<< <i>"Let's talk First Spouse coins. Should they be on the list? They doi take up 7 slots and yes they are commemoratives."
Actually Lee, those are bullion coins according to the legislative history on the program approved into law.
Fair points and you certainly get no argument out of me that I also enjoy business strike coins from 1932-date including errors and varieties!
But, to suggest that collectors of silver, gold and platinum coins dated 1982 to date are not real collectors with "real collections" makes it difficult to continue to engage in a thoughtful debate on the subject.
Quick story though ... a few years back on Teletrade I won a 2000 $100 Platinum coin in PCGS-MS70 for a steal of a price (under $5,000). The coin was worth at least $15,000-$20,000 at the time I believe. I had been hunting for an MS70 $100 Platinum dated between 1999 and 2002 for about (10) years. The coin was not a true 70 and I immediately brought it to PCGS to investigate. They agreed (and figured out how the mistake was made) and luckily for them the owner was a PCGS authorized dealer who was so "big" that he did not even look at his coins as they came back from PCGS. He had no problem agreeing to regrade the coin properly, Teletrade agreed to waive their commission on the sale and I asked for nothing. This mistake was cleaned up costing PCGS nothing. Meanwhile, my search continues for an MS70 for this year ... and I will probably NEVER find a true MS70 for this date. So, tell me I am any less of a "collector" or I have any less of a "collection" because I am pursuing the finest possible mint state platinum coin. It is just as FUN and challenging as trying to find a great clad quarter variety to me.
And, how about that 1982 GW Half Commem mentioned here the other day... yes, once again a coin I have been searching for now for 30 years in perfect condition. And, once again, I bought a mistakenly graded PCGS-MS70 last year that needed to go back to PCGS and went from MS70 to MS68. And, once again, I lost a "five figure" paper profit by turning in the coin (which I had no intention of selling though as I had a top Modern MS Half Dollar Commem set at the time ... a project I started with my son many years ago) . This time, PCGS paid me directly what I paid for it sight-unseen and that authorized dealer was able to keep their money (which still makes no sense to me). But, I digress.
The "hunt" for TRUE flawless coins (or as close to it as possible) is just as great FUN as the hunt for a cool variety. Try it for (30) years and get back to me
Wondercoin >>
I think you've misinterpreted what I meant by capitalizing the REAL. It certainly wasn't a slam on folks that collect the bullion pieces as I have a DANSCO collection of SAE's. I gave up with the slabbed versions since no 2 MS/PR70's are alike and there are a lot of MS/PR70's which are actually MS/PR68 or MS/PR69. PCGS will NOT always agree since us commoners don't have their ear.
The intent with capitalizing REAL was to indicate that they were my collections which were not assembled or graded with the intent to sell. Folks can certainly collect what they want but blending bullion into Modern Coins what I want to see as the true modern coins have once again fallen to the wayside of the precious metal pieces which is where, I think, the term Moderns was coined for in the first place.
The goal of a Top 100 Modern Coins list should be to encourage folks to, once again, examine their change for those unexpected treasures and rarities. Throwing mass produced, under ideal situations, bullion pieces is not my idea of a modern coin as much as a modern collectible.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Stephanie: By the way, your autographed Silver Eagle book is sitting in Westwood right now as I intended to bring it the Long Beach show, but we missed each other. Justin now has it at UCLA. If you want to swing by and pick it up, he will treat you at Diddy Riese to an ice cream sandwich!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Looks like the 2012 gold, silver and platinum coins might have produced a couple future prospects for the top 100 rankings:
1. 2012-W $50 Gold Eagle Burnished - Really a "no brainer" with its roughly 6,000 mintage
2. 2012 Star Spangled Banner MS $5 Gold Commem - Very close to a "no brainer" as well with it roughly 7,000 mintage
Longer shots might include the 2012 Proof Buffalo Gold with its sub-20,000 mintage and perhaps even the 2012 $25 Proof Gold with its super low mintage for proof gold?
Wondercoin
edited to add: of course, a 2012 spouse or two might also end up in the running depending upon whether the mintages stay under roughly 2,500 or so for the mint state coins. The first 2012 coin is closing in on 2.300 sold already with no end in sight though
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
What about the 2012 (bullion) and 2012-P five-ounce ATB silver quarters? Two of the "P" coins (Acadia and Hawaii) are sold out with mintages under 15,000. The bullion coins have mintages as low as 20,000, less than 1% of the lowest-mintage bullion Silver Eagle.
<< <i>Overdate ... Remember a couple years back when 27,000 was an incredibly low mintage? Any feeling that 15,000 hasn't hit bottom yet?
Wondercoin >>
I think 15,000 will be the bottom, or close to it. With the Hawaii going for $600 on eBay, a lot of eyes will be on this series for the next few years.
I don't believe any modern silver coin has gone under 14,000 yet.
