"Gold is not an investment. It’s a speculation."
BORG
Posts: 76
BORG
Posts: 76
BORG
Posts: 76
Comments
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
And if we solve the "equation" for the other variable:
All gold is a short position on paper dollars.
I can think of no better thing to short over the long term.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>It is money. >>
really? didn't it used to be money? today, nobody gets paid in gold, nor pays for anything with it (novelty barter exeptions that prove the rule aside)
If gold is "money" then by all logic, so is silver, copper, steel, oil, cotton, wheat, corn, pork bellies, milk, and, of course, frozen concentrated orange juice
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>today, nobody gets paid in gold >>
I did just get paid in 2 gold eagles at the end of the year as a "bonus"
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
<< <i>
<< <i>It is money. >>
really? didn't it used to be money? today, nobody gets paid in gold, nor pays for anything with it (novelty barter exeptions that prove the rule aside)
If gold is "money" then by all logic, so is silver, copper, steel, oil, cotton, wheat, corn, pork bellies, milk, and, of course, frozen concentrated orange juice >>
That's so wrong, it's sad.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Perhaps start by explaining why you think gold is "money" and silver is not. And you'll need to go a little beyond your 100 year old Morgan quote
If gold is "money", then also "money" are ...
barley, rice, salt, peppercorns, large stones, decorated belts, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, and candy
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
barley, rice, salt, peppercorns, large stones, decorated belts, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, and candy
I totally agree with that.
Alcohol is also money, as well as bullets.
Eventually in an economy painted in cigs and batteries, a single medium will want to be used by all...
This is golds role,
Just my honest opinion..... don't call me wrong though.....
It's all about what the people want...
<< <i>saying, "you're wrong" has never been a very convincing argument. Maybe you should try SAYING IT LOUDER, or better yet, offer some reasoning.
Perhaps start by explaining why you think gold is "money" and silver is not. And you'll need to go a little beyond your 100 year old Morgan quote
If gold is "money", then also "money" are ...
barley, rice, salt, peppercorns, large stones, decorated belts, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, and candy >>
First of all a few components of true money is 1. able to store and 2. something that is rare (or desirable).
many of yoyur examples fail miserably on one or both accounts.
Gold does not.
But I really don't want to turn this into a 'what is true money' lesson.
Even if I wrote another 10 pages on the subject, you still wouldn't 'buy' it (pardon the pun).
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Gold is internationally $$. You can trade GOLD for $$ in every country WWW
Yes, you can't trade rice in a Japanese rice field and you can't trade salt on any ocean island.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>
<< <i>
Even if I wrote another 10 pages on the subject, you still wouldn't 'buy' it (pardon the pun). >>
Wiki saved you the trouble
or don't you buy any of that, either?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
1) Durable - shouldn't be able to easily be destroyed, ruined, or spoil
2) Portable - should be small enough to allow for easy transportation of a large amount of value
3) Divisible
4) Fungible (consistent) - to be a good medium of exchange, it should also be consistent in value. Things like diamonds and collectibles fail this test, since there are other aspects of them which make them not equal.
5) Has intrinsic value
6) Relative rarity - Fiat currencies are now failing at this
Many things pass most of these aspects, but only a few pass them all.
<< <i>
<< <i>It is money. >>
really? didn't it used to be money? today, nobody gets paid in gold, nor pays for anything with it (novelty barter exeptions that prove the rule aside)
If gold is "money" then by all logic, so is silver, copper, steel, oil, cotton, wheat, corn, pork bellies, milk, and, of course, frozen concentrated orange juice >>
Central Banks frequently pay each other in gold....often to settle debts. Gold is the ultimate extinguisher of debt...always has been.
JPM recently made changes in their company to allow gold payments from customers. They are more than happy to be paid in gold vs. FRN's or a check.
Iran was buying oil with gold for part of 2012.
You can go to any major rare coin show (or collectible show for that matter) and buy something with your gold coins. Try that with a pile of pork bellies or 5 gallons of heating oil.
There are $Cash4Gold stores all over the place. Anyone see $Cashforcrack or $Cashforcorn stores?
I'm sure there dozens or hundreds more examples.
If gold isn't money it sure is interesting how easily it buys stuff and why Central Banks ferociously guard it. Gold and silver are money. Silver falters a bit because it's on the bulky side.
