Heritage auction now...

JCMhouston · January 6, 2013 6:39AM

Prices seem pretty reasonable so far, lots of stuff going under estimate, but I bet it doesn't stay that way when I get ready to bid.

Z- did you get the 12 Ducats?

3Mark · January 6, 2013 6:50AM

Jeff:

A friend of mine is there and has looked at the lots and he said the British lots were the best looking overall. He is a strong buyer of crowns and I don't think he will get in your way

3Mark

Zohar · January 6, 2013 7:39AM

Stuff that I was looking at is high as well as the Australian pieces which beat estimates by far. I did get one piece which I will post later. Good luck to everyone.

Zohar · January 6, 2013 8:02AM

See this one

EVillageProwler · January 6, 2013 8:06AM

I'm currently high bidder on a lot tonight that stretches my budget too much. If I lose, I will cry. If I win, I will also cry (not tears of joy). It's a premium piece that likely will stay off the market for the remainder of my lifetime, no matter who wins it.

For tomorrow evening, I'm also high bidder on a rare piece.

I know many/most of you can share my emotions right now...

And to everyone here: best of luck!

EVP

7Jaguars · January 6, 2013 8:26AM

I don't sense a lot of excitement overall....
Nothing I have to have, maybe cpl. Brits if they don't get stupid.

EVillageProwler · January 6, 2013 11:48AM

<< I'm currently high bidder on a lot tonight that stretches my budget too much. If I lose, I will cry. If I win, I will also cry (not tears of joy). It's a premium piece that likely will stay off the market for the remainder of my lifetime, no matter who wins it. >>

I'm done for the evening. Yes, I'm crying now. Time for letting my mind go numb and sleep. Work tomorrow beckons.

EVP

Zohar · January 6, 2013 12:01PM

Crying from joy I hope?

JCMhouston · January 6, 2013 12:26PM

I'm planning on a contest for who won the lowest grade coin tonight. I think I'm in with a chance, I passed up a bunch of decent German States waiting for this and then got it reasonably cheap. It is low grade (VF25), but a pretty decent strike, one planchet crack and otherwise not to mucked about over the years, I present:

Philip and Mary, by the Grace of God King and Queen of England, Spain, France, both the Sicilies, Jerusalem and Ireland, Defenders of the Faith, Archdukes of Austria, Dukes of Burgundy, Milan and Brabant, Counts of Habsburg, Flanders and Tyrol:

Quite a job title they had.

Zohar · January 6, 2013 12:34PM

Thats a very nice piece of history Jeff - well done!

EVillageProwler · January 6, 2013 12:45PM

<< Crying from joy I hope? >>

I won my lot, at opening bid (which was below my max), but I still had my budget blown. I also really need to win my lot tomorrow too, because it's another lifelong keeper. Then I need to miraculously get money for the bourse.

Who pays top dollar for blood and other bodily secretions?

EVP

Zohar · January 6, 2013 1:02PM

Care to share your purchase with us ?

WorldTypeSet · January 6, 2013 1:04PM

I was the underbidder on my first 4 bids ... then won this one ...

Z & EVP ... do we have to beg to see what you won?

Zohar · January 6, 2013 1:19PM

The Paar family, of Italian decent, was known in Austria from the 16th century. For almost 300 years and through many generations, the family was in charge of postal management in Austria, Hungary, Bohemia, and at the Imperial court in Vienna. This hereditary arrangement lasted until the nationalization and reorganization of the Austrian postal system. In 1636 the head of the family was created a count of the Empire, and in 1769 Joseph II granted to Johann Wenzel the title of prince. It is said that hia personal services, such as escorting both wives of the Emperor to Vienna and his assistance in promoting the marriages of the Emperor's two sisters, rendered some help in obtaining his title. Johann Wenzel was followed by his son Wenzel, a well known art lover, draftsman, and archer, who was the second and last member of the family to strike coins.

Therefore as one can assume, Austrian Noble Houses minted relatively few coins. These hardly show up and seldom in such grade.

1771. Paar. Johann Wenzel 1/2 Convention Taler
NGC MS-63
Mintage of 700

Zohar · January 6, 2013 1:20PM

PBRat what does she grade?

EVillageProwler · January 6, 2013 1:20PM

Zohar, Paul,

I don't mean to be a tease or a punk, but I'm really not in a position to identify the piece nor explain why I'm being hush-hush at this time. Sorry.