Spent a good bit of my time here reading up and discussing the Cheerios Dollar. Some were saying it wasn't a coin but a pattern. Some said it was a variety. It's just a coin, and a small dollar few care about. I can't imagine owning or starting a "registry set" of the top 100 moderns as some are impossible. Others are unique, some are almost rare. In the scope of the conversation though, this is just a boost.
I used to feel the "bifurcation" existed between modern and classics. Then I felt the bifurcation was merely between PQ and Widgets... then saw the bifurcation between coins and bullion.
There probably would be no bifurcation if men would quit trying to separate themselves from the very heart of what's at stake here ?
The US Mint's decision to significant raise the "premiums" on the coins containing precious metals may have an equally significant impact on (lower) mintage figures for a number of items in 2013. Stay tuned, but IMHO some of the recent "low mintage winners" may not be all that immune from seeing even lower mintage coins join the ranks this year!
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
"I used to feel the "bifurcation" existed between modern and classics. Then I felt the bifurcation was merely between PQ and Widgets... then saw the bifurcation between coins and bullion."
I believe the "bifurcation" (stigma) is still there quite often for all (3) segments mentioned.
But, the moderns do become classics with the passing of time. I would like to see the collector base grow for non-bullion modern coins. It is just so tempting to buy the latest precious metal offering from the US Mint, especially where they are expected to produce a very limited amount (ex: 25th Anniv. silve sets).
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>But, the moderns do become classics with the passing of time.
Wondercoin >>
I've learned that this statement is simply not true nor will it ever be true.
The designs simply will not allow it as "Dead" regardless of how they are presented is simply not a classical design. Its a modern, politically based design which George Washington would have nothing to do with.
The numbers produced will not support the statement either.
Of course, if you're talking about bullion then all bets are off. Until, that is, the price of bullion, a market commodity, goes into the toilet. How many more 48 ton silver finds from shipwrecks will it take to get silver below $20 an ounce?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Case in point, when I joined these boards, the silver Washington quarter series (1932-64) was considered a "modern" registry set by the classic experts at PCGS. At some point after 2001, that changed and the set was shifted over to the classic side. The "moderns" become "classics" before my very eyes.
Wondercoin
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Using the link that Lee provided, the Liberty Coin Act 99-61 says:
<<Title II: Liberty Coins - Liberty Coin Act - Amends Federal law to direct the Secretary to mint and issue, in quantities sufficient to meet public demand, one dollar silver bullion coins of specified size, weight, and design. Specifies the source of the silver to be used for such coins. Provides for their sale and issuance.>>
Silver Eagles have always been bullion coins.
Regarding the Frosted Freedom Plats, are they error coins or patterns? It seems to me that they were patterns before they became errors.
Regarding Kennedy Halves, are they really coins now? They haven't been used in circulation for decades, and they haven't been made for circulation for over a decade. Doesn't that make them commemoratives now? And now Sac Dollars are in the same category.
I'm of the opinion that the American Eagle Bullion coins serve more as an investment vehicle and can be more accurately regarded as "real money" than any of the current circulation coins.
This is an interesting thread, to be sure.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
David: Hi. I believe the 92-D close am cents have (6) different coin numbers at PCGS which may be why you are only seeing (6) of them in the pop (#83101) when I believe there are now actually (25) coins. So, I also stand (slightly) corrected as we are now into our 3rd dozen, but not at a full 3 dozen coins as of yet.
jmski52 - Bear in mind that most coin experts are an expert in certain specific areas of the coin market, but NOT every area. Modern US "bullion" coins are a specialized area of the US coin market and "experts" in other fields often do not have a clue about them. And, sure it is easy to simply dismiss them or poke fun at them ... heck ... they were doing the same thing with modern art not too long ago. That is, until the modern art started to sell at $20,000,000, then $50,000,000, then $100,000,000 and I believe now at $150,000,000+ It's hard to poke fun at the modern art now (spend a day at the MOMA in NYC and you will be "reborn").
Likewise, spend a day with modern coins (business strikes or great bullion pieces) and watch your appreciation grow! Don't believe me ... send a PM to our esteemed classic coin collector "Oreville" who spent a couple hours with my daughter Lauren screening moderns at the Orlando FUN show last month. Ask him if his appreciation grew after spending an afternoon REALLY getting to know moderns.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Actually Lee, I think you may be wrong this time.
Case in point, when I joined these boards, the silver Washington quarter series (1932-64) was considered a "modern" registry set by the classic experts at PCGS. At some point after 2001, that changed and the set was shifted over to the classic side. The "moderns" become "classics" before my very eyes.
Wondercoin >>
You mean the same experts that wondered how a coin made in 1964 would show up in the Top 100 Modern Coins which were supposedly minted beginning in 1965?
I'll not apologize for my stance regardless of who the "experts" might be (we know they actually flow with the tides anyway) but the Washington Quarter Dollar is not and never will be a "classic" coin. Neither will the Licoln cent, the Roosevelt dime, the Jefferson Nickel, the Kennedy Half Dollar, the Eisenhower Dollar nor tany of the Presidential Dollars.
