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Why did the Cardinal 1793 Wreath Cent PCGS-69 not sell for >$1m?
STONE
Posts: 15,275 ✭
When I viewed this coin at the FUN show it was easily the nicest Large Cent I have ever seen, and I truly felt the MS-69 grade was befitting of the coin...regardless of whether it might
grade today as a 68 or 67, etc. It was truly magnificent.
While not a copper guy, and not knowing the pedigree of this particular piece, I easily thought it would achieve $1m+ price, but instead it barely got more than half that amount...a bargain
to the winner IMO.
Or am I wrong in thinking the price realized was a bargain?
Why did this coin not sell for at least $1 million?
grade today as a 68 or 67, etc. It was truly magnificent.
While not a copper guy, and not knowing the pedigree of this particular piece, I easily thought it would achieve $1m+ price, but instead it barely got more than half that amount...a bargain
to the winner IMO.
Or am I wrong in thinking the price realized was a bargain?
Why did this coin not sell for at least $1 million?
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PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>I could be wrong but when I saw the coin in Baltimore it appeared to have turned a little bit in the holder. Even if it isn't bad it looked like it needed to come out of its classic holder which Could cause some one to fall out of love. That said I don't think it is a 69 anymore. >>
If it has turned at all then I think it would make more sense to leave it in the OGH.
The coin looks the same as when it was graded in 1990. It is at best a 66. When one learns the nuances of grading early copper and what the collectors did in the early days to conserve it then one can understand the price of a coin whether it is too little or too much according to the PCGS number on the insert.
Another question you might ask yourself is why an 1852 graded ms 65 red brought more than $ 32,000 ?
Stewart
<< <i>if ESM and High Desert didn't feel the need to upgrade, then two of the biggest players in registry copper were not in the game to run up the price. >>
See Stewart's post above. I'm pretty sure these guys didn't think it was better than what they had regardless of the number on the holder.
Coin Rarities Online
This morning I looked again at the catalog for the recent sale. On page 8 it mentions a mail bid sale conducted by George Cogan in 1858. It was actually conducted by Edward Cogan, father of George. It was not a mail bid sale as no catalog was produced at the time. I guess people could mail in bids, but the coins could only be viewed at the store. The catalogs that exist for the sale were produced years afterward.
You don't want to look at BHNC CC listings for bust halves either.
MS65's. I guess it's ok to call the best coin a 69 but what really matters is how far it is above the next 5. It just may be that sanity is returning to the very high end of the coin
market such that the actual grade of the coin is more important than the assigned grade (ie a 69 isn't necessarily worth 2X a 68, and a 68 worth 2X a 67).
A brown copper coin the size of a quarter just isn't as romantic imo as a 1794 silver dollar. Sorry EACers. But I'm sure that blazing red 1852 large cent was very impressive.
A brown copper coin the size of a quarter just isn't as romantic imo as a 1794 silver dollar. Sorry EACers. But I'm sure that blazing red 1852 large cent was very impressive.
If the Wreath Cent looked like the the 1852, it would be more impressive than the 1794 Dollar, and maybe just as valuable.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>A brown copper coin the size of a quarter just isn't as romantic imo as a 1794 silver dollar. Sorry EACers. But I'm sure that blazing red 1852 large cent was very impressive.
If the Wreath Cent looked like the the 1852, it would be more impressive than the 1794 Dollar, and maybe just as valuable. >>
Multi millions, yes. Ten million? I just don't see copper commanding that much. How much is 'The Coin' worth right now? $5M?
Tradedollarnut - one day you may understand copper the way I do and and pay more for a copper coin than a silver coin.
If the 1943 D copper that Laura bought was as red as the 1852 then I would have owned it instead of Mr. Simpson. And Mr. Simpson would have to pay me in excess of $ 10,000,000 to pry it from me.
To quote David Akers " Red Copper is more valuable than gold"
The $ 5,000,000 coin you refer to as "the Coin " is the ms 67 BN chain cent. The other Wreath Cent which is the finest wreath cent of all the Naftzger coins is the A water SP 68 red which In my humble opinion is just as valuable as the 1794 dollar.
Stewart Blay
<< <i>Tradedollarnut - one day you may understand copper the way I do and and pay more for a copper coin than a silver coin.
If the 1943 D copper that Laura bought was as red as the 1852 then I would have owned it instead of Mr. Simpson. And Mr. Simpson would have to pay me in excess of $ 10,000,000 to pry it from me.
