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Who was Lord St. Oswald?
EagleEye
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Alan Weinberg's Chain Cent collection stated that the Chain Cent was retrieved from circulation in 1795 by Rowland Winn, Lord St. Oswald.
According to Wikipedia The title Baron (same as Lord?) St. Oswald was created in 1820. The recent Goldberg's auction catalog has a 1794 S57 MS65BN that was also from the famed source.
They give the pedigree beginning in 1964 with Major Sir Rowland Denys Winn, M.C. 4th Baron St. Oswald. Again according to wikipedia The 4th St. Oswald was alive in 1964, supposedly the consignor. The coin was likely retrieved by someone in his family in 1795, but who?
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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You'd probably have to check the "Stud Book" (Debrett's Peerage) to verify that.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
It’s believed that the Mint struck a total of 2,000 silver dollars in 1794, all from a single pair of dies. Evidently, some were rejected as being excessively weak and may have ended up being used as coin blanks the following year or simply being melted. The accepted net mintage is 1,758, with estimates of about 120-130 survivors in all grades. The entire production occurred on a single day, October 15, and Voight stored many of the coins in the Mint’s vaults, giving them to Rittenhouse the following May. The Director presented a few of the dollars to VIPs as souvenirs and also made a point of spending some (or exchanging them for Spanish dollars) in order to get the coins before the public. Rittenhouse never distributed all the coins, however, resigning due to failing health in June of 1795. This set the stage for a very interesting piece of numismatic history,
Almost 170 years later, in 1964, a small box of “strange” coins was consigned to a Christies auction in London by the family of British nobleman Major Sir Roland Denys Guy Winn, M.C., Fourth Baron St. Oswald. The box contained about $10 in face value of new U.S. coins, dated either 1794 or 1795. Most notable of these pieces were two uncirculated 1794 dollars which brought $11,400 each at the sale. When the coins returned to the United States, the excitement generated among American collectors began to take on a life of its own. A story took root that had one of Lord St. Oswald’s ancestors traveling to Philadelphia in 1795 and receiving the coins directly from Henry DeSaussure, Rittenhouse’s successor as Mint Director. While this account makes fascinating reading and has been accepted as fact for over thirty years, recent research has uncovered that it’s based entirely on conjecture. No family records or accounts support the proposition of a trip to the United States by a St. Oswald ancestor; in fact, they tend to refute it. We don’t know for certain how the coins were obtained or by whom—only that they were in the St. Oswald family’s possession in 1964. Perhaps a future numismatic researcher will be able to unravel this mystery.
I belive that it is argued in the paper that JoeCopper cites that there was no such St. Oswald. In my view, the circumstantial evidence indicates that a British citizen visited the Philadelphia Mint in 1795 and brought a substantial group of U.S. coins back to Britain. It seems likely that these remained in one family for far more than a century. As the coins were properly stored and not cleaned, it is very plausible, indeed likely, that they were owned by collectors and/or were part of a family collection. The group was auctioned by Christies in 1964. Unless someone puts forth more concrete information regarding the names of the owners from 1795 to 1964, it makes sense for numismatists to continue to employ the name “St. Oswald” in regard to these coins.
In any event, a terrific St. Oswald 1794 cent was just auctioned as part of the Cardinal Collection, during the same session that featured the Carter 1794 silver dollar. I covered these events.
Cardinal Collection Results, Part 1: 1792 to 1794
Incredible Carter 1794 silver dollar
Correct. The collection included two 1794 dollars, several 1794 half dollars, and about 20 1794 large cents. It was sold at auction by Christie's (London) in 1964. Hodder noted that Major the Lord St. Oswald was not born until 1916. Hodder suggested that some people at the time of the sale (including Breen) presumed that the coins were obtained directly from the U.S. Mint in 1795 due to their very high grades. There have been suggestions that one of Winn's ancestors visited the Mint and obtained the coins. The 6th Baronet was born in 1775 and died in 1805, but was in poor health as a young man and not likely to have journeyed to North America. Charles Winn, another family member, did collect coins (1796-1884) and may have been the person responsible for the collection (but he didn't get them from the Mint). It is unclear how the coins were obtained and made their way to England. According to Hodder, the claims of the pedigree and unbroken chain of custody within the Winn family from 1794-5 until 1964 are not supported by facts. Some searching of the Winn family archives is needed to resolve this.
I hope Karl Moulton will chime in, as he is aware of some other research on this topic.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
If you look at some sale catalogs from the 60's and 70's, prior to 1099's and federal disclosure requirements, there are some very interesting/sketchy provenances.
I think quite a few firms were less than concerned about tax evasion.
The rumors in our area were that several dealers in our area (now all deceased) made their life fortunes from handling such deals and a "Lord St. Muckety Muck" would be a nice cover story. I wonder today if someone came forward with a $2-5MM collection and wanted cash only with no paperwork, if someone would take the risk.