It's important that the term "classic" not get muddied with "popularity" as it has solely to do with the coins design. Specifically speaking, "Classic" interpretations of Liberty instead of some political leaders portrait.
End of Story.
On the same token, the US Mint "could" begin producing "classic coinage" again just like a building could be built using "classic architecture" instead of "modern architecture".
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
"but the Washington Quarter Dollar is not and never will be a "classic" coin"
Lee: Then, you obviously believe moderns started in 1932 (or earlier) which supports all of the 1964 coinage currently on the list that you question for being on the list right now.
Wondercoin
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<< <i>"but the Washington Quarter Dollar is not and never will be a "classic" coin"
Lee: Then, you obviously believe moderns started in 1932 (or earlier) which supports all of the 1964 coinage currently on the list that you question for being on the list right now.
Wondercoin >>
Thats a fairly lame and dismissive response Mitch. You're looking to put an "absolute date" on Modern Coins and that absolute date does not exist. It's all about the "design" of the coin, not when it was issued or what its metal content might be.
Modern Coinage design started in 1909 with the Lincoln. 1938 with the Jefferson 1946 with the Roosevelt 1932 with the Washington 1948 with the Franklin 1971 with the Eisenhower
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
So, the Mint new pricing for gold spouse coins has the coins at about $1,000/coin even with gold hundreds of dollars lower an oz. than where it had been selling at times in 2011.
So, are we looking at $1,100/coin or even higher the next time spot gold makes a move?
Heck, a number of the gold spouse coins in the Top 100 list do not even sell for $1,100/coin right now!
Might there even be lower mintages ahead based upon the new cost of these coins? Or, has the US Mint calculated that they can sell 2,250 MS coins and 3,000+ proofs regardless of their price point so that the price hike will only be added profits to the Mint but will not lower total sales down the line?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
How do the 2013 premiums on First Spouse coins compare (percentage-wise) with the premiums charged by the Mint when the series was launched in 2007?
Gold was much lower then, so a 25% premium to bullion value would have been less in dollar terms, but still enough to discourage people looking to purchase gold coins at near-bullion prices.
I don't consider the First Spouses to be bullion coins, even if they do display their weight and fineness. They have never been marketed by the Mint as bullion coins, and have never been available from the primary source (the Mint) at bullion prices.
<< <i> Or, has the US Mint calculated that they can sell 2,250 MS coins and 3,000+ proofs regardless of their price point so that the price hike will only be added profits to the Mint but will not lower total sales down the line?
Wondercoin >>
yes they can....
the "number" is too close to that "all time- extreme low modern- you gotta have it" coin.....all you have to do is have someone on the board say "its going dark" and hundreds of orders flood the USMint system....no one wants to miss the chance to own the lowest pop coin....and that will drive sales
so can they blow out 2250/3000....absolutely...even at the new ridiculous price level
Djm. Great question. By 5 liberty spouse are you including alice paul? Otherwise the question to lee only involves 4 coins in ms and proof. Wondercoin.
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<< <i>I do not have access to coinfacts tonight but I can tell you that many of the sms roosie dimes are not full band. Wondercoin. >>
Unfortunate;ly, only one SMS Jefferson is listed on CoinFacts and I expect that many would argue its not Full Steps. But then, that begs the question, if the 1964 (supposed - for Caleb) SMS coins qualify for the FS Designation, why don;t the 1965-1967 SMS coins qualify for the Designation.
Better yet, why are the 1964 SMS coins treated like circulation strikes yet the 1965-1967 SMS coins are treated like proofs?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Lee suggests for example that his 1970-D DDO quarter which is on ebay (and has been for a long time) at an asking price of just under $2,900 in AU55 condition deserves to be in the Top 100 rankings. He points out the coin has (2) known the other also being an AU example that sold at Heritage for under $1,300 not too long ago. I pointed out that I also own a very neat 1965 DDO Washington Quarter where there are currently 2 or 3 known and my coin is in the finest known Mint State grade at PCGS and is valued at $1,500. I also pointed out that I own a 1965 Silver Washington Quarter grading PCGS-MS64 which is not on the list at all. This coin has about a half dozen or so coins known with nearly all of them being XF-AU quality. These coins sell for close to $10,000 now in the circulated grades (compare for example the AU 1943 bronze cent I just sold at auction this month for well over $300,000 with buyers fee). My MS64 example of the 1965 Silver Quarter is worth a boatload of money ... perhaps 10x,, if not 20x, the value of either Lee's 1970-D DDO quarter or my 1965 DDO quarter. My 1965 Silver Quarter is not on PCGS's Top 100 list and I am not even suggesting they include in the next round of changes.
Wondercoin >>
The 1965 Silver Quarter is an "off metal Error". Should errors be included on the list? I don't think so.
Your 1965 DDO should be since its a Variety right up there with the 69-S DDO Lincoln.
Of course, the Sacagawea Mule is also an error of sorts so maybe PCGS, or the board of experts, really want to include errors? If so, then throw in the Off Metal IKE's/Kennedy's?