EVP

Zohar · January 6, 2013 1:22PM

So why post/mention in the first place

EVillageProwler · January 6, 2013 1:24PM

<< So why post/mention in the first place

>>

Because I was over-wrought with nervous tension and needed an outlet.

Zohar · January 6, 2013 1:38PM

Well when you recover (in a few weeks) and share this piece with us I am certain it will dazzle the forum. Congrats on the purchase.

WorldTypeSet · January 6, 2013 1:49PM

PBRat what does she grade?

It was one of the handful of MS68 sixpences in this auction. I figured I'd grab one of them for my type set. The pic is the one that shows up with the PCGS Cert Verification, not the Heritage pic.

1771. Paar. Johann Wenzel 1/2 Convention Taler
NGC MS-63
Mintage of 700

Wow.

Congratulations to everyone on their winnings.

7Jaguars · January 6, 2013 1:52PM

And I am sure many of us have committed equally bad (or WORSE!) sins...

I got the 1862 shilling as I was really pissed at mine only grading 61 - maybe those Brits are right and I should have dipped mine since it did not have the "grunge" of lowly 61s. Also got the 1836 shilling I did not need to bid on...

I was going to bid on the currency '67 florin but that scratch ticked (huh, like the pun?) me off so left it alone.

Hey, how about the 1902 crown going 3250 plus the juice, or 3818.00 for a "65". I know that we are not supposed to ramp, but the '02s in matte, and Eddy7's in general get muffed by the TPGs rather horridly on occasion....

Reveries · January 6, 2013 1:57PM

I purchased the 1867 MS64 Plus Florin. Even though it lists a scratch the coin is very very hard to find this nice and very few show up.
I have been looking for one for the past 6 years and this was the first that i have come across for sale.
The 1852 MS66 Florin sold for a reasonable amount (weak strike) but i cannnot figure out the plus designation on some of these Florins?

Zohar · January 6, 2013 2:00PM

7Jaguars would you say the British prices are trending higher in general?

Reveries · January 6, 2013 2:02PM

The 1771 Parr is Simply Stunning - What a revelation for me! Wow!
I need to have one of those for sure!

EVillageProwler · January 6, 2013 2:04PM

Prices for British pieces, and even the early hammered stuff, have gone up a lot since the past few years. Ouch!

I generally dislike chasing coins in auctions that are generally available, because with some patience I can usually get nice pieces from dealer inventories at better prices. But, I do step up in auctions when I see something really special.

EVP

Zohar · January 6, 2013 2:06PM

Thanks Reveries - first time I had seen one in decent shape.

MacCrimmon · January 6, 2013 2:23PM

<< I purchased the 1867 MS64 Plus Florin. Even though it lists a scratch the coin is very very hard to find this nice and very few show up.
I have been looking for one for the past 6 years and this was the first that i have come across for sale.
The 1852 MS66 Florin sold for a reasonable amount (weak strike) but i cannnot figure out the plus designation on some of these Florins? >>

Reveries; great! Now I know where to go when I try to build my florin date run set.

Zohar, that Paar looks nicer than "just a 63".

7Jaguars · January 6, 2013 10:47PM

Yes, IMO, British coins are up with regards to rarer or more nicely preserved (higher mint state/proof) bits, but with very notable exceptions. I think that ultra-grade 1847 crown hit the skids as the earlier one from a couple years ago went for over 50k (vs. 27k this time). Also, the marquee 1887 "pattern" gold crown went supposedly for 200k - I don't think that made the money SOME thought it would and I think it may have served a benchmark for this type.

Also, I think that many of the coins did not go quite for what people including the consignor thought they might - though quite fair in all.

I am of the opinion that top-end coins are a bit insulated from many of the downward trends we see, but on the other hand the middle and lower echelon coins may languish. Indeed, the VIP proof 20th C. coins did VERY poorly with the 1933 & later 6ds going for about 1k, the 1953 matte 6d 1400, the 1934 and 1957 halfcrowns about 1300 or so from memory. The 1948 pennies (Very rare, and TWO for sale) went about 1400...

marcmoish · January 6, 2013 11:47PM

Paul that's a truly nice piece congrats

Z I was watching that piece really closely - I was chasing it just went for strong money - its worth it as its an amazing piece man I'm gonna hit myself alot for this but at least its in good hands. I won't lie its was out of my budget for this month too ;/

Zohar · January 7, 2013 12:12AM

Thanks Marc agree it went high yet these are seldom seen. Didn't realize you we're going for it yet that fact alone confirms its a very nice fractional taler. Cheers.

marcmoish · January 7, 2013 1:02AM

darn it sure is - the strike and surfaces for the issue and the totally insane eye appeal for this piece is really what makes the heart flutter.

