Need some help with a 64 Kennedy Proof..

Ethan

Hello, I have recently purchased a 64 Proof Kennedy Half and have tried to find out information for it. I had forgot about this site so I will post here also. Here is what I do know. It is not a AH variety. I do think it could be a cameo version of the SMS. I am not sure but I know I am glad to own it. I do not take the best of pictures and I am working on that one.

Here are the pictures from the add in which I purchased it

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Here are my attempts with my own camera




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My next try at pictures. This coin has a typical proof mirror finish and just looks spectacular in person.






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Any help you could give would be appreciated.

Ethan

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Here are some pictures of a 64 Proof set I bought to see if they are the same and compare. It is not even close. (set was unopened before I got it)

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So I am looking around and it seems these 'mirror' proofs were common to 1964. Mine might not be cameo.....it must not be because I only paid $23 for it.

MICHAELDIXON

In my opinion, it is just the standard 1964 Proof Kennedy. From the pictures I do not think it will cameo and is not an SMS.

Constantine

<< <i>In my opinion, it is just the standard 1964 Proof Kennedy. From the pictures I do not think it will cameo and is not an SMS. >>



I agree. Don't think it cameo although borderline.

commoncents05

<< <i>In my opinion, it is just the standard 1964 Proof Kennedy. From the pictures I do not think it will cameo and is not an SMS. >>



Same here.

-Paul

dcarr

I think the last coin pictured is a "Cameo".

Ethan

My pictures did not turn out so good. The last two are of the same coin different pictures. The only pics that are not of it are the ones I posted from a 64 Proof set, (right above the last two).

stealer

Ethan,

To avoid confusion, I would delete the other proof coin images and try to take images of the coin you find interesting in the same conditions you took the last set of images.

That will help.

Ethan

<< <i>Ethan,

To avoid confusion, I would delete the other proof coin images and try to take images of the coin you find interesting in the same conditions you took the last set of images.

That will help. >>




I tried but the edit choice is not there for the original post...

lcoopie

if edit is missing, check if you are logged in

Ethan

I was logged in but the edit was on the far right and I had to scroll to find it...not sure about the layout I guess. All is good.

Ethan

Well I got some more today and wanted to run them by y'all...

From another forum....

OK folks, back from the show. I found a lot of what I was looking for and then some.

First, I now know for sure that my 64 Proof is not rare, or at least that rare. The Cameo version is out there.

First I will start with one to make you cringe....





now, when you are done laughing, here is what she actually looks like when I took it out of that holder..






I found another one also...this one is the best of he bunch...




And here is my original....still nice




So I now have three really nice ones....




I also got some other goodies...like an 'Accented Hair' 64 in pretty darn good shape..




And I checked it, funny thing is he had two marked AH and because of this board I showed him that the other wasn't. He was ok with it and gave me a 'regular' price on that one..



And a 1966 SMS DDO half, now this is cool, at least to me....my first DDO..



Look real close at the G and D in God...




And I picked up some more 64 proofs etc, but those three were the best for sure. I also picked up a bunch of other things (65,66,67SMS, 68,69,70 proofs) but the wife wanted this one bad...the color is amazing. I would not call it toned but it is unique for sure and beautiful to boot..a 70s proof...



Then a 1965 non SMS that was really nice..



Then a 1966 SMS that was..well very good at least...



And some nice cameo 1970s ones..






Keep in mind some of the scratches are on the plastic but overall I am very pleased...great day indeed..I am very happy.

I really wish we knew more about the actual mintage's of these coins in the 1964.....

WoodenJefferson

Note: I can't be 100% certain, but I think that the seller (coin in ad) is a stock photo image of a 1964 Kennedy proof, unless the ad stated that the coin imaged is the coin you'll receive. A Kennedy out of the few specially minted SMS's are some really rare birds.

Been looking for years and years...nada.

19Lyds

In response to the question about the initial coin being an SMS, the4 1964 Kennedy SMS Coins all have two distinct features.

1. None look like proofs nor could they be considered proofs as all have a "satin" type finish and appear to be well struck business strikes. Die polish lines are abundant on these well struck coins. None have mirrored fields and none are considered Cameo or even have the appearance of Cameo.