Whatever as it really doesn't matter since the "List" is nothing more than a shopping list with "unobtainable" coins thrown onto it to attract attention. I mean, really, Do you suppose someone would actually register their 1964-D Peace Dollar, 1974 Aluminum Cent or their 22 kt Sacagawea?
For the life of me, I don;t know why I've wasted so much time on this thread which rightfully belongs on the Set Registry Forum but then, like including the 22Kt Sacagawea's, 1974 Aluminum Cents amd 1964-D Peace Dollar, it just wouldn't get the exposure it deserves on the Set Registry Forum. Now would it?
Bye.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
The 1970-d kennedy half dollar in top pop grade of ms67 has now gone from pop 2 to pop 3. This date is one of the toughest kennedy mint states in ms67. This date typically comes marky with striking problems. I personally started hunting for ms67 specimens of this date back in 1983 and thus far have found one coin in the past nearly 30 years. One of the coolest modern coins of the 1970's. Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>The 1970-d kennedy half dollar in top pop grade of ms67 has now gone from pop 2 to pop 3. This date is one of the toughest kennedy mint states in ms67. This date typically comes marky with striking problems. I personally started hunting for ms67 specimens of this date back in 1983 and thus far have found one coin in the past nearly 30 years. One of the coolest modern coins of the 1970's. Wondercoin. >>
You started early enough. This date wasn't much picked over until about 10 years ago. Now you just have to get lucky and find a set that's been off the market longer than ten years and there aren't a lot around. A lot of these are tarnished now days reducing the chances too.
In the old days this was a great date to search since there were lots of nice Gemmy coins with about 3% being near MS-65 or better. Better was scarce and most were MS-66. I've got one real nice example but I paid through the nose for it in about 1977. It even had an MS-67 sm dt in the same set! I'm not sure it will go 67 but it's right up there.
A lot of the Gems have probably been degraded over the years because a lot of these coins have been pushed into folders and albums and there was a time they were only worth about $3 each.
<< <i> The 1965 Silver Quarter is an "off metal Error". Should errors be included on the list? I don't think so. >>
Normally I'd agree with you trhat "transition errors" are "just errors.
But I believe it's different with the '64 and '65 off metal strikes because there are so many varieties and types in existence and far more that are possible but don't exist. It's also less of an "error" simply because they were striking silver and clad simultaneosly making some of these coins more a "foregone" conclusion than strictly an error. Think of it this way; in order for a 1943 bronze coin to be struck it would be almost impossible at any time in '43 for an individual to intentionally cause this. This implies a higher probability that an example is an "error" caused by a planchet falling out of the woodwork or getting stuck in equipment. But from August 1965 until February 1966 there were both silver and clad planchets all through the mints. People could easily have tossed a few here and there so it's a wonder there aren't substantial numbers of them.
The 1964 clad quarter has always been one of my favorite coins. I just don't think of it as an error. It's a wonder it was spotted before it wore down to VG really.
I have to agree with Lee on the classic/modern issue. And while I have "ZERO" interest in moderns or the top 10 modern set...I will not bash those who do. To each their own....I just don't understand it.
<< <i>Grade your 70d kennedy. If it comes back ms67 you made $5000. Ms67+ and you can name your price. >>
I'll tell you why I don't do just this.
In 1970 there were about 60,000 really nice attractive '70-D half dollars. These just stood head and shoulders above most of the rest. No one was in the least interested. There weren't a dozen people who even looked at these sets and wanted to add a Gem to his collection. Col- lectors didn't think like that in those days. If they wanted a '70-D half, which was unlikely, they went to the corner coin shop and picked the mint set off the top. Some would send away to a wholesaler because they thought it was wrong to cut up a mint set even if it was a lot cheaper.
Over the years the number of surviving mint sets has just kept eroding away as the wholesalers cut them up for collectors and collectors cut them up. Around 1980 a few people started paying attention to quality but most just wanted a nice specimen for their collection. It was at this point that the attrition for nicer sets started going higher than attrition for typical sets and this has ac- celerated over the years.
At the current point in time a great percentage of those 60,000 coins are gone or degraded and their incidence in mint sets is far lower than the original 3% (probably ~.5%) and most of the mint sets are gone. In other words only some 25,000 nice specimens survive yet many of these don't even have a premium because they'd only grade MS-64 with the tight grading standards now in place. In other words demand is so puny that 25,000 coins dwarfs it.
Curiously 25,000 is probably fairly close to the number of '16-D dimes in existence and these start at about $300. Getting $15 for an MS-64 '70-D would be tough unless it's slabbed and it costs that much to slab it!!
It just seems that selling with demand at such low levels might not be a good plan. Yes, it's poss- ible that demand for high end coins could decrease but it seems impossible that demand for nice attractive '70-D half dollars won't ratchet much higher. People also need to realize MS-66 and 67 '70-D's are irreplaceable unless they want to pay thousands of dollars.