To quote David Akers " Red Copper is more valuable than gold"
The $ 5,000,000 coin you refer to as "the Coin " is the ms 67 BN chain cent. The other Wreath Cent which is the finest wreath cent of all the Naftzger coins is the A water SP 68 red which In my humble opinion is just as valuable as the 1794 dollar.
Stewart Blay >>
I know what The Coin is and where it is. I guesstimate $5M value on it. The Atwater coin is spectacular as well - I doubt it's worth as much as the dollar tho. Whether or not you could outbid Bob Simpson is a different matter - I know that I can't!
<< <i>
<< <i>Tradedollarnut - one day you may understand copper the way I do and and pay more for a copper coin than a silver coin.
If the 1943 D copper that Laura bought was as red as the 1852 then I would have owned it instead of Mr. Simpson. And Mr. Simpson would have to pay me in excess of $ 10,000,000 to pry it from me.
To quote David Akers " Red Copper is more valuable than gold"
The $ 5,000,000 coin you refer to as "the Coin " is the ms 67 BN chain cent. The other Wreath Cent which is the finest wreath cent of all the Naftzger coins is the A water SP 68 red which In my humble opinion is just as valuable as the 1794 dollar.
Stewart Blay >>
I know what The Coin is and where it is. I guesstimate $5M value on it. The Atwater coin is spectacular as well - I doubt it's worth as much as the dollar tho. Whether or not you could outbid Bob Simpson is a different matter - I know that I can't! >>
Well isn't 5-6 million what people estimated the 1794 dollar at before the auction. At this point all we know is that coin is worth at least 6.5 million (5.25 mil + juice) the only real known underbid.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Tradedollarnut - one day you may understand copper the way I do and and pay more for a copper coin than a silver coin.
If the 1943 D copper that Laura bought was as red as the 1852 then I would have owned it instead of Mr. Simpson. And Mr. Simpson would have to pay me in excess of $ 10,000,000 to pry it from me.
To quote David Akers " Red Copper is more valuable than gold"
The $ 5,000,000 coin you refer to as "the Coin " is the ms 67 BN chain cent. The other Wreath Cent which is the finest wreath cent of all the Naftzger coins is the A water SP 68 red which In my humble opinion is just as valuable as the 1794 dollar.
Stewart Blay >>
I know what The Coin is and where it is. I guesstimate $5M value on it. The Atwater coin is spectacular as well - I doubt it's worth as much as the dollar tho. Whether or not you could outbid Bob Simpson is a different matter - I know that I can't! >>
Well isn't 5-6 million what people estimated the 1794 dollar at before the auction. At this point all we know is that coin is worth at least 6.5 million (5.25 mil + juice) the only real known underbid. >>
Oh smack!
<< <i>Tradedollarnut - one day you may understand copper the way I do and and pay more for a copper coin than a silver coin.
If the 1943 D copper that Laura bought was as red as the 1852 then I would have owned it instead of Mr. Simpson. And Mr. Simpson would have to pay me in excess of $ 10,000,000 to pry it from me.
To quote David Akers " Red Copper is more valuable than gold"
The $ 5,000,000 coin you refer to as "the Coin " is the ms 67 BN chain cent. The other Wreath Cent which is the finest wreath cent of all the Naftzger coins is the A water SP 68 red which In my humble opinion is just as valuable as the 1794 dollar.
Stewart Blay >>
I had the rare opportunity to put a loupe to that Atwater 68™ Wreath at the EAC in 1999, and is beyond nonpareil
It's just not... pretty.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>Just because the almighty Coin Forum doesn't know what the underbidders were going to bid doesn't change what a coin is worth. >>
Tough crowd!!