The fact that the majority of the gold ever mined is still around and not used up is a major reason why it is real money. All those other possibilities for money above all fail for various
reasons (bulk, impossible to store, they rot or spoil, etc.).
Money is what we define it to be. Central Banks by their storage of 30,000 tonnes of gold have clearly stated that gold is money to them. Doesn't matter if J6P doesn't think so.
I prefer to go by what CB's think money is.....not what the media or govt talking heads say it is. When Central Banks were selling 500 tonnes of gold per year in the 1990's, gold's
money status was questionable. But now that they've been 400+ tonnes per year, there's no doubt it's money again.
I'll stick with stockpiling gold.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
<< <i>Anybody who thinks gold is not money...... I will give you $5 for a 1 dollar gold piece. PM me. >>
Good one. I'm paying $10 for $1 silver eagles.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Where in the world will the above object function as money? And how much is it "worth"? Apparently, right here on this precious metals forum, it functions as $5
(gosh, i just lost 99% of the value of my "money")
or, how many places in your neighborhood (stores, restaurants, gas stations, etc) will exchange you any goods or services for it?
a coin shop, and pawn shop, a "cash for gold" place, maybe a jewelry store, and the small % of people that are coin collectors.
(and guess what? it fetches different prices at all those places... that's not a very good thing for "money" to do)
in better than 90% of locations, it's not liquid FOR ANY AMOUNT unless I cash it in at one of the spots above first, and exchange it for actual local currency that everybody takes
That ain't "money", it's a commodity. It might be the most liquid commodity, but it does not FUNCTION as money in everyday life
ask yourself the same acceptance question for cash, credit and debit cards. Everybody takes them. THAT is "money"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Any claim that either one can or does function as "money" in any practical sense simply refuses to understand the word as defined by economists and the general public
and any broader definition that counts gold as "store of value" or "financial instrument", must also include platinum, silver, copper, nickel, all the other metals, and all the other commodities, and also include stocks, bonds, and yes even derivatives.
Look, I love gold and have quite a bit of it too, but trying to have it both ways semantically would be self delusional.
the same issue with definitions happens when discussions of SHTF and TEOTWAWKI... there can be no effective communication with those who define those terms by saying, "we're already there"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I knew it would happen.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>gold is money MJ >>
I could care less what "economists" think. They've screwed up the world enough in 100 yrs. I'll put my money on our world traveler, MJ.
That ain't "money", it's a commodity. It might be the most liquid commodity, but it does not FUNCTION as money in everyday life
ask yourself the same acceptance question for cash, credit and debit cards. Everybody takes them. THAT is "money"
This is a US centric point of view. In China and India (and Zimbabwe) you can bet your gold coins (and gold wedding rings) will be welcomed as money by the locals.
US merchants frequently charge an extra 3% for CC use because it ain't money. Gold doesn't give you charge backs or other games. Take those FRN's overseas and
there will be places and times where they will not be accepted. Gold is often preferred, especially in today's world. Cash/fiat represent ownership of a debt/IOU. By that
fact alone they are not really money, just a convenient means to conduct a transaction. True money has to be able to extinguish a debt for good. FRN's have no such capability
as every new FRN and digi-dollar keystroked into existance just increases the debt. When real bills, gold coins, and gold certificates circulated, there at least was a means to
close the debt loop. That was lost entirely in 1971. That was the last time that FRN's were potentially money. Some might go back a step further and say it was 1944 or even 1934.
Sushi is money.
I've been thinking my Box o' $20 all wrong. Maybe I should do a Box o' Sushi. I can't eat gold.
edt4sp
I knew it would happen.
I'll take the sushi money as long as it isn't the kind with the fake crabmeat in it
It is an asset that is universally valued as such, which is what gives it such a special place in economics.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
1: something generally accepted as a medium of exchange, a measure of value, or a means of payment: as a: officially coined or stamped metal currency
b: money of account
c: paper money
2a : wealth reckoned in terms of money
b: an amount of money c plural : sums of money : funds
3: a form or denomination of coin or paper money
4 a: the first, second, and third place winners (as in a horse or dog race) —usually used in the phrases in the money or out of the money
b: prize money <his horse took third money>
5 a: persons or interests possessing or controlling great wealth
b: a position of wealth <born into money>
What about gold not being money is not in the definitions above?
