Oh, Randy Moss
CNote
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in Sports Talk
CNote
Posts: 2,070 ✭
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Sure fire HOF no question about it.
In their primes I say Moss was better but overall career package Rice is the better choice.
His last year for each team (when he displayed a piss-poor attitude) is what really kept his numbers down. He'd have another 50-60 catches (putting him well over 1,000), another 10-12 TDs, and another 800-1000 yards receiving if he acted like a professional instead of wearing out his welcome in MIN, OAK, and NE.
His physical abilities (speed, athleticism) dwarfed Rice's. Rice just played in a great system with 2 of the top 3 or 4 QBs of all time, and kept himself in great shape for a really long time. From a talent perspective, his claim of being the best ever is probably accurate (although Megatron or Fitz may be even more talented). But Rice was so consistent for so long, it's hard to put anyone above him.
As a long suffering Vikings fan, I call B.S. on that comment. He took a lot of plays off when he saw double coverage and he took plays off when Quarterback was in trouble. He also left the game early at least once because he was "tired".
Moss was truely great his first few years, after Criss Carter retired Moss didn't listen to anyone. He became a selfish player and a quitter.
Joe
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<< <i>The plays he took off were the ones where he wasn't getting the ball. Not saying I condone that attitude, but it didn't contribute to a drop in his numbers. If you want to use it as an reason for putting Rice over him, I'm OK with that.
His last year for each team (when he displayed a piss-poor attitude) is what really kept his numbers down. He'd have another 50-60 catches (putting him well over 1,000), another 10-12 TDs, and another 800-1000 yards receiving if he acted like a professional instead of wearing out his welcome in MIN, OAK, and NE.
His physical abilities (speed, athleticism) dwarfed Rice's. Rice just played in a great system with 2 of the top 3 or 4 QBs of all time, and kept himself in great shape for a really long time. From a talent perspective, his claim of being the best ever is probably accurate (although Megatron or Fitz may be even more talented). But Rice was so consistent for so long, it's hard to put anyone above him. >>
I wouldn't say Steve Young was one of the best 3 or 4 QBs of all time, but...
<< <i>I wouldn't say Steve Young was one of the best 3 or 4 QBs of all time, but... >>
Steve Young is the best I've ever seen.
Tabe
<< <i>
<< <i>I wouldn't say Steve Young was one of the best 3 or 4 QBs of all time, but... >>
Steve Young is the best I've ever seen.
Tabe >>
A matter of opinion but without question in my mind a definate top 5
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I wouldn't say Steve Young was one of the best 3 or 4 QBs of all time, but... >>
Steve Young is the best I've ever seen.
Tabe >>
A matter of opinion but without question in my mind a definate top 5 >>
This. MJ
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Moss best ever? He did have more raw talent than anyone I've seen. He just didn't put it to use all the time.
I'll leave Steve Young to another topic but Tabe is on the right track.
<< <i>Moss ain't even in the same league as Jerry Rice. Not even close. No even some what close. >>
Can you explain why you think this?
At the top of both their games Moss was superior to Rice physically and athleticaly, to say its not even close then reinforcing it with not even some what close baffles me.
<< <i>Moss ain't even in the same league as Jerry Rice. Not even close. No even some what close. >>
You're either a Rice fan or someone who despises Moss. To suggest he's not in the same league suggests you're one or the other. Rice benefited from having two hall of fame QBs to play with, and a 49er team loaded with perennial all pros.
In their respective primes, there was no more dangerous receiver than Randy Moss (and I was never a fan of his), but to suggest he wasn't in the same league is to willfully look past the truth that is there.
numbers would likely be reversed. You cannot discount the impact of the guy feeding you the ball on your career numbers. Personally, I like Rice better as a team player, but to
say that Moss is nowhere even close to being as good as Rice was is shortsighted and simply not taking the entire picture into context.
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Emmitt Smith has 3 rings, the rushing record and rushing TD's record along with many other career marks. Does that make him slam dunk better than Sanders, Payton, Simpson or Brown. I'm a huge Cowboy's fan, but even I know that's not the case.
Stats only tell part of the story.
<< <i>Coming in late, but I completely agree with the assertion that Rice benefitted much more from his QB's than Moss did on the whole. Moss gave Cunningham his greatest season as a QB, he helped make a name for Culpepper. Rice played with 2 of the all time greats for the better part of his career. And, when he went to Oakland, it happened to be when Gannon was the #2 rated passer 2 years in a row. Check out Rice's numbers in San Fran after Young went down, for good, in week 3 of 1999. Obviously an argument can be made that Rice is the greatest of all time, based mainly on his stats. He was consistent, disciiplined and without any real weakness. However, anyone trying to say that Moss does not belong in the same breath is, as previously suggested, a Moss hater, a Rice lover, or simply did not watch the 2 of them play.