I have seen quite a few posts across multiple threads from naysayers questioning the price, and the merits of the strategy to jump the bid. Going into the sale, I had strong confidence on how the coin would do. Just read my quotes from interviews weeks and months before the sale, as well post-sale. The ONLY reason the coin was put up for auction was that there were multiple parties interested the coin at REAL numbers, and I figured they should fight it out amongst themselves. While it could not be seen on the limited video feed from the auction, there were 4 other bidders in the room (beyond Legend) that were poised to bid, and I am personnally aware of at least 3 of them that were at $8 million and up (all-in) for their bidding. Prior to the sale, one of those bidders even discussed with me his thoughts of jumping the bid to startle, and hopefully, shut down the competition. (He had been planning on his top bid at $8M to $8.5M hammer!) As you might expect, I was keenly interested in tracking the bid and the bidders live from the auction floor. Following the $5.5M bid, each of Legend's 4 competitors were waiting, anticipating the final call for a bid and waiting to the last second before raising their bidder's card, as that was clearly their strategy at that point. (Why else would Heritage CEO Greg Rohan be on the auction floor himself, with bidder card in hand, and still on the phone with a bidder beyond the $5.5M level, if he wasn't planning on bidding higher himself?) That last-second bidding strategy is supposed to lull the competition into thinking they had the coin cheap, and then disappoint them and catch them off-guard when pushed to higher levels, so that they are second-guessing their bids. As it turned out, that last-second bidding method froze a floor bidder and enabled a telephone bidder to get a bargain on the 1792 half disme, just one lot before the 1794 dollar. (After the sale, that floor bidder regretted not bidding higher, and he admitted to me that when the bid had hung still for so long, he second-guessed his original limit. He later contacted the winning bidder to offer a higher price, but that was turned down.)
Clearly, Legend's shock and awe strategy of jumping the bid early proved to be the winning strategy. To that point, let me relay a live example where choosing not to jump a bid ended up in an ultimate unwinnable bidding war. Several years ago, I attended a live auction to bid on a particularly rare cent. I figured the coin at $150K all-in, and was prepared to bid that high. My strategy was to let the other bidders fight it out, and then I would come in at the end with the (hopefully) last and successful bid. The coin opened at $40K with no immediate bidders. I was stunned. The auctioneer repeated the bid, then started closing the lot -- $40K going once, $40K going twice, the coin is already sold to the book and I need a bid of $40K to top it, last call at $40K. Well, I thought I would get it cheap and then raised my card at $40K. Suddenly the bidding started and went up increment by increment, passing $50K, $75K, $100K, $125K. It seemed that the back and forth bidding reassured each bidder of the coin's value, and the bidding continued. I was expecting to go up to $150K all in, but the coin soon reached $150K hammer, and kept on going. Ultimately, the coin sold for $180K hammer, and NOT to me. When I spoke to the other bidders after the sale, they all commented that the price support of all of the underbidding gave them the comfort to keep bidding higher, beyond their original limit. However, if I had answered the opening bid with a jumped bid of $125K, with no underbidders directly below me, I'm sure I would have dissuaded the competition and taken home the prize at a more favorable price.
Again, heartly congratulations to TDN and Legend on acquiring a truly historic National Treasure!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Tradedollarnut - one day you may understand copper the way I do and and pay more for a copper coin than a silver coin.
If the 1943 D copper that Laura bought was as red as the 1852 then I would have owned it instead of Mr. Simpson. And Mr. Simpson would have to pay me in excess of $ 10,000,000 to pry it from me.
To quote David Akers " Red Copper is more valuable than gold"
The $ 5,000,000 coin you refer to as "the Coin " is the ms 67 BN chain cent. The other Wreath Cent which is the finest wreath cent of all the Naftzger coins is the A water SP 68 red which In my humble opinion is just as valuable as the 1794 dollar.
Stewart Blay >>
I know what The Coin is and where it is. I guesstimate $5M value on it. The Atwater coin is spectacular as well - I doubt it's worth as much as the dollar tho. Whether or not you could outbid Bob Simpson is a different matter - I know that I can't! >>
Well isn't 5-6 million what people estimated the 1794 dollar at before the auction. At this point all we know is that coin is worth at least 6.5 million (5.25 mil + juice) the only real known underbid. >>
Well it's actually worth over $10m as that's what somebody paid for it. Anything is worth what the highest bidder will pay. True it won't always reach their limit, but it has that much value to the buyer.
---
In regards to people saying the Wreath cent is a 66 at best, go find some 66's and compare them for yourself. I've done it in hand and it's a mile apart, the surfaces are pristine.
---
In regards to people saying that early coins were at best 65's coming off the mint...what are you smoking? We define a 70 as perfect, no traces of wear or imperfections. Sure many coins have imperfections right off the bat, but if a coin is struck with a poor quality die, what's to hold it back from being a 69? If PCGS were to holder it literally as it was struck, there are no traces of wear, as it's never even been handled, just manufactured straight into a holder.
<< <i>There just aren't any early coins that are 69, and probably not even 68 or 67 regardless of current labels. If when hot off the press the coins were probably not much better than
MS65's. I guess it's ok to call the best coin a 69 but what really matters is how far it is above the next 5. It just may be that sanity is returning to the very high end of the coin
market such that the actual grade of the coin is more important than the assigned grade (ie a 69 isn't necessarily worth 2X a 68, and a 68 worth 2X a 67).
A brown copper coin the size of a quarter just isn't as romantic imo as a 1794 silver dollar. Sorry EACers. But I'm sure that blazing red 1852 large cent was very impressive. >>
When Jay Parrino would bring his early dates to Long Beach, I got to see his SP68 RED Wreath. This coin, ex: Naftzger, is as far as I know, the finest wreath cent known. It deserves at least an MS67 grade by EAC standards.
Obtained in 1793 from an old Philadelphia family - sold to S.K. Harzfeld in 1879 - S.H. & H. Chapman - Ed Frossard - sold for $100 to George M. Parsons - Ed Frossard 10/1884:984, $200 - Richard B. Winsor - S.H. & H. Chapman 12/1895:826, $160 - S.H. & H. Chapman - George H. Earle, Jr. - Henry Chapman 6/1912:3357, $220 - Clarence S. Bement - Henry Chapman 5/1916:287, $520 - Henry Chapman - Col. James W. Ellsworth, 3/1923 - Wayte Raymond - William Cutler At-water - B. Max Mehl 6/1946:11, $1,050 - R.E. Naftzger, 2/1992 - Eric Streiner - Jay Parrino (The Mint).
<< <i>
<< <i>Just because the almighty Coin Forum doesn't know what the underbidders were going to bid doesn't change what a coin is worth. >>
Tough crowd!!
I have seen quite a few posts across multiple threads from naysayers questioning the price, and the merits of the strategy to jump the bid. Going into the sale, I had strong confidence on how the coin would do. Just read my quotes from interviews weeks and months before the sale, as well post-sale. The ONLY reason the coin was put up for auction was that there were multiple parties interested the coin at REAL numbers, and I figured they should fight it out amongst themselves. While it could not be seen on the limited video feed from the auction, there were 4 other bidders in the room (beyond Legend) that were poised to bid, and I am personnally aware of at least 3 of them that were at $8 million and up (all-in) for their bidding. Prior to the sale, one of those bidders even discussed with me his thoughts of jumping the bid to startle, and hopefully, shut down the competition. (He had been planning on his top bid at $8M to $8.5M hammer!) As you might expect, I was keenly interested in tracking the bid and the bidders live from the auction floor. Following the $5.5M bid, each of Legend's 4 competitors were waiting, anticipating the final call for a bid and waiting to the last second before raising their bidder's card, as that was clearly their strategy at that point. (Why else would Heritage CEO Greg Rohan be on the auction floor himself, with bidder card in hand, and still on the phone with a bidder beyond the $5.5M level, if he wasn't planning on bidding higher himself?) That last-second bidding strategy is supposed to lull the competition into thinking they had the coin cheap, and then disappoint them and catch them off-guard when pushed to higher levels, so that they are second-guessing their bids. As it turned out, that last-second bidding method froze a floor bidder and enabled a telephone bidder to get a bargain on the 1792 half disme, just one lot before the 1794 dollar. (After the sale, that floor bidder regretted not bidding higher, and he admitted to me that when the bid had hung still for so long, he second-guessed his original limit. He later contacted the winning bidder to offer a higher price, but that was turned down.)
Clearly, Legend's shock and awe strategy of jumping the bid early proved to be the winning strategy. To that point, let me relay a live example where choosing not to jump a bid ended up in an ultimate unwinnable bidding war. Several years ago, I attended a live auction to bid on a particularly rare cent. I figured the coin at $150K all-in, and was prepared to bid that high. My strategy was to let the other bidders fight it out, and then I would come in at the end with the (hopefully) last and successful bid. The coin opened at $40K with no immediate bidders. I was stunned. The auctioneer repeated the bid, then started closing the lot -- $40K going once, $40K going twice, the coin is already sold to the book and I need a bid of $40K to top it, last call at $40K. Well, I thought I would get it cheap and then raised my card at $40K. Suddenly the bidding started and went up increment by increment, passing $50K, $75K, $100K, $125K. It seemed that the back and forth bidding reassured each bidder of the coin's value, and the bidding continued. I was expecting to go up to $150K all in, but the coin soon reached $150K hammer, and kept on going. Ultimately, the coin sold for $180K hammer, and NOT to me. When I spoke to the other bidders after the sale, they all commented that the price support of all of the underbidding gave them the comfort to keep bidding higher, beyond their original limit. However, if I had answered the opening bid with a jumped bid of $125K, with no underbidders directly below me, I'm sure I would have dissuaded the competition and taken home the prize at a more favorable price.