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>Definition of "Money":
1: something generally accepted as a medium of exchange, a measure of value, or a means of payment: as a: officially coined or stamped metal currency
b: money of account
c: paper money
2a : wealth reckoned in terms of money
b: an amount of money c plural : sums of money : funds
3: a form or denomination of coin or paper money
4 a: the first, second, and third place winners (as in a horse or dog race) —usually used in the phrases in the money or out of the money
b: prize money <his horse took third money>
5 a: persons or interests possessing or controlling great wealth
b: a position of wealth <born into money>
What about gold not being money is not in the definitions above? >>
The gold is not money camp would say that that you can not buy a hamburger with gold. In a practical and literal sense they would be correct. Fiat is an easier means of exchange. The gold is money camp would say you could trade gold for some fiat to buy the hamburger and that gold will protect the future purchasing power to buy more of said hamburgers.
Pass the mustard and relish.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
one gold dollar will buy about 81 hamburgers at MCD's at the moment
What a bunch of hooey; still brain-dead among us. Gold is never worth nothing but there are plenty of currency, stock, bonds, paper stuff that are worth nothing...and more to come methinks.
Got GOLD? (or would you rather have GM stock?)
Are modern foreign coins money?
Are pre 65 silver coins still money?
Are pre 33 gold coins still money?
If you have to pay capital gains on it, is it money? If you claim a corresponding loss on it is it money?
Is silver money?
So is bartering, using any third-party 'thing' as the bargining intermediate, is that money?
A pile of modern bills and coins on a table can be called money, on which I think this could be a standard agreement.
For the rest, it seems one can find ample evidence to support either case, with either, both, or multiple cases being simultaneously true.
For the original OP statement:
Thought of my mix of gold as my 'speculative investment hedge'.
OperationButter:
Were you taxed on that bonus, benefits, 401k deductions?
Fiat bills and coins are not an investment or speculative, they are a loss. You may think its static if you glance at it.
If you look very carefully you can see them slowly shrink in the palm of your hand, much as you can see the sun's shadow slowly move.
<< <i>one gold dollar will buy about 81 hamburgers at MCD's at the moment
Hope you are hungry
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>one gold dollar will buy about 81 hamburgers at MCD's at the moment
Good luck in having anyone at MCD exchange it for 81 burgers.
<< <i>I wrote a couple months ago about paying a dinner/bar tab with a single roller Peace dollar, tip included. She was more than happy to take it. >>
She may have been happy, but her boss ain't. Now it's up to him to take the time and find a place where he can redeem your silver for fiat currency so that he can balance his receipts for the night. btw he is not, like most of the country, a silver coin collector.
<< <i>OperationButter:
Were you taxed on that bonus, benefits, 401k deductions? >>
Dont get me in trouble! It wasnt a "bonus" it was a "gift" for Christmas
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
<< <i>
<< <i>one gold dollar will buy about 81 hamburgers at MCD's at the moment
Good luck in having anyone at MCD exchange it for 81 burgers.
I'm absolutely positive that I could call around to my local McD's and find at least one manager willing to work up an 81 burger order for gold.
There's a major coin shop in my area just 1 mile from the local McD's. I think that one would work out quite well. Maybe I'll even have the
local coin shop owner pay that manager a visit.
I'll say this again for the umpteenth time. There are no investments any more. Just various levels of speculation. The FED and big banks have screwed up the
cost of capital so much that no one knows what anything is truly worth. Everyone is speculating as to what X is worth. The waitress that picked up that Peace Dollar
as payment could easily slip her own cash in to pay for it. What, is it so hard to believe that no one carries $35 cash with them any more?
<< <i>What, is it so hard to believe that no one carries $35 cash with them any more? >>
I dont, I use CC for everything.
I have a few $1s in my car if I need toll or parking meter money etc, otherwise its on the CC for the rewards and paid off every month.
To note though, I agree with your comments thus far, just not sure if any McD in my area would have anyone smart enough to accept gold for 81 burgers though haha
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And for credit card types, she could just as easily swipe her own card for the cost of that meal. Let's not make things harder than they need to be.
<< <i>
<< <i>What, is it so hard to believe that no one carries $35 cash with them any more? >>
I dont, I use CC for everything.
I have a few $1s in my car if I need toll or parking meter money etc, otherwise its on the CC for the rewards and paid off every month.
To note though, I agree with your comments thus far, just not sure if any McD in my area would have anyone smart enough to accept gold for 81 burgers though haha >>
What is the reward of having your every purchase tracked? I don't trust a credit card company not to sell every scrap of info it gathers to the highest bidder.
That transaction probably pays for the reward points.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wrote a couple months ago about paying a dinner/bar tab with a single roller Peace dollar, tip included. She was more than happy to take it. >>
She may have been happy, but her boss ain't. Now it's up to him to take the time and find a place where he can redeem your silver for fiat currency so that he can balance his receipts for the night. btw he is not, like most of the country, a silver coin collector.
She swapped tips for it on closeout, Her boss is one of my friends/clients/partners, metal is money in this place...giggidy.
Thanks for making the point so clearly
btw, what's a "single roller peace dollar"?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>In other words, she bought your collectible peace dollar from you with her real money that she earned, and you used that real money to pay your tab. The transactions just occurred in a different order, to simulate the appearance that you actually spent the silver.
Thanks for making the point so clearly
btw, what's a "single roller peace dollar"? >>
I wild west spun it on the counter and asked if we were good, she said yup, that was it to me. I paid in silver, she could have done numerous things with it afterwards in this place alone.
Roller to me is just a stacker, an average melt AU one. Single being 1, was a happy hour tab and generous tip.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>one gold dollar will buy about 81 hamburgers at MCD's at the moment
Good luck in having anyone at MCD exchange it for 81 burgers.
I'm absolutely positive that I could call around to my local McD's and find at least one manager willing to work up an 81 burger order for gold.
There's a major coin shop in my area just 1 mile from the local McD's. I think that one would work out quite well. Maybe I'll even have the
local coin shop owner pay that manager a visit.
I'll say this again for the umpteenth time. There are no investments any more. Just various levels of speculation. The FED and big banks have screwed up the
cost of capital so much that no one knows what anything is truly worth. Everyone is speculating as to what X is worth. The waitress that picked up that Peace Dollar
as payment could easily slip her own cash in to pay for it. What, is it so hard to believe that no one carries $35 cash with them any more? >>
<< <i>
I'll say this again for the umpteenth time. There are no investments any more. Just various levels of speculation >>
For once, I agree with you 100% with the above statement, which btw includes PM's
I misread the reference to the silver dollar dinner feast. I thought he paid with a roll of silver dollars and not one.
<< <i>saying, "you're wrong" has never been a very convincing argument. Maybe you should try SAYING IT LOUDER, or better yet, offer some reasoning.
Perhaps start by explaining why you think gold is "money" and silver is not. And you'll need to go a little beyond your 100 year old Morgan quote
If gold is "money", then also "money" are ...
barley, rice, salt, peppercorns, large stones, decorated belts, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, and candy >>
Labor is money. Knowledge is money. A helping hand is money.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What, is it so hard to believe that no one carries $35 cash with them any more? >>
I dont, I use CC for everything.
I have a few $1s in my car if I need toll or parking meter money etc, otherwise its on the CC for the rewards and paid off every month.
To note though, I agree with your comments thus far, just not sure if any McD in my area would have anyone smart enough to accept gold for 81 burgers though haha >>
What is the reward of having your every purchase tracked? I don't trust a credit card company not to sell every scrap of info it gathers to the highest bidder.
That transaction probably pays for the reward points. >>
reward gift cards that i use to buy more pm's. Maybe not the wisest thing to do but to me, its free silver/gold
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
This!
<<its on the CC for the rewards and paid off every month.>>
What is the reward of having your every purchase tracked? I don't trust a credit card company not to sell every scrap of info it gathers to the highest bidder.
And This!
Yeah, man - I hear ya. Lowes wants every transaction record, and so does Bass Pro, and so does the grocery store, and so does Sam's Club, and so does Ace Hardware, and so does Staples. Who am I forgetting? Oh, yeah - good old Uncle Sam, for sure.
Big Yellow Taxi, Joni Mitchell was dead-on.
Added, and let's not forget your friendly neighborhood global banking institution who helpfully provides all oversight, if you should opt for any amount of cash beyond the recommended dose.
I knew it would happen.