I will need to stay overnite one evening at your place and you need to divulge where you keep your goodies - I will obviously be gone in the morning haha! Hmmm just wondering do you need a babysitter?

bidask · January 7, 2013 7:03AM

<< Yes, IMO, British coins are up with regards to rarer or more nicely preserved (higher mint state/proof) bits, but with very notable exceptions. I think that ultra-grade 1847 crown hit the skids as the earlier one from a couple years ago went for over 50k (vs. 27k this time). Also, the marquee 1887 "pattern" gold crown went supposedly for 200k - I don't think that made the money SOME thought it would and I think it may have served a benchmark for this type.

Also, I think that many of the coins did not go quite for what people including the consignor thought they might - though quite fair in all.

I am of the opinion that top-end coins are a bit insulated from many of the downward trends we see, but on the other hand the middle and lower echelon coins may languish. Indeed, the VIP proof 20th C. coins did VERY poorly with the 1933 & later 6ds going for about 1k, the 1953 matte 6d 1400, the 1934 and 1957 halfcrowns about 1300 or so from memory. The 1948 pennies (Very rare, and TWO for sale) went about 1400... >>

I went to $2600 on the 1935 PCGS 67 proof cam rocking horse crown sterling but it went for 3000 hammer.....seems pretty strong.

Zohar · January 7, 2013 7:07AM

I believe drivers are:

1) Liteside collectors shifting over given relative purchasing power and design. Think of an equivalent Morgan Dollar...
2) Scarcity
3) Dollar losing value and yielding nothing in cash. After all this chaos in Europe its still 1.3:1 ratio in favor of Euro.

EVillageProwler · January 7, 2013 9:00AM

I won my "must have" lot for today:

Lot 22162: Italy, Casale. NGC MS61. Dav-3870. A rare bird in MS. I got this for below my max. Whew. So, which clinic pays top dollar for blood and other stuff?

EVillageProwler · January 7, 2013 9:03AM

<< I believe drivers are:

1) Liteside collectors shifting over given relative purchasing power and design. Think of an equivalent Morgan Dollar...
2) Scarcity
3) Dollar losing value and yielding nothing in cash. After all this chaos in Europe its still 1.3:1 ratio in favor of Euro. >>

2 of the 3 are my reasons.

worldcoinguy · January 7, 2013 12:26PM

Very nice pickups everybody......and we haven't even seen any NYINC pics yet!

Gazza · January 7, 2013 10:38PM

<< 

<< Yes, IMO, British coins are up with regards to rarer or more nicely preserved (higher mint state/proof) bits, but with very notable exceptions. I think that ultra-grade 1847 crown hit the skids as the earlier one from a couple years ago went for over 50k (vs. 27k this time). Also, the marquee 1887 "pattern" gold crown went supposedly for 200k - I don't think that made the money SOME thought it would and I think it may have served a benchmark for this type.

Also, I think that many of the coins did not go quite for what people including the consignor thought they might - though quite fair in all.

I am of the opinion that top-end coins are a bit insulated from many of the downward trends we see, but on the other hand the middle and lower echelon coins may languish. Indeed, the VIP proof 20th C. coins did VERY poorly with the 1933 & later 6ds going for about 1k, the 1953 matte 6d 1400, the 1934 and 1957 halfcrowns about 1300 or so from memory. The 1948 pennies (Very rare, and TWO for sale) went about 1400... >>

I went to 2600 hammer on the 1935 PCGS 67 proof cam rocking horse crown sterling but it went for 3000 hammer.....seems pretty strong. >>

Text

Strong, that's an understatement for a $750 coin

7Jaguars · January 8, 2013 3:38AM

I think that that particular coin is an "outlier" - by that I mean that it is one of those commem crowns that in high grade people get crazy over [for now at least]. A true rarity like the matte 1953 sixpence IMO is worth at least as much and likely MUCH MORE, and yet languishes even is a sale such as this one...