Again, heartly congratulations to TDN and Legend on acquiring a truly historic National Treasure!
When the only other bidder in the video clearly Cut his bid was he not done?
After the fact it is always easier to arm chair quarterback. It is a cool coin with a big price tag.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>Just because the almighty Coin Forum doesn't know what the underbidders were going to bid doesn't change what a coin is worth. >>
Tough crowd!!
I have seen quite a few posts across multiple threads from naysayers questioning the price, and the merits of the strategy to jump the bid. Going into the sale, I had strong confidence on how the coin would do. Just read my quotes from interviews weeks and months before the sale, as well post-sale. The ONLY reason the coin was put up for auction was that there were multiple parties interested the coin at REAL numbers, and I figured they should fight it out amongst themselves. While it could not be seen on the limited video feed from the auction, there were 4 other bidders in the room (beyond Legend) that were poised to bid, and I am personnally aware of at least 3 of them that were at $8 million and up (all-in) for their bidding. Prior to the sale, one of those bidders even discussed with me his thoughts of jumping the bid to startle, and hopefully, shut down the competition. (He had been planning on his top bid at $8M to $8.5M hammer!) As you might expect, I was keenly interested in tracking the bid and the bidders live from the auction floor. Following the $5.5M bid, each of Legend's 4 competitors were waiting, anticipating the final call for a bid and waiting to the last second before raising their bidder's card, as that was clearly their strategy at that point. (Why else would Heritage CEO Greg Rohan be on the auction floor himself, with bidder card in hand, and still on the phone with a bidder beyond the $5.5M level, if he wasn't planning on bidding higher himself?) That last-second bidding strategy is supposed to lull the competition into thinking they had the coin cheap, and then disappoint them and catch them off-guard when pushed to higher levels, so that they are second-guessing their bids. As it turned out, that last-second bidding method froze a floor bidder and enabled a telephone bidder to get a bargain on the 1792 half disme, just one lot before the 1794 dollar. (After the sale, that floor bidder regretted not bidding higher, and he admitted to me that when the bid had hung still for so long, he second-guessed his original limit. He later contacted the winning bidder to offer a higher price, but that was turned down.)
Clearly, Legend's shock and awe strategy of jumping the bid early proved to be the winning strategy. To that point, let me relay a live example where choosing not to jump a bid ended up in an ultimate unwinnable bidding war. Several years ago, I attended a live auction to bid on a particularly rare cent. I figured the coin at $150K all-in, and was prepared to bid that high. My strategy was to let the other bidders fight it out, and then I would come in at the end with the (hopefully) last and successful bid. The coin opened at $40K with no immediate bidders. I was stunned. The auctioneer repeated the bid, then started closing the lot -- $40K going once, $40K going twice, the coin is already sold to the book and I need a bid of $40K to top it, last call at $40K. Well, I thought I would get it cheap and then raised my card at $40K. Suddenly the bidding started and went up increment by increment, passing $50K, $75K, $100K, $125K. It seemed that the back and forth bidding reassured each bidder of the coin's value, and the bidding continued. I was expecting to go up to $150K all in, but the coin soon reached $150K hammer, and kept on going. Ultimately, the coin sold for $180K hammer, and NOT to me. When I spoke to the other bidders after the sale, they all commented that the price support of all of the underbidding gave them the comfort to keep bidding higher, beyond their original limit. However, if I had answered the opening bid with a jumped bid of $125K, with no underbidders directly below me, I'm sure I would have dissuaded the competition and taken home the prize at a more favorable price.
Again, heartly congratulations to TDN and Legend on acquiring a truly historic National Treasure!
Thanks for this insight....It definitely gives another perspective to the auction room and thoughts surrounding the sale. The story about the cent that got away is also a great source of valuable information for people who bid at auction. Congrats on your successful sale!
<< <i>tough crowd >>
not tough.
just people are second guessing an auction full of people like arm chair quarterbacks.