If you look at some sale catalogs from the 60's and 70's, prior to 1099's and federal disclosure requirements, there are some very interesting/sketchy provenances."
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
auction featured a remarkable stash of US coins including (2) 1794 dollars, (3) 1795 dollars, (3) 1795 half dollars, and (22!) 1794 large cents, all essentially in mint state; also some American Colonials, ancient & world coins; incredibly scarce catalog; original prices realized list is included - which includes names of buyers; (4) pages of plates; very fine condition
I've been researching the American coins in the Lord St. Oswald collection for several years, and plan to put out a monograph regarding the unknown background on how these quality American coins were held in England.
Charles Winn was never titled...he became a priest after the death of his older brother. However, he did collect coins and medals and had a chance meeting with a wealthy woman in the early 1800's. That is the key to this story.
Don't believe what is written by non-researching cataloguers (yes, I know that statement is challenging) but if the truth is not presented, then people interested in numismatics should not readily believe what they read in print!
I've spent the past 4 years working on the John J. Ford book...the reseach presented will open many eyes, and will put a large amount of the truth out there for all to see and understand, especially regarding Ford's numismatic activities.
As far as the 1964 St. Oswald collection, let's just say that there was never a visit to the United States, by any member of the Winn family in the 1790's.
Without engaging in additional research, I fairly hypothesized that ... the circumstantial evidence indicates that a British citizen visited the Philadelphia Mint in 1795 and brought a substantial group of U.S. coins back to Britain. It seems likely that these remained in one family for far more than a century. As the coins were properly stored and not cleaned, it is very plausible, indeed likely, that they were owned by collectors and/or were part of a family collection.
I recently wrote about one of the <<Oswald>> 1794 cents that was just auctioned as part of the same consignment that included the $10 million 1794 dollar.
Cardinal Collection Results, Part 1: 1792 to 1794
FirstMint: <<As far as the 1964 St. Oswald collection, let's just say that there was never a visit to the United States, by any member of the Winn family in the 1790s.>>
Has FirstMint accounted for all of the travel logs of all of Charles Winn-s relatives who were alive in the 1790s, even distant relatives?
Supposing, hypothetically, that one British citizen traveled to the U.S. Mint in 1795 and then sold or gave the <<Oswald>>coins to someone else in the early 1800s, it would still make sense to continue to now refer to the coins in question as <<St. Oswald>> coins. Collections often have fictional names, anyhow.
Fictional or <code> names for collections are not a problem as long as the fictional names are used fairly and consistently.
For example, when Heritage auctioned the <<Joseph Thomas Collection>> in April 2009, a partner at Heritage made clear that <<Joseph Thomas>> was not the consignor-s real name. Nevertheless, it was an epic collection. It still makes sense to refer to the coins included as <<Joseph Thomas>> coins.
Extreme Rarities in the Greatest Collection of U.S. Silver Coins to be Auctioned in More Than a Decade
FirstMint: <<Don't believe what is written by non-researching cataloguers ... but if the truth is not presented, then people interested in numismatics should not readily believe what they read in print!>>
It is fair, honest and sufficiently truthful to refer to the 1794-95 coins from that consignment to Christie-s in 1964 as coins pedigreed to <<St. Oswald>>. They were all part of the same spectacular, fresh collection and, before 1964, they are very likely to have been together for many decades. As I just said, it is not unusual for collections to be given names that are not the true last names of the respective consignors or not the true names of relatives of the respective consignors.
Additionally, auction cataloguers often write about a large number of coins in a short amount of time. It is important for readers of auction catalogues to have realistic expectations.
I have researched the Winn (adopted name) family that was alive in the 1790's. As for travel itineraries, Charles older brother traveled extensively before his unexpected death.
As you always say in your posts. "please read what I wrote..." (Well, except I haven't written this yet...).
The original owner did not necessarily travel to the US in the 1790's. I'll explain this when I get around to writing this mongraph. Suffice to say that "someone" (not necessarily a family member or relative) did go to the US at that time.
At the present time, there is no record of the original owner of the coins that were consigned in the 1964 St. Oswald sale by Christies.
I haven't done research on this subject for about 5 years now, and the details are "rusty"...another book project has taken all of my time.
The story is extremely complex, and is not answerable in this venue; so think what you wish, until it can get presented.
It’s fascinating to read this thread from 2013.
It’s now known that original purchaser of these coins was William Strickland, 6th Baron Boynton, esq.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Strickland_(farmer)
This is mention by Stack’s and others.
Thanks for the info and reviving this thread.
BHNC #203
Very interesting... Thanks for reviving this with the new information. I am always amazed at these old, well preserved, coin treasures that survive in collections for hundreds of years. Cheers, RickO
Great read