see it. Otherwise it's very old news. >>
True, But how do you react to the fact that Mr. Hall has emphatically defended the grading of that card as a PSA 8, including and not limited to last year's PSA luncheon at the National. All we heard was that Mr Hall was one of the very few individuals to lay eyes on that card prior to grading, and that the card was not trimmed. Mistakes are made, but admit when you make a mistake, don't continue to defend it. >>
Fair enough, I'm not 100% up on the history of it all. I just know, from working in large org's (and PSA is by no means large), that every company makes mistakes. This Mastro admission is new as of this week so I'd expect to see a PSA response. Before Mastro's admission they had nothing to apologize for as trimming was just a rumour, albeit a rampant one.
<< <i>
<< <i>Most organizations have made mistakes, PSA is no different. If you have evidence of fraud (PSA new at the time it was a trimmed card and slabbed it for financial benefit) let's see it. Otherwise it's very old news. >>
True, But how do you react to the fact that Mr. Hall has emphatically defended the grading of that card as a PSA 8, including and not limited to last year's PSA luncheon at the National. All we heard was that Mr Hall was one of the very few individuals to lay eyes on that card prior to grading, and that the card was not trimmed. Mistakes are made, but admit when you make a mistake, don't continue to defend it. >>
+1
<< <i>how do you react to the fact that Mr. Hall has emphatically defended the grading of that card as a PSA 8, including and not limited to last year's PSA luncheon at the National. All we heard was that Mr Hall was one of the very few individuals to lay eyes on that card prior to grading, and that the card was not trimmed. Mistakes are made, but admit when you make a mistake, don't continue to defend it. >>
And how can you be sure that Bill Mastro is being truthful?
<< <i>And how can you be sure that Bill Mastro is being truthful? >>
I agree, but what is his motivation for making the comment?
I also agree with the article that it may very well increase the card's value. It has such a singular legend/story to it now. If Kendrick had PSA examine and pay out he'd set a record for greatest profit ever made on a card!
It appears that the owner is of the mindset that it has become even more valuable. If this is the case then PSA wouldn't have to payout anything.
If this is the case then he would no longer be the owner and since he still wants to own it he essentially is stuck with the card.
<< <i>
<< <i>And how can you be sure that Bill Mastro is being truthful? >>
I agree, but what is his motivation for making the comment? >>
My understanding is that as part of the plea deal the gov't wouldn't require Mastro to testify against Doug Allen & others if he admitted to trimming the card.
<< <i>
<< <i>And how can you be sure that Bill Mastro is being truthful? >>
I agree, but what is his motivation for making the comment? >>
He made the admission as part of a plea bargain. Seems like a lesser
sentence would be a potentially reasonable motivation.
As to whether the statement is actually truthful (or just a false admission
in order to get a reduced sentence)...that is something only Mastro himself
will ever really know.
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>And how can you be sure that Bill Mastro is being truthful? >>
I agree, but what is his motivation for making the comment? >>
He made the admission as part of a plea bargain. Seems like a lesser
sentence would be a potentially reasonable motivation.
As to whether the statement is actually truthful (or just a false admission
in order to get a reduced sentence)...that is something only Mastro himself
will ever really know. >>
I think when you factor in that many people felt the card was trimmed + the feds indicting him for fraud + Mastro admitting trimming, it's reasonable to assume the card was trimmed.
<< <i>300,000 vouchers for free gradings? >>
But you would have to pay for return shipping which means PSA make $5 per voucher.
James
A PSA 8 to Auth would be a large downgrade = large payout.
<< <i>My understanding of the PSA guarantee is that they pay the difference in value if the card is downgraded but the owner keeps the card.
A PSA 8 to Auth would be a large downgrade = large payout. >>
This is how it works. Owner gets the card back in a new holder with the new grade.
<< <i>My understanding of the PSA guarantee is that they pay the difference in value if the card is downgraded but the owner keeps the card.
A PSA 8 to Auth would be a large downgrade = large payout. >>
PSA probably has insurance coverage for this kind of scenario, so it probably wouldn't be all that problematical for them if this came to pass.
Dave
"Mastro is currently trying to procure a federal plea agreement on charges that he used shill bidders in auctions to drive up prices"
Oh oh look out shilling can get you jail time!
<< <i>Interesting quote
"Mastro is currently trying to procure a federal plea agreement on charges that he used shill bidders in auctions to drive up prices"
Oh oh look out shilling can get you jail time! >>
Especially when you do it over the telephone or the internet. Then it's called wire fraud and its a federal offense.
Dave
<< <i>Most organizations have made mistakes, PSA is no different. If you have evidence of fraud (PSA new at the time it was a trimmed card and slabbed it for financial benefit) let's see it. >>
I don't know much about the card, but it says here that PSA knew it was sheet cut, which is basically the same as trimmed, right?
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/2007/06/photos-prove-wagner-card-was-t.html
Still, the questions surrounding the card never went away, and in a 2005 interview, PSA grader Bill Hughes, a member of the team that inspected the Gretzky T206 Wagner, admitted he knew the card had been cut from a sheet when he graded the card."We were aware of that when the card came to PSA," he is quoted as saying in "The Card." "This particular card was obviously cut...The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacreligious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it."
I was at the PSA luncheon when Mr. Hall decided to address the issue in Baltimore. I thought he came accross as very emphatic, perhaps overly, in his stance that the card was not altered. He stressed that the three graders never considered it, only whether it was a 7 or 8. He also made note of the millions of dollars paid out when mistakes happened, which was a surprising amount to me. He was trying to make the point that PSA stands behind its product. It will no doubt be interesting if the determination is made that Bill Mastro stands by his confession as truthful and there is evidence to support it.
Have faith! Someday it will all be resolved.
If I ran PSA I would not want this card floating around in the hobby. They should buy it back and regrade it.
<< <i>Some of the responses to that article are priceless. >>
+1
<< <i>
<< <i>My understanding of the PSA guarantee is that they pay the difference in value if the card is downgraded but the owner keeps the card.
A PSA 8 to Auth would be a large downgrade = large payout. >>
This is how it works. Owner gets the card back in a new holder with the new grade. >>
I had two cards that I returned to PSA and they kept them. One was a PSA 8 1969 Tom Seaver that had scribble indents on the surface (like someone scribbled on it with a pen that was out of ink). The other was a PSA 8 1971 Nolan Ryan that had a mark on the surface that was missed. This was a long time ago so I don't recall if they gave me the option to keep the cards and get a partial refund. I didn't want a low grade Seaver or PSA 8 MK Ryan so I opted to turn them in. I took the refund in grading credits since I was submitting more cards anyway.
My Sandberg topps basic set
My Sandberg Topps Master set
<< <i>Most organizations have made mistakes, PSA is no different. If you have evidence of fraud (PSA new at the time it was a trimmed card and slabbed it for financial benefit) let's see it. Otherwise it's very old news. >>
Mistake by PSA? Or put itself on the map by fudging the grade on the most famous card in history? Do the math....
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>To lie now would put him in more jeopardy than he is already in, which is a lot. >>
Considering he is now only looking at a maximum 30-month sentence, rather than 20-years, he has plenty of motivation to lie. Not saying he is or isn't, I'm not a mind reader, but it is a possibility.
Mastro did enter into a plea agreement.....however the judge said they would not accept it. They want Mastro to go before a jury on this one. Not sure if I will ever see any money from it but he is going down.
Shane
<< <i>
<< <i>To lie now would put him in more jeopardy than he is already in, which is a lot. >>
Considering he is now only looking at a maximum 30-month sentence, rather than 20-years, he has plenty of motivation to lie. Not saying he is or isn't, I'm not a mind reader, but it is a possibility. >>
Really? The judge denied both plea bargains at 30 months or less. I bet the next plea bargain offer going to the judge won't be 30 months. It will be more. Of course anything is a possibility.....
<< <i>provenance >>
Does that mean it is worth more because it came from an admitted card doctor?
A few old timers will remember when Brian Wentz (or his brother) from BMW Cards came to this board and attacked the legitimacy of the PSA 8 Wagner. He got flamed by a lot of members, but he presented the same info that Mastro just confessed to.
I don't know if the card has lost any value, but what would happen if a famous Picasso was found out to be done 90% by Picasso, 10% by someone after to finish the painting? I doubt it would increase in value.
From what I have been told they are not interested in him serving a 30 month sentence but to make everyone whole (myself included) plus damages/interest to all parties and then time served.
Shane
When is the next show that you will be doing? Would love to talk again.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>To lie now would put him in more jeopardy than he is already in, which is a lot. >>
Considering he is now only looking at a maximum 30-month sentence, rather than 20-years, he has plenty of motivation to lie. Not saying he is or isn't, I'm not a mind reader, but it is a possibility. >>
Really? The judge denied both plea bargains at 30 months or less. I bet the next plea bargain offer going to the judge won't be 30 months. It will be more. Of course anything is a possibility..... >>
Sorry, Leon. I was going off what the Feds offered, didn't realize Judge denied it.
With Picasso’s “Le Reve,” Cohen will add a piece that he’s been pursuing for years, and will deliver a windfall to Steve Wynn. The casino mogul apparently put his elbow through the piece in 2006 as he was showing it off to friends; he had already agreed to sell it to Cohen. Wynn didn’t force the hedgie to buy it, but rather fixed it himself. He reportedly got $45 million in insurance for breaking it, which, added to the final price tag (which was $16 million above the original price agreed with Cohen), means he made more than 43% ripping a six-inch tear into a Picasso. Not bad.
Apparently with fine art you can fix it and have no negative impact on the price. Perhaps this card will be viewed in the same way. It is still the card that has led the charge higher for all Wagner examples.
<< <i>From the Forbes article:
With Picasso’s “Le Reve,” Cohen will add a piece that he’s been pursuing for years, and will deliver a windfall to Steve Wynn. The casino mogul apparently put his elbow through the piece in 2006 as he was showing it off to friends; he had already agreed to sell it to Cohen. Wynn didn’t force the hedgie to buy it, but rather fixed it himself. He reportedly got $45 million in insurance for breaking it, which, added to the final price tag (which was $16 million above the original price agreed with Cohen), means he made more than 43% ripping a six-inch tear into a Picasso. Not bad.
Apparently with fine art you can fix it and have no negative impact on the price. Perhaps this card will be viewed in the same way. It is still the card that has led the charge higher for all Wagner examples. >>
First the insurance was the source of most of the return. The painting sold for $155 MM and the insurance was $45 MM. With the 43% total profit, that means that Wynn paid $140 MM for the painting. His return without insurance is 10.7% over 7 years. Frankly I am surprised that the insurance company did not sue to get their money back. It is clear that Wynn did not suffer a loss.
I do wonder if the Diamondback owner has insurance on the card.
Steve Wynn made a killing on the painting. His purchase price in 2001 was estimated to be 60 million.