2. All the 1964 Kennedy SMS Coins have a common die marker. Specifically, a little die gouge that hangs off the right hand cross bar of the 4 in the date.



I could state without hesitation that the initial coin posted is not a 1964 SMS Kennedy Half. Actually, none of the 1964 coins posted are SMS coins, just regular old proofs.

The AH Kennedy is marginal.

I'm sure that as you continue purchasing these Kennedy Proof's, you'll grow to appreciate the better coins.

Ethan

<< <i>I could state without hesitation that the initial coin posted is not a 1964 SMS Kennedy Half. Actually, none of the 1964 coins posted are SMS coins, just regular old proofs. >>



Agreed, now with that description there is no doubt.



<< <i>The AH Kennedy is marginal. >>



Marginal in what? Its not the most beautiful coin but it is a AH, rays on the back confirm it.



<< <i>I'm sure that as you continue purchasing these Kennedy Proof's, you'll grow to appreciate the better coins. >>



Yes, I agree and am learning as I go. I hope they get rid of them so that they are collected more..

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>I could state without hesitation that the initial coin posted is not a 1964 SMS Kennedy Half. Actually, none of the 1964 coins posted are SMS coins, just regular old proofs. >>



Agreed, now with that description there is no doubt.



<< <i>The AH Kennedy is marginal. >>



Marginal in what? Its not the most beautiful coin but it is a AH, rays on the back confirm it.



<< <i>I'm sure that as you continue purchasing these Kennedy Proof's, you'll grow to appreciate the better coins. >>



Yes, I agree and am learning as I go. I hope they get rid of them so that they are collected more.. >>

I said marginal because there's something going on with the surface of the coin. It appears as if its been messed with given that cloudy appearance around and in the letters of the Motto.

While it is an Accented Hair, there are much better examples out there which would get command higher premiums. I'm not saying that you don;t have a nice variety but what I am saying is that I wouldn't have paid more than a bit over melt for the coin given its condition.

BTW, the rays on the reverse don't confirm anything since the "broken ray" reverse (RDV-001) was also coupled with regular 1964 proof's (ODV-002). For the Accented Hair Obverse (ODV-001) only the markers on the obverse should be used to confirm the variety. Specifically, the "wishbone" above the ear and the truncated serif on the "I".
I do not know why folks continue to use the "broken ray" reverse as validation that the obverse is an accented hair since in doing so, it opens the door for those normal 1964 Proof's with the broken ray reverse to be sold as an Accented Hair.

Ethan

<< <i>I said marginal because there's something going on with the surface of the coin. It appears as if its been messed with given that cloudy appearance around and in the letters of the Motto. >>




Here are some better shots...I know it is not as good as my other ones but it is a AH. It checks all 4 of the items.











One of the best ways to ID one is to use these 4 markers, it is listed on a thread in another forum here:

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CoinCommunityForum

It uses these pictures and it makes it easy..

The Hair



The broken I Serif



The FG initials



The Broken Rays..







<< <i>While it is an Accented Hair, there are much better examples out there which would get command higher premiums. I'm not saying that you don;t have a nice variety but what I am saying is that I wouldn't have paid more than a bit over melt for the coin given its condition. >>



Well that could be true and I tend to agree I paid more than I should have ($35) but I did get my hands on one, which was the goal.




<< <i>BTW, the rays on the reverse don't confirm anything since the "broken ray" reverse (RDV-001) was also coupled with regular 1964 proof's (ODV-002). For the Accented Hair Obverse (ODV-001) only the markers on the obverse should be used to confirm the variety. Specifically, the "wishbone" above the ear and the truncated serif on the "I".
I do not know why folks continue to use the "broken ray" reverse as validation that the obverse is an accented hair since in doing so, it opens the door for those normal 1964 Proof's with the broken ray reverse to be sold as an Accented Hair.Text

True, I just read about the other variety over the weekend. I will have to look and see if I have any more but I doubt it.


Thank you for your reply and information...

Ethan

I have posted the same in another forum, more eyes more answers,


First I was not sure if another thread was needed but it is a different subject and question that I hope a Kennedy expert could answer.