Emmitt Smith has 3 rings, the rushing record and rushing TD's record along with many other career marks. Does that make him slam dunk better than Sanders, Payton, Simpson or Brown. I'm a huge Cowboy's fan, but even I know that's not the case.
Stats only tell part of the story. >>
Well put and completely accurate...I didn't know Cowboy fans had the ability to be objective, either..
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It wasnt always easy to be objective when discussing my 'Boys. However, since the post Aikman period began, a degree of humility has been inevitably shoved down my throat
He was just not as good as Smith....period!
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<< <i>There is no comparison. Rice was known for his incredible work ethic. He was always dressed and ready hours before every game he played. He was a straight up guy, he kept his mouth shut and just played. He led by example. Randy Moss was considered a cancer on most of the teams he played on. That is why he bounced around the league. Randy also had great quarterbacks throwing to him but his attitude got in the way. Sorry but its really an insult to Jerry Rice to compare Randy to him. >>
First, Rice's work ethic has no bearing on this conversation, but suggesting that he was any more dedicated to his craft than a vast majority of pro players is as disingenuous as it gets. It's the same tired argument the talking heads have trotted out in trying to prop up Tebow. EVERY pro is prepared, EVERY pro works hard. So what if Moss talked? His game backed up his talk. Secondly, Moss had great quarterbacks throwing to him? Other than Brady (and we saw how amazing his time in NE was), what hall of fame QBs were throwing to Moss? Rice had 13 years of Hall of Fame QBs throwing to him, and three more with All Pro Jeff Garcia. That's 16 years for him to accumulate numbers.
The people suggesting that there's no comparison are people who dislike brash players - period. The numbers (and the objective eye test) will tell any real sports fan they were actually very close.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is no comparison. Rice was known for his incredible work ethic. He was always dressed and ready hours before every game he played. He was a straight up guy, he kept his mouth shut and just played. He led by example. Randy Moss was considered a cancer on most of the teams he played on. That is why he bounced around the league. Randy also had great quarterbacks throwing to him but his attitude got in the way. Sorry but its really an insult to Jerry Rice to compare Randy to him. >>
First, Rice's work ethic has no bearing on this conversation, but suggesting that he was any more dedicated to his craft than a vast majority of pro players is as disingenuous as it gets. It's the same tired argument the talking heads have trotted out in trying to prop up Tebow. EVERY pro is prepared, EVERY pro works hard. So what if Moss talked? His game backed up his talk. Secondly, Moss had great quarterbacks throwing to him? Other than Brady (and we saw how amazing his time in NE was), what hall of fame QBs were throwing to Moss? Rice had 13 years of Hall of Fame QBs throwing to him, and three more with All Pro Jeff Garcia. That's 16 years for him to accumulate numbers.
The people suggesting that there's no comparison are people who dislike brash players - period. The numbers (and the objective eye test) will tell any real sports fan they were actually very close. >>
Of course Rice's work ethic has a bearing here, if all we were talking about was raw talent, then yes Moss had the most, size(tallest), speed, and hands I have ever seen.
The work ethic spills over onto the field Randy simply dissapeared when the going got tough. Has nothing to do with his off-field behavior or brash statements, but his clubhouse behavior does come into play, it was obvious several of the Vikings key players couldn't stand him. When the going got tough Randy was a quitter. Time and time again.
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>There is no comparison. Rice was known for his incredible work ethic. He was always dressed and ready hours before every game he played. He was a straight up guy, he kept his mouth shut and just played. He led by example. Randy Moss was considered a cancer on most of the teams he played on. That is why he bounced around the league. Randy also had great quarterbacks throwing to him but his attitude got in the way. Sorry but its really an insult to Jerry Rice to compare Randy to him. >>
First, Rice's work ethic has no bearing on this conversation, but suggesting that he was any more dedicated to his craft than a vast majority of pro players is as disingenuous as it gets. It's the same tired argument the talking heads have trotted out in trying to prop up Tebow. EVERY pro is prepared, EVERY pro works hard. So what if Moss talked? His game backed up his talk. Secondly, Moss had great quarterbacks throwing to him? Other than Brady (and we saw how amazing his time in NE was), what hall of fame QBs were throwing to Moss? Rice had 13 years of Hall of Fame QBs throwing to him, and three more with All Pro Jeff Garcia. That's 16 years for him to accumulate numbers.
The people suggesting that there's no comparison are people who dislike brash players - period. The numbers (and the objective eye test) will tell any real sports fan they were actually very close. >>
Would Jerry Rice give a half-a$$ed effort in a Super Bowl game...see interception to Reed last night.
I was a Moss fan when he first came to Minnesota. His first few years he was awesome. After that he just became a selfish player. How many other players have had the head coach come right out and say "he loses interest if we don't get him involved in the game early"? The RANDY RATIO!
Give me a break.
Joe
<< <i>Moss Maybe in top 10. But when was that? When he played for my raiders he was at the top of the list.
The waiting list to see Mr freud >>
When Moss was on the Raiders, he was the best player on the team
Rice is clearly the best receiver ever. The real question and much more interesting comparison is second best: Moss or Hutson
<< <i>
<< <i>Moss Maybe in top 10. But when was that? When he played for my raiders he was at the top of the list.
The waiting list to see Mr freud >>
When Moss was on the Raiders, he was the best player on the team
Rice is clearly the best receiver ever. The real question and much more interesting comparison is second best: Moss or Hutson >>
Hutson was the greatest of his Era.
Not the second best in history, I mean lets not get crazy here we already have heard some assinine comments.
during the drive SF scored their first TD. If SF had punted there, I doubt they'd have ever even made a game of it.
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I see so many people saying if he played with so and so at quarterback he would have been better. How do you know that? In 1998 Randall Cuningham was the highest rated QB in football, In 2000 Duante Culpepper was rated #4, in 2001 Culpepper was 3rd in completion percentage, in 2003 Culpepper was #3 in passer rating and in 2004 Culpepper was #2. Looks like the quarterbacks weren't that bad, also from 1990 until 2001 Chris Carter was the "other" wide out, he might have been a little help as well.
I will admit Moss had two great years in a row where he was the second best WR; 2002 where Marvin Harrison was better and 2003 where Moss was almost as good as Torry Holt.
My point will continue to be Randy was never the player who was able or willing to lead his team, especially in big games in the 2nd half. The truely great ones did.
I for one would like to have seen Randy Moss play for Bud Grant! Bud would not have put up with "Randy being Randy". You might have seen Randy become the best ever!
Joe
Personally I think Sterling Sharpe was one of the best and not many people will agree with me and it makes no difference whatsoever.
I was watching some old (i.e. 90's) Packers highlights the other day. No one could cover him. For most of his career they really didnt have anyone else on the other side. The rolled a S over the top all the time and he still beat it. They put him in motion on the goal line and everyone in the stands knew what was coming and he would score. Could make guys miss, drag people along and go deep. Too bad he had the neck injury. Even with that I think he should get some stronger consideration for the HOF. When he was playing he was only second fiddle in the league to one on other WR, and that was Jerry Rice in his prime.
Not many of the WRs that are looking at going in now can even say that.
As for Moss and the HOF. Yes he will get in, but with the way he played or didnt at times in games I woudnt mind seeing the voters pass him over on the first ballot. Who knows they might.
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<< <i>The people suggesting that Randy isn't in the conversation for best ever seem to take personally his apparent lack of effort, or didn't like his personality. The numbers don't lie - he's clearly in the conversation of the best of all time. >>
Yeah, he never had alligator arms, always gave full effort on plays, never gave up on his teammates, and when he got released from teams, it was *clearly* the GMs' fault.
Randy Moss always has been and always will be the best, of the best, of the best. Period.
<< <i>Great players in all sports make the players around them better. >>
Based on the 1998 Vikings and 2007 Patriots, Moss definitely qualifies
<< <i>
<< <i>Great players in all sports make the players around them better. >>
Based on the 1998 Vikings and 2007 Patriots, Moss definitely qualifies >>
Absolutely correct! When Randy was surrounded by great players his performance was much better. When he was asked to lead teams that weren't loaded he sucked.
<< <i>When he was asked to lead teams that weren't loaded he sucked. >>
But his play was nothing short of absolutely spectacular while leading the Raiders and Titans.
Oh, wait...
<< <i>Don't forget his spectacular second stint with the Vikings! >>
Get your 84 jerseys out, LMAO
<< <i>Don't forget his spectacular second stint with the Vikings! >>
Oh yeah. Guess I forgot since he was released a month later.
<< <i>Absolutely correct! When Randy was surrounded by great players his performance was much better. When he was asked to lead teams that weren't loaded he sucked. >>
And when other great players were surrounded by Moss, their performance was much better. Very few receivers in history we can say that about
<< <i>
<< <i>Absolutely correct! When Randy was surrounded by great players his performance was much better. When he was asked to lead teams that weren't loaded he sucked. >>
And when other great players were surrounded by Moss, their performance was much better. Very few receivers in history we can say that about >>
So the chicken definitely came first?
<< <i>
<< <i>And when other great players were surrounded by Moss, their performance was much better. Very few receivers in history we can say that about >>
If this were true Moss would have at least two, if not three Super Bowl victories. The fact is Randy Moss is a LOSER! A loser with an incredible amount of physical talent and a resume that includes a lot of yards and touchdowns, but a loser none the less.
"Winners never quit, quitters never win"
Randy Moss = loser.
Joe