I say again that hindsight is not 20/20 here as you have to get inside of everyone's head and guess what they would do under different circumstances.
good luck with that.
<< <i>No, a cut bid is not done. Just means you can't cut anymore. >>
Thank you for clearing that up, i had bid on a Heritage internet auction and i did cut my bid and thought i was going to win the item, but then it took off again. I tried to re bid but it did not go thru. I did not think my cut bid had finished me off, it was probably my internet connection with the wife feature that did me in.
I was amazed at how fast the internet bids are accepted, you would almost think they have a shock device attached to the auctioneer.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I was interested in a Classic Large Cent & spoke with Stack's about bidding on it. Stacks now allows someone to do a cut bid, and if bidding on the lot is higher, said bidder can jump back in, but only at full bidding increments. This is a relatively new policy for them.
Heritage, OTOH, has retained its policy re once you do a cut bid, you can no longer bid on the particular lot.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>
Another question you might ask yourself is why an 1852 graded ms 65 red brought more than $ 32,000 ?
Stewart >>
1) Stewart - I raised this question on another thread. 1850-1856 MS 65 RD coppers are readily available and haven't gone anywhere price wise in years. You can get a nice one for $5,000, for less if you're patient. I didn't see the Nafziger coin, but I can't imagine it's worth 6 X what a nice 5 would otherwise bring.
2) Bruce - As Stewart pointed out, copper is unique, has its own issues, and imo, expensive copper really can't be compared with coins minted with other metals. Grading early copper also has more 'issues' than grading coins of the same era struck from different metals. When it comes to expensive copper, I believe that the wisest thing to do is to have an early copper specialist do the buying and selling of these items for any collector. I can tell you stories..........................................
3) An MS 69 Chain Cent? I have not seen the coin. But in my 40 plus years of collecting, I have yet to see any 100 plus year old coin in higher than an MS / PF 67 that I didn't think was overgraded (and yes, I did see the NGC PF 1911 Liberty Nickel, and no, I don't collect Morgan $s).
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Would have been really amazing to see all of them together like in that picture!!!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Re cut bids.
I was interested in a Classic Large Cent & spoke with Stack's about bidding on it. Stacks now allows someone to do a cut bid, and if bidding on the lot is higher, said bidder can jump back in, but only at full bidding increments. This is a relatively new policy for them.
Heritage, OTOH, has retained its policy re once you do a cut bid, you can no longer bid on the particular lot. >>
I think you're wrong about HA.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>
<< <i>Re cut bids.
I was interested in a Classic Large Cent & spoke with Stack's about bidding on it. Stacks now allows someone to do a cut bid, and if bidding on the lot is higher, said bidder can jump back in, but only at full bidding increments. This is a relatively new policy for them.
Heritage, OTOH, has retained its policy re once you do a cut bid, you can no longer bid on the particular lot. >>
I think you're wrong about HA. >>
That's what they recently told me when I asked them about it. OTOH, they may have responded to the change in Stacks policy on this recently and I am not aware of it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Re cut bids.
I was interested in a Classic Large Cent & spoke with Stack's about bidding on it. Stacks now allows someone to do a cut bid, and if bidding on the lot is higher, said bidder can jump back in, but only at full bidding increments. This is a relatively new policy for them.
Heritage, OTOH, has retained its policy re once you do a cut bid, you can no longer bid on the particular lot. >>
I think you're wrong about HA. >>
That's what they recently told me when I asked them about it. OTOH, they may have responded to the change in Stacks policy on this recently and I am not aware of it. >>
I believe Heritage instituted this policy before S-B did.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Re cut bids.
I was interested in a Classic Large Cent & spoke with Stack's about bidding on it. Stacks now allows someone to do a cut bid, and if bidding on the lot is higher, said bidder can jump back in, but only at full bidding increments. This is a relatively new policy for them.
Heritage, OTOH, has retained its policy re once you do a cut bid, you can no longer bid on the particular lot. >>
I think you're wrong about HA. >>
That's what they recently told me when I asked them about it. OTOH, they may have responded to the change in Stacks policy on this recently and I am not aware of it. >>
I believe Heritage instituted this policy before S-B did. >>
You are right John.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Re cut bids.
I was interested in a Classic Large Cent & spoke with Stack's about bidding on it. Stacks now allows someone to do a cut bid, and if bidding on the lot is higher, said bidder can jump back in, but only at full bidding increments. This is a relatively new policy for them.