Here is my issue, I have been trying to figure out some things on the Kennedy Proofs from 1964. I am learning a lot but there seems to be some holes that I am not sure of the facts.

The RedBook lists the mintage's as such..

1964 ........ 273,304,004
1964D ........ 156,205,446
1964 Proof ... 3,950,762

What I have gathered so far is that there were and estimated 100k of the Accented Hair variety (Type 1). These were the very first of the proofs issued. Then the transition to the (Type 2) after that.

(Getting some information from a very good book, A Guide Book to Franklin and Kennedy Half Dollars Tomaska)


It estimates that 30%-50% were melted in the 79/80 silver boom.

So I did not know much about these other than the ones I have found roll searching since I was 12. I managed to buy one that I thought very weird and beautiful,



When I got it I was amazed at its condition and thought I had a special coin. After reading many posts here and elsewhere, I came to the conclusion that it was not that uncommon..

In the Half book it lists the varieties such as regular, Cameo, and Deep/Ultra Cameo.

So I went and bought a unopened 1964 Proof set and although it was in great shape it did not look like the one I had at all. Mine was mirrored. I have since bought another unopened 64 proof set and I see the same type of coin. Different than mine by far, again the mirror effect. What I got out of these two proof sets look almost identical,









There is nothing wrong with these other than they are not the mirrored coins that also have. Here are shots of two more that I have,







So the question is, how many of the mirrored types were made? There were mirrored examples of both Type 1 and Type 2. I am sure the grand majority of the proofs were of the un-mirrored type. They are not rare per se but would seem to be much rarer than the plain jane proofs. I know that the Cameo and Deep/Ultra Cameo have to come from the mirrored types.

I can find no information on these or estimated mintage's and such but I would hope that someone much more informed could give me an answer.

I don't mean to be a pain, I just have a need to know the answer and it is driving me nuts. I have five of these now and I just don't understand why there are not separately listed types between the plain jane and the mirrored ones.

SanctionII

The Mint produced almost 4 million proof 1964 half dollars. I do not recall the specific time period during which they were produced, but understand that the Philly mint began producing these proof half dollars in January, 1964. The Accented Hair variety were produced at the beginning of the production run and supposedly account for about 100,000 of the total mintage of just under 4 million. The regular [non AH] variety supposedly came about due to a request by JFK's widow to change the portrait of JFK to modify the appearance of his hair.

No doubt a large number of AH variety half dollars have been lost to attrition, melting, etc.

The quality of 1964 proof half dollars is, overall, very good. The mint cello packaging protects the coin very well and if an OGP set is stored correctly and is not damaged, the half dollar is usually a gem (65 or better). Many (but not all) 1964 proof half dollars have mirrored fields, some deeply mirrored. Some of these half dollars also have mirrored devices with no frost. Others have varying degrees of frost on their devices. On some coins the frost on the devices is so thick on both sides that the coin receives a Cameo, or even a DCAM or UCAM designation from a TPG when graded. Raw high grade (67 or better) 1964 proof half dollars with deeply mirrored, black and watery fields plus white heavily frosted devices are very elusive and are very beautiful. Slabbed examples of these coins in NGC or PCGS holders are readily available on the market.

However, there are other 1964 proof half dollars which are outside of the norm (deeply mirrored brilliant coins; or Cameo/DCAM coins). These other proof half dollars are also very interesting. Some of them have fields which have shallow mirrors, or are non mirrored. Such a coin with non mirrored fields have a Satin look to them. Some of these Satin proof half dollars also have frosted devices.

There are also 1964 proof half dollars which are what I call "tweeners" because depending on lighting conditions, the coin can look like a mirrored proof and can also look like a Satin proof (both Cameo and non Cameo). These coins actually have a mixture of brilliant and Satin fields.

1964 proof half dollars (particularly the AH variety) can be plagued with milk spots, Depending on the size and location of the milk spots, the coin may or may not be worthy of purchase.

Mint cello of the OGP packaging (which varies in thickness, clarity and pliability) can hide/distort the appearance of the coins in the set, including the half dollar. Some coins I think are Satin come out brilliant, some I think are brilliant come out Satin and some I think are Cameo are not.

1964 proof half dollars are fun to collect. They offer lots of variety and can range from very modest in price to very expensive.

I have never seen a 1964 SMS half dollar and would love to see one some day.

The 1965-67 SMS half dollars are where a dedicated Kennedy collector can go crazy. The SMS coins have an amazingly broad and deep selection of coins. Some are very ugly and of low quality. Some look like DCAM proofs.

Many people on the forums have collected the early silver proof and SMS Kennedies over the years. Many threads on these coins have been posted and you can search for these threads. They have lots of information and some really great photographs.

Ethan

Thank you very much..

I have read threads back to 2010 and learned a lot.

So there are mirrored versions, both with Cameo and without. I think I have the ones without but I am not sure. A satin finish is a good way to describe the ones I pulled from proof sets. No mirror but Gems for sure.

I just wonder what the break down of mintage would be between the types. I am pretty sure that is not known but if I can go to a coin show and buy two more of the mirror types then they are surely not rare.

Maybe one day I can find me a good Cameo....the journey continues.

Ethan

Well I have answered my own question. Sort of. The biggest issue I had with my proofs was the mirror effect and not seeing it in the proof sets I had purchased.

For example: Here are both of them side by side..




Notice the mirror with the one on the right. Notice the Satin look of the one on the left.



Same deal, obvious mirrored proof on the right, plain Jane on the left. That is until I cut open the proof set.

What I got was a shock to me. I was trying to describe the difference in words and I was not able to do so. So naturally I thought to put them side by side. Well, I now have my answer..




It was the packaging all the time, my proof that I cut out looks just as goof if not better than the one I purchased before.

So all the Kennedy 64 Proofs are mirrored...

Go figure....


Anyhow thanks for all the advise and help. Now I know.....It would be very hard to get an MS68, so back to the original coin in the thread. MS67 would be generous, It is not a cameo, it is nothing more than a normal 64 proof.

Thanks


Cheers!

Bossman88

There are a number of DDO 64 Kennedy halfs that can be found in the proof sets also.
1964 Kennedy Halfs graded PR68 and PR69 by PCGS are really not that hard to locate.
There are 3,129 certified at PR68 and 1,988 certified at PR69.
Finding high grade cameo or deep cameo coins are possible but can be costly.
1964 Accent Hair PR68 Cameo or Deep Cameo in PR68 will be difficult to locate.
I have been actively looking for a PR68 Deep Cameo for the past four years now. Only 8 certified by our hosts.
So far I have not been able to find one that did not have white mike spots all over the obverse of the coin.
Good luck in your collecting.

Regards, Larry

Ethan

<< <i> >>



??

Now I see the text? It was blank earlier...sorry about that.



<< <i>There are a number of DDO 64 Kennedy halfs that can be found in the proof sets also. >>



I have checked all mine, and no luck so far...




<< <i>1964 Kennedy Halfs graded PR68 and PR69 by PCGS are really not that hard to locate. >>



I am searching for sure, not sure yet as to what I am willing to pay.





<< <i>1964 Accent Hair PR68 Cameo or Deep Cameo in PR68 will be difficult to locate. >>



I will probably settle for a PR67, or PR66 if I can afford it





<< <i>So far I have not been able to find one that did not have white mike spots all over the obverse of the coin >>



I am learning about those also..from the minting process I guess. Same thing I hear happens to Maples now and then.





<< <i>Good luck in your collecting. >>



Thank you and good luck on your search for your elusive PR68!


Good Information, thanks Larry.

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i> >>



?? >>



PR68DCAM
PR68CAM AH
PR68CAM AH
PR69DCAM
PR69DCAM
PR68DCAM AH
PR69DCAM

Spotted PR66 AH

Ethan

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yeah it was blank earlier...
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PR68DCAM
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Spotted PR66 AH >>




Hey thanks for that links, I went and signed up. I am not sure how to bid etc but those were some awesome links and thanks for guiding me to that site. Some of these are $$$$. Looking at past auctions, there are some great deals for sure. I like the site!

I need to read up on how to bid but it looks like there is a buyer's premium etc. I will have to figure all that out.

Ethan

I spent way too much at that auction.....