I suppose I just like owning this coin and believe we ain't seen nothing yet as far as prices go. I'm just still more a collector than a speculator and this could even still be true after prices go higher. Of course I'll have to sell off some of the excess in order to buy the rarities I've missed over the years. You'll get first refusal.
Dimeman. The liberty seated dime registry set (1837-1891) has 10 participants after roughly 14 years of activity. The top 100 modern set has 17 participants after about 7 weeks of activity. I personally enjoy both sets. And it appears many collectors like the top 100 set which is what this particular thread topic covers. I will continue to address issues related to the top 100 set and hopefully collectors who enjoy this set will stop by often. Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
<< <i>Find me a pretty GW Half Stephanie and then we can talk
Wondercoin >>
If I find one, can I just show it to you?
Because it would be in my type set
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
<< <i>"Let's talk First Spouse coins. Should they be on the list? They doi take up 7 slots and yes they are commemoratives."
Actually Lee, those are bullion coins according to the legislative history on the program approved into law.
Fair points and you certainly get no argument out of me that I also enjoy business strike coins from 1932-date including errors and varieties!
But, to suggest that collectors of silver, gold and platinum coins dated 1982 to date are not real collectors with "real collections" makes it difficult to continue to engage in a thoughtful debate on the subject.
Quick story though ... a few years back on Teletrade I won a 2000 $100 Platinum coin in PCGS-MS70 for a steal of a price (under $5,000). The coin was worth at least $15,000-$20,000 at the time I believe. I had been hunting for an MS70 $100 Platinum dated between 1999 and 2002 for about (10) years. The coin was not a true 70 and I immediately brought it to PCGS to investigate. They agreed (and figured out how the mistake was made) and luckily for them the owner was a PCGS authorized dealer who was so "big" that he did not even look at his coins as they came back from PCGS. He had no problem agreeing to regrade the coin properly, Teletrade agreed to waive their commission on the sale and I asked for nothing. This mistake was cleaned up costing PCGS nothing. Meanwhile, my search continues for an MS70 for this year ... and I will probably NEVER find a true MS70 for this date. So, tell me I am any less of a "collector" or I have any less of a "collection" because I am pursuing the finest possible mint state platinum coin. It is just as FUN and challenging as trying to find a great clad quarter variety to me.
And, how about that 1982 GW Half Commem mentioned here the other day... yes, once again a coin I have been searching for now for 30 years in perfect condition. And, once again, I bought a mistakenly graded PCGS-MS70 last year that needed to go back to PCGS and went from MS70 to MS68. And, once again, I lost a "five figure" paper profit by turning in the coin (which I had no intention of selling though as I had a top Modern MS Half Dollar Commem set at the time ... a project I started with my son many years ago) . This time, PCGS paid me directly what I paid for it sight-unseen and that authorized dealer was able to keep their money (which still makes no sense to me). But, I digress.
The "hunt" for TRUE flawless coins (or as close to it as possible) is just as great FUN as the hunt for a cool variety. Try it for (30) years and get back to me
Wondercoin >>
I think you've misinterpreted what I meant by capitalizing the REAL. It certainly wasn't a slam on folks that collect the bullion pieces as I have a DANSCO collection of SAE's. I gave up with the slabbed versions since no 2 MS/PR70's are alike and there are a lot of MS/PR70's which are actually MS/PR68 or MS/PR69. PCGS will NOT always agree since us commoners don't have their ear.
The intent with capitalizing REAL was to indicate that they were my collections which were not assembled or graded with the intent to sell. Folks can certainly collect what they want but blending bullion into Modern Coins what I want to see as the true modern coins have once again fallen to the wayside of the precious metal pieces which is where, I think, the term Moderns was coined for in the first place.
The goal of a Top 100 Modern Coins list should be to encourage folks to, once again, examine their change for those unexpected treasures and rarities. Throwing mass produced, under ideal situations, bullion pieces is not my idea of a modern coin as much as a modern collectible.
The name is LEE!
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
1. 2012-W $50 Gold Eagle Burnished - Really a "no brainer" with its roughly 6,000 mintage
2. 2012 Star Spangled Banner MS $5 Gold Commem - Very close to a "no brainer" as well with it roughly 7,000 mintage
Longer shots might include the 2012 Proof Buffalo Gold with its sub-20,000 mintage and perhaps even the 2012 $25 Proof Gold with its super low mintage for proof gold?
Wondercoin
edited to add: of course, a 2012 spouse or two might also end up in the running depending upon whether the mintages stay under roughly 2,500 or so for the mint state coins. The first 2012 coin is closing in on 2.300 sold already with no end in sight though
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>Are restrikes allowed? >>
My understanding is that U.S. coins cannot be struck with a previous year's date.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Wondercoin
<< <i>Overdate ... Remember a couple years back when 27,000 was an incredibly low mintage? Any feeling that 15,000 hasn't hit bottom yet?
Wondercoin >>
I think 15,000 will be the bottom, or close to it. With the Hawaii going for $600 on eBay, a lot of eyes will be on this series for the next few years.