JCMhouston · January 8, 2013 9:54AM

I agree with you 7Jaguars, but it seems people have always liked the larger coins. The matte 6d is probably one of 2-3 known?

coinkat · January 8, 2013 10:06AM

Agreed-

There is a difference between rarity and demand and it extends to collectibles other than coins.

bidask · January 9, 2013 11:02AM

<< I think that that particular coin is an "outlier" - by that I mean that it is one of those commem crowns that in high grade people get crazy over [for now at least]. A true rarity like the matte 1953 sixpence IMO is worth at least as much and likely MUCH MORE, and yet languishes even is a sale such as this one... >>

Why should they not get crazy ?

That 1935 crown in 67 cameo ( 92.5 sterling) is top pop at PCGS......even with the mintage it often comes scruffy in proof as not many gems out there.....

Analyst · January 9, 2013 11:26AM

‭CoinKat: <<There is a difference between rarity and demand and it extends to collectibles other than coins. >>

‭Yes, there are reasons why some items are subject to greater demand than others. This is one of the issues that I raise in my review of this Heritage auction.

‭European Gold Shines in World Coin Auction

Gazza · January 11, 2013 6:39PM

<< 

<< I think that that particular coin is an "outlier" - by that I mean that it is one of those commem crowns that in high grade people get crazy over [for now at least]. A true rarity like the matte 1953 sixpence IMO is worth at least as much and likely MUCH MORE, and yet languishes even is a sale such as this one... >>

Why should they not get crazy ?

That 1935 crown in 67 cameo ( 92.5 sterling) is top pop at PCGS......even with the mintage it often comes scruffy in proof as not many gems out there..... >>

I don't think I agree with that last statement. This crown was issued as a collectors piece, it never circulated. Yes a few have been miss-treated and a couple even entered circulation. I wouldn't consider the 1-2% of the mintage slabbed by the TPGs anything like representative.

Another concern I have with this is that Spinks value this coin at $1000 in FDC which should be a 70, they don't give a separate inflated valuation for slabbed coins. My insurance company pays out by Spinks valuations, so the max I'd get on lose is $1000. I guess one could maybe get an agreed value but then what is a coin worth, is it what you paid or what the under bidder would have paid.

7Jaguars · January 11, 2013 10:53PM

Exactly, I had posted this Gazza virtually verbatim from I-phone but somehow didn't get it to show.

I have seen a number that under glass would appear to be "67" material, and believe I have two that would as well as one came from an original 1935 silver proof set that looks to have been in "celly" since issue. IMO outrageous price as were some of the 1887 and 1893 crown and gold pieces in proof in the same sale as for the same reasons, MANY can be found unslabbed in very high quality despite a number being mishandled.

My other pet peeve is with TPG grading of the 1902 mattes; the buyer is most strongly advised to LOOK at the coin in person rather than take the graders opinions as they have IMO been highly erratic.

bidask · January 11, 2013 11:39PM

Market value at least at auction spoke for itself this time for the
PCGS 67 cameos.

Are you guys saying you can find nice raw
coins and get them slabbed by PCGS at 67 cam
and then offer them out at less than half
of what auction brought because of
your thoughts of what it should be or because of
insurance factors?

Find me a PCGS 67cameo and I am a buyer
at $2600.

7Jaguars · January 12, 2013 1:44AM

BA, just give Steve Hill at Baldwin a ring and you are done on that! Better yet, ask his opinion if you are at NYINC as he is usually there.

Yes, we are. Mintage 2,500 is not a lot but demand fairly low.

JCMhouston · January 12, 2013 2:40AM

It seems this gets back to the issue of a common coin in high grade, and what is that worth. Some of us like to collect coins with absolute rarity, and some prefer condition rarity, rarely do the two agree. And for the record, I don't consider a coin rare until you get into the range of 100 known or so in all grades. Anything with more than 200-300 known (in collectible condition) I would consider common as an example will show up in auction every few months and it's just a matter of writing a check.

As an example, a Phillip and Mary shilling in nice VF, or an 1816 shilling in MS67. Both have a market value that is similar, but one is a common coin in high grade and one an uncommon coin in an average grade. Comparing coins in the recent auction the PF67 DCAM 1935 Crown, or a 1957 Halfpenny in PF65? For me, at least, the halfpenny with a mintