These Engelhard silver bars don't look right

OnlyGoldIsMoney · March 17, 2013 12:45PM

These two bars are currently offered on Ebay and are attracting offers.

In my opinion they are fakes.

Although I cannot examine these bars in hand the length looks "off". I have never seen 5 oz bars with such irregular placement of the digits in the serial number. The shallow stamping of the serial number and shape of the letters in the hallmark look "wrong" to my eyes as well.

Opinions are welcomed.

PerryHall · March 17, 2013 5:23PM

They look real to me. Where's POM? He's our 5 oz Engelhard expert.

SilverBaron · March 17, 2013 9:59PM

I am not POM buttttttt ........

These bars are bad in soooo many ways.

I have noticed that there are bad 3 oz. bars on fleebaay lately as well.

Keep on stack'n .... carefully!!

PerryHall · March 17, 2013 10:01PM

<< <i>I am not POM buttttttt ........

These bars are bad in soooo many ways.

I have noticed that there are bad 3 oz. bars on fleebaay lately as well.

Keep on stack'n .... carefully!! >>

What's wrong with them? Help us learn.

CaptHenway · March 17, 2013 10:46PM

Indeed, I would like to learn.

Are the serial number punches proper for this size bar? I notice in the other thread for a three-ounce bar the font is quite different.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · March 17, 2013 11:00PM

When work slows down later today I will post some bars of a similar style I have owned for at least 18 months and which appear to be good.

They will be a good starting point for discussion.

Meltdown · March 18, 2013 12:17AM

oops, double post.

Meltdown · March 18, 2013 12:17AM

<< <i>Maybe I'm trying too hard to see something here, but the 3 zero's after the larger 5 look to be from a single punch. (maybe that's standard or normal?)
Also, the darekening around the englehard rectangle thing looks almost painted.

I would not have tried looking so close if these had been posted as real.
Those are pretty scary good in my opinion. Do you think they're even silver? >>

OnlyGoldIsMoney · March 18, 2013 12:45AM

Here are two similar bars that I am comfortable are good. Among other factors the "fit and finish" (what I view as crispness) is not there on the suspect bars.

topstuf · March 18, 2013 12:48AM

Stick to 1 ouncers that are more difficult to fake.
Also if sludge rises, larger bars limit the potential buyers.

piecesofme · March 18, 2013 12:48AM

They look real to me. Where's POM? He's our 5 oz Engelhard expert.

Thank you for that PerryHall, I appreciate it, but I will defer the "expert" status to OGIM, SilverBaron & dolomite just to mention a few that are way ahead of me on this.

mkman123 · March 18, 2013 12:59AM

could be real. Like I said the chinese could fake these in the thousands and make them look dead on

OnlyGoldIsMoney · March 18, 2013 1:16AM

<< <i>could be real. Like I said the chinese could fake these in the thousands and make them look dead on >>

Lots of people pour in the USA as well. The fake Nazi bars are one good example.

FWIW they are not dead on.

piecesofme · March 18, 2013 1:30AM

On OGIM's 2 bars, the serial numbers appear to have different font on the serial number part of the bars. 1 like my 2, 1 not.
On mine pictured below, they are more like the 55023 one of his. I feel both bars are good having had them looked at and tested by a guy with 40+ years in the biz. In fact, the same dealer that had the fake 100 oz Jm bar come into his store on the thread by CaptHenway.

My bars are similar, but overall pretty different than the 2 provided by the OP. The space between 5 and the . is noticeably farther apart and the obvious serial number difference. The distance between the bottom the Engelhard to the top of the serial numbers seems to be closer than are on mine, but that could be because the pictures seem to be taken at a bit on an angle.

(Also, photobucket is down right now, so i'm not sure how these links are going to work)
Here's my 2 kind of like the ones posted by the OP.

These are 2 that I kind of wondered about too because if the larger serial numbers, but I feel they are good as well.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · March 18, 2013 1:53AM

Rich, your two bars comparable to the suspect bars look good. As SB noted the bars in the original post display numerous irregularities.

piecesofme · March 18, 2013 2:03AM

Here is the variety of 5 oz old pour Engelhards I currently have. Look 'em over and please feel free to comment if you feel anything looks suspicious about them, but know that each have been density, magnet, acid and weight tested.

This site is known to most of us but I refer to it frequently on what to look out for. about ag
From my eyes, I cannot find a 5 oz old pour Engelhard that looks like either of what the OP posted.
The closest I could find is the one that says, "Note that some bars have a slightly larger '5' on the top line, that could be considered a sub-variety." But the serial number loks way different than the one provided on about ag.

rawteam1 · March 18, 2013 2:03AM

i will add this, notice low 5 digit serial #, biggest dif i can see, is notice the 5.000 is exact same size... and 5 is started right over E...

piecesofme · March 18, 2013 2:07AM

the 5.000 is exact same size... and 5 is started right over E

Nice lower digit bar rawteam! That is like the 2 I have in the upper right part of the picture I posted, that happen to be consecutively numbered

OnlyGoldIsMoney · March 18, 2013 2:10AM

rawteam1, your 5 oz bar is an OK subtype similar to this 5 digit serial example.

SilverBaron · March 18, 2013 2:24AM

Some times it helps to know how the real item is made .... so that any difference is a red flag.

This does NOT mean that ANY difference is automatically bad .... hey ... a differect factory ... a different time.

One thing to ALWAYS look for on Engelhard bars, of any size, is the numbers.

Most Engelhard bars were stamped with a set of automatically advancing " wheel " punches.

These sets have a very uniform spacing between them. Yes ... there are error bars where the digit wheel

did not advance completely .... or a bar was double stamped .... BUTTTT the digits are uniformally seperated!!
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Now lets look at the style of the letters and numbers. They are ALL just wrong.

I have never seen an Engelhard bar with a broken " 4 " .... look at the top of the the 4s main stem. ... and would both 4s have the same die chip even if one was damaged? No.

Look at all of the letters. The center stem of the " E " is to long. The center bar of the letter " A " is off.
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For the record .......... All of the bars pictured below the first set , in my humble but accurate opinion, are GOOD!!

Thank You OGIM and POM !!

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piecesofme · March 18, 2013 2:56AM

thank you for your insight SilverBaron. I may feel like an old dog, but I am always learning thanks to you guys here.
Might seem like an odd opportunity to say thank you, but I greatly appeciate all the knowledge that is openly shared here, from everyone.

AUandAG · March 18, 2013 3:36AM

Notice the difference in the A in ENGLEHARD. The crosslet is in the wrong position on the Ebay examples.

bob

piecesofme · March 18, 2013 4:58AM

Here is the 4540 one. I can't find the other one on eBay.
Notice that on almost all of the sellers auctions, the bidders identities are hidden. Now what could be the reason for that?

(rhetorical question)

OnlyGoldIsMoney · March 18, 2013 5:34AM

Rich, pardon my lazy linking. Here is the other auction. It is Ended but it appears both offers were declined. Perhaps someone bought outside ebay???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121082746721?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

dolomite · March 18, 2013 8:35AM

Thanks OGIM for bringing this auction of fakes to light. And all that contributed and of course Rich for posting that great 5oz collection

Only bit to add is a comment a fellow collector brought to my attention... seller acknowledges they will be a gram or two heavy on weight and qualifies by claiming the refiner did this to protect reputation but incorrectly refers to the refinement quality "+" stamping and not the weight. Specifically:

THE .999+ PLUS ON CERTAIN BARS MEANING IS "A COMPANY DID NOT WANT TO GET A BAD REPUTATION FOR SHORTING THE WEIGHT IN BARS. SO WHEN POURING BARS THEY PUT A LITTLE EXTRA SILVER IN THE BARS. MOST SEEM TO HAVE 1-2 GRAMS EXTRA."

I believe this is is a qualifier for when the buyer receives it and it's a bit heavy.

Rich you should buy one and we can all study it

piecesofme · March 18, 2013 9:11AM

Rich you should buy one and we can all study it

LMAO!!! Well, it may be .999 silver, just not Engelhard, but i'm not about to pay that kind of scratch for what may or may not even be .999 silver.

Those are some very good points you bring up dolomite, as did everyone on this one. This thread could be used as a good tool for newbies and even the more experienced collector of these bars.
And since I am kind of specializing in them now, I am grealy appreciative to know to be on the look out for even the damn 5 oz versions of old pour Engelhards, let alone 50's & 100's. Kind of serves as a wake up call to all of us I hope.

These Engelhard silver bars don't look right

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