Heritage, OTOH, has retained its policy re once you do a cut bid, you can no longer bid on the particular lot. >>
I think you're wrong about HA. >>
That's what they recently told me when I asked them about it. OTOH, they may have responded to the change in Stacks policy on this recently and I am not aware of it. >>
I believe Heritage instituted this policy before S-B did. >>
I was internet bidding on the Dec 9th Arms and Armour auction and when i cut the bid i was not able to bid again on that lot.
I do believe i have been to critical of the bidding on the10 million dollar coin. There is nothing wrong to go balls out on something you really want. Laura has been to enough auctions to clearly know what she is doing. Congrats!!
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
"Oh the games people play now
Every night and every day now
Never meaning what they say now
Never saying what they mean..."
<< <i>I am reminded of an old song:
"Oh the games people play now
Every night and every day now
Never meaning what they say now
Never saying what they mean..." >>
<< <i>Can you imagine a better forum than this?? Having the chance to "hear" the consignor and buyer of a $10 mil coin give us their insights?? Pretty dang cool!
I agree!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Can you imagine a better forum than this?? Having the chance to "hear" the consignor and buyer of a $10 mil coin give us their insights?? Pretty dang cool!
This excellent observation sometimes gets lost in all the noise.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>The coin looks the same as when it was graded in 1990. It is at best a 66. ... Stewart >>
I have never failed to be disappointed seeing that coin in that holder. And the coin itself is quite likable.
I know it's apples and oranges, but for sheer overwhelming POW factor the 1796 (65RB,CAC) ate this coin's lunch.
If any EAC'er thought the piece was a true 67BN (a contradiction in and of itself when considering color vs. technical per EAC standards) it would have sold for more. A Wreath EAC AU55+ slabbed as 64BN sold later that night for $130K + juice. Very pleasing coin that might have brought 75K raw.
Stewart and I agree so infrequently I thought I'd make note. What with his ego being so fragile and all
<< <i>Just because the almighty Coin Forum doesn't know what the underbidders were going to bid doesn't change what a coin is worth. >>
Then why do you participate in discussions of that here? And why are you trying so hard to convince us if you're so sure yourself. I remember a lot of these coins when they were 5c on the dollar. I was in the room. My friends and I bought them. We priced "8th finest knowns" as well as the best. They were and are part of the market in which I don't hear you participating. It's sometimes about nuance, not brute force.
You paid for the 1794 S$1; its value is established. Knowing some of the players (or their agents) quite well, I have no doubt "shock and awe" was the right tactic. Used it myself.
You've had tremendous success buying and selling. However, it's yet to be demonstrated that your pricing algorithms factor in EAC madness
Nor rare gold. Or Morgans. Or Saints. Or.....
All of us are, at best, multi-talented idiot-savants.
<< <i> .. if a coin is struck with a poor quality die, what's to hold it back from being a 69? If PCGS were to holder it literally as it was struck, there are no traces of wear, as it's never even been handled, just manufactured straight into a holder. >>
Because of
1) less than perfect strike pressure
2) less than maximal die preparation.
3) poor planchet.
4) Lack of eye-appeal
And it's not "as struck" color either.
StewartBlay : << The coin looks the same as when it was graded in 1990. It is at best a 66. When one learns the nuances of grading early copper and what the collectors did in the early days to conserve it then one can understand the price of a coin whether it is too little or too much according to the PCGS (grade) on the insert.>>
The coin was PCGS graded in 1992, not 1990. It may have then looked a little better. In any event, I discuss this coin in my current auction review. Blay is quoted therein. I interviewed Stewart as the auction was drawing to a close.
Cardinal Collection Results, Part 1: 1792 to 1794
<< <i>StewartBlay : << The coin looks the same as when it was graded in 1990. It is at best a 66. When one learns the nuances of grading early copper and what the collectors did in the early days to conserve it then one can understand the price of a coin whether it is too little or too much according to the PCGS (grade) on the insert.>>
The coin was PCGS graded in 1992, not 1990. It may have then looked a little better. In any event, I discuss this coin in my current auction review. Blay is quoted therein. I interviewed Stewart as the auction was drawing to a close.
Cardinal Collection Results, Part 1: 1792 to 1794 >>
Enjoyed reading that article, thanks for sharing... lots of great info!!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448