I don't believe any modern silver coin has gone under 14,000 yet.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I used to feel the "bifurcation" existed between modern and classics. Then I felt the bifurcation was merely between PQ and Widgets... then saw the bifurcation between coins and bullion.
There probably would be no bifurcation if men would quit trying to separate themselves from the very heart of what's at stake here ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I believe the "bifurcation" (stigma) is still there quite often for all (3) segments mentioned.
But, the moderns do become classics with the passing of time. I would like to see the collector base grow for non-bullion modern coins. It is just so tempting to buy the latest precious metal offering from the US Mint, especially where they are expected to produce a very limited amount (ex: 25th Anniv. silve sets).
Wondercoin
<< <i>But, the moderns do become classics with the passing of time.
Wondercoin >>
I've learned that this statement is simply not true nor will it ever be true.
The designs simply will not allow it as "Dead" regardless of how they are presented is simply not a classical design. Its a modern, politically based design which George Washington would have nothing to do with.
The numbers produced will not support the statement either.
Of course, if you're talking about bullion then all bets are off. Until, that is, the price of bullion, a market commodity, goes into the toilet.
How many more 48 ton silver finds from shipwrecks will it take to get silver below $20 an ounce?
The name is LEE!
Case in point, when I joined these boards, the silver Washington quarter series (1932-64) was considered a "modern" registry set by the classic experts at PCGS. At some point after 2001, that changed and the set was shifted over to the classic side. The "moderns" become "classics" before my very eyes.
Wondercoin
<<Title II: Liberty Coins - Liberty Coin Act - Amends Federal law to direct the Secretary to mint and issue, in quantities sufficient to meet public demand, one dollar silver bullion coins of specified size, weight, and design. Specifies the source of the silver to be used for such coins. Provides for their sale and issuance.>>
Silver Eagles have always been bullion coins.
Regarding the Frosted Freedom Plats, are they error coins or patterns? It seems to me that they were patterns before they became errors.
Regarding Kennedy Halves, are they really coins now? They haven't been used in circulation for decades, and they haven't been made for circulation for over a decade. Doesn't that make them commemoratives now? And now Sac Dollars are in the same category.
I'm of the opinion that the American Eagle Bullion coins serve more as an investment vehicle and can be more accurately regarded as "real money" than any of the current circulation coins.
This is an interesting thread, to be sure.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Maybe it is because around 3 dozen of these coins have already been found when just a few years ago there were only a handful known? >>
Mitch, re the 1992-D Close AM: where are these? I still see only 6 total at PCGS.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
83099 - 11 coins
83100 - 0 coins
83101 - 6 coins
391427 - 5 coins
391428 - 0 coins
391429 - 3 coins
Wondercoin
Likewise, spend a day with modern coins (business strikes or great bullion pieces) and watch your appreciation grow! Don't believe me ... send a PM to our esteemed classic coin collector "Oreville" who spent a couple hours with my daughter Lauren screening moderns at the Orlando FUN show last month. Ask him if his appreciation grew after spending an afternoon REALLY getting to know moderns.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Actually Lee, I think you may be wrong this time.
Case in point, when I joined these boards, the silver Washington quarter series (1932-64) was considered a "modern" registry set by the classic experts at PCGS. At some point after 2001, that changed and the set was shifted over to the classic side. The "moderns" become "classics" before my very eyes.
Wondercoin >>
You mean the same experts that wondered how a coin made in 1964 would show up in the Top 100 Modern Coins which were supposedly minted beginning in 1965?
I'll not apologize for my stance regardless of who the "experts" might be (we know they actually flow with the tides anyway) but the Washington Quarter Dollar is not and never will be a "classic" coin. Neither will the Licoln cent, the Roosevelt dime, the Jefferson Nickel, the Kennedy Half Dollar, the Eisenhower Dollar nor tany of the Presidential Dollars.
It's important that the term "classic" not get muddied with "popularity" as it has solely to do with the coins design. Specifically speaking, "Classic" interpretations of Liberty instead of some political leaders portrait.
End of Story.
On the same token, the US Mint "could" begin producing "classic coinage" again just like a building could be built using "classic architecture" instead of "modern architecture".
The name is LEE!
Lee: Then, you obviously believe moderns started in 1932 (or earlier) which supports all of the 1964 coinage currently on the list that you question for being on the list right now.
Wondercoin
<< <i>"but the Washington Quarter Dollar is not and never will be a "classic" coin"
Lee: Then, you obviously believe moderns started in 1932 (or earlier) which supports all of the 1964 coinage currently on the list that you question for being on the list right now.
Wondercoin
Thats a fairly lame and dismissive response Mitch. You're looking to put an "absolute date" on Modern Coins and that absolute date does not exist. It's all about the "design" of the coin, not when it was issued or what its metal content might be.
Modern Coinage design started in 1909 with the Lincoln.
1938 with the Jefferson
1946 with the Roosevelt
1932 with the Washington
1948 with the Franklin
1971 with the Eisenhower
The name is LEE!
That said ... I would have no problem (personally) starting an additional "Top 100 Modern" set from 1932 to date. That would be fun to build.
Wondercoin
(Don't shoot! I'm kidding.)
So, are we looking at $1,100/coin or even higher the next time spot gold makes a move?
Heck, a number of the gold spouse coins in the Top 100 list do not even sell for $1,100/coin right now!
Might there even be lower mintages ahead based upon the new cost of these coins? Or, has the US Mint calculated that they can sell 2,250 MS coins and 3,000+ proofs regardless of their price point so that the price hike will only be added profits to the Mint but will not lower total sales down the line?
Wondercoin
Gold was much lower then, so a 25% premium to bullion value would have been less in dollar terms, but still enough to discourage people looking to purchase gold coins at near-bullion prices.
I don't consider the First Spouses to be bullion coins, even if they do display their weight and fineness. They have never been marketed by the Mint as bullion coins, and have never been available from the primary source (the Mint) at bullion prices.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I agree ... notwithstanding the clear legislative history and directive to have the mint treat these coins like "bullion".
Wondercoin
<< <i> Or, has the US Mint calculated that they can sell 2,250 MS coins and 3,000+ proofs regardless of their price point so that the price hike will only be added profits to the Mint but will not lower total sales down the line?
Wondercoin >>
yes they can....
the "number" is too close to that "all time- extreme low modern- you gotta have it" coin.....all you have to do is have someone on the board say "its going dark" and hundreds of orders flood the USMint system....no one wants to miss the chance to own the lowest pop coin....and that will drive sales
so can they blow out 2250/3000....absolutely...even at the new ridiculous price level
jmho
gyros
Do you consider the 5 Liberty First Spouse coins to be classic coins or Mordern Coins??
<< <i>Here's my question for Lee:
Do you consider the 5 Liberty First Spouse coins to be classic coins or Mordern Coins?? >>
Well they're kinda o0f a cross now aren't they?
Remake of a Classic Design on the obverse with a modern medallic design on the Reverse.
What do you think?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>This is off-topic here. It should be on the Set Registry forum.
(Don't shoot! I'm kidding.)
This is a fair question.
Why isn't it on the Set Registry Forum?
The name is LEE!
I mean, I know what RD Bonus is as you get a Bonus for havong a Copper Lincoln coin grade "RD"
and CAM and DCAM Bonuses are obvious.
Whats the FS Bonus and why is it only on the 1964 Jefferson SMS Coin.
And for that matter, why are the 1964 SMS Coins even in the set? Couldn't they be replaced with some other low mintage "Modern Bullion Coins"?
The name is LEE!
Wondercoin
<< <i>Anyway, since this thread is about the Top 100 Modern Coins Registry Set, exactly what is this in the Set Composition?
I mean, I know what RD Bonus is as you get a Bonus for havong a Copper Lincoln coin grade "RD"
and CAM and DCAM Bonuses are obvious.
Whats the FS Bonus and why is it only on the 1964 Jefferson SMS Coin.
And for that matter, why are the 1964 SMS Coins even in the set? Couldn't they be replaced with some other low mintage "Modern Bullion Coins"? >>
Ah. Thanks.
But, wouldn't these all be Full Steps?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I do not have access to coinfacts tonight but I can tell you that many of the sms roosie dimes are not full band. Wondercoin. >>
Unfortunate;ly, only one SMS Jefferson is listed on CoinFacts and I expect that many would argue its not Full Steps. But then, that begs the question, if the 1964 (supposed - for Caleb) SMS coins qualify for the FS Designation, why don;t the 1965-1967 SMS coins qualify for the Designation.
Better yet, why are the 1964 SMS coins treated like circulation strikes yet the 1965-1967 SMS coins are treated like proofs?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Lee suggests for example that his 1970-D DDO quarter which is on ebay (and has been for a long time) at an asking price of just under $2,900 in AU55 condition deserves to be in the Top 100 rankings. He points out the coin has (2) known the other also being an AU example that sold at Heritage for under $1,300 not too long ago. I pointed out that I also own a very neat 1965 DDO Washington Quarter where there are currently 2 or 3 known and my coin is in the finest known Mint State grade at PCGS and is valued at $1,500. I also pointed out that I own a 1965 Silver Washington Quarter grading PCGS-MS64 which is not on the list at all. This coin has about a half dozen or so coins known with nearly all of them being XF-AU quality. These coins sell for close to $10,000 now in the circulated grades (compare for example the AU 1943 bronze cent I just sold at auction this month for well over $300,000 with buyers fee). My MS64 example of the 1965 Silver Quarter is worth a boatload of money ... perhaps 10x,, if not 20x, the value of either Lee's 1970-D DDO quarter or my 1965 DDO quarter. My 1965 Silver Quarter is not on PCGS's Top 100 list and I am not even suggesting they include in the next round of changes.
Wondercoin >>
The 1965 Silver Quarter is an "off metal Error". Should errors be included on the list? I don't think so.
Your 1965 DDO should be since its a Variety right up there with the 69-S DDO Lincoln.
Of course, the Sacagawea Mule is also an error of sorts so maybe PCGS, or the board of experts, really want to include errors? If so, then throw in the Off Metal IKE's/Kennedy's?
Whatever as it really doesn't matter since the "List" is nothing more than a shopping list with "unobtainable" coins thrown onto it to attract attention. I mean, really, Do you suppose someone would actually register their 1964-D Peace Dollar, 1974 Aluminum Cent or their 22 kt Sacagawea?
For the life of me, I don;t know why I've wasted so much time on this thread which rightfully belongs on the Set Registry Forum but then, like including the 22Kt Sacagawea's, 1974 Aluminum Cents amd 1964-D Peace Dollar, it just wouldn't get the exposure it deserves on the Set Registry Forum. Now would it?
Bye.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>The 1970-d kennedy half dollar in top pop grade of ms67 has now gone from pop 2 to pop 3. This date is one of the toughest kennedy mint states in ms67. This date typically comes marky with striking problems. I personally started hunting for ms67 specimens of this date back in 1983 and thus far have found one coin in the past nearly 30 years. One of the coolest modern coins of the 1970's. Wondercoin. >>
You started early enough. This date wasn't much picked over until about 10 years ago. Now
you just have to get lucky and find a set that's been off the market longer than ten years and
there aren't a lot around. A lot of these are tarnished now days reducing the chances too.
In the old days this was a great date to search since there were lots of nice Gemmy coins with
about 3% being near MS-65 or better. Better was scarce and most were MS-66. I've got one
real nice example but I paid through the nose for it in about 1977. It even had an MS-67 sm dt
in the same set! I'm not sure it will go 67 but it's right up there.
A lot of the Gems have probably been degraded over the years because a lot of these coins have
been pushed into folders and albums and there was a time they were only worth about $3 each.
<< <i>
The 1965 Silver Quarter is an "off metal Error". Should errors be included on the list? I don't think so.
>>
Normally I'd agree with you trhat "transition errors" are "just errors.
But I believe it's different with the '64 and '65 off metal strikes because there are so many varieties and
types in existence and far more that are possible but don't exist. It's also less of an "error" simply because
they were striking silver and clad simultaneosly making some of these coins more a "foregone" conclusion
than strictly an error. Think of it this way; in order for a 1943 bronze coin to be struck it would be almost
impossible at any time in '43 for an individual to intentionally cause this. This implies a higher probability that
an example is an "error" caused by a planchet falling out of the woodwork or getting stuck in equipment.
But from August 1965 until February 1966 there were both silver and clad planchets all through the mints.
People could easily have tossed a few here and there so it's a wonder there aren't substantial numbers
of them.
The 1964 clad quarter has always been one of my favorite coins. I just don't think of it as an error. It's
a wonder it was spotted before it wore down to VG really.
<< <i>Grade your 70d kennedy. If it comes back ms67 you made $5000. Ms67+ and you can name your price. >>
I'll tell you why I don't do just this.
In 1970 there were about 60,000 really nice attractive '70-D half dollars. These just stood
head and shoulders above most of the rest. No one was in the least interested. There weren't
a dozen people who even looked at these sets and wanted to add a Gem to his collection. Col-
lectors didn't think like that in those days. If they wanted a '70-D half, which was unlikely, they
went to the corner coin shop and picked the mint set off the top. Some would send away to a
wholesaler because they thought it was wrong to cut up a mint set even if it was a lot cheaper.
Over the years the number of surviving mint sets has just kept eroding away as the wholesalers
cut them up for collectors and collectors cut them up. Around 1980 a few people started paying
attention to quality but most just wanted a nice specimen for their collection. It was at this point
that the attrition for nicer sets started going higher than attrition for typical sets and this has ac-
celerated over the years.
At the current point in time a great percentage of those 60,000 coins are gone or degraded and
their incidence in mint sets is far lower than the original 3% (probably ~.5%) and most of the mint
sets are gone. In other words only some 25,000 nice specimens survive yet many of these don't
even have a premium because they'd only grade MS-64 with the tight grading standards now in
place. In other words demand is so puny that 25,000 coins dwarfs it.
Curiously 25,000 is probably fairly close to the number of '16-D dimes in existence and these start
at about $300. Getting $15 for an MS-64 '70-D would be tough unless it's slabbed and it costs that
much to slab it!!
It just seems that selling with demand at such low levels might not be a good plan. Yes, it's poss-
ible that demand for high end coins could decrease but it seems impossible that demand for nice
attractive '70-D half dollars won't ratchet much higher. People also need to realize MS-66 and 67
'70-D's are irreplaceable unless they want to pay thousands of dollars.
I suppose I just like owning this coin and believe we ain't seen nothing yet as far as prices go. I'm
just still more a collector than a speculator and this could even still be true after prices go higher. Of
course I'll have to sell off some of the excess in order to buy the rarities I've missed over the years.
You'll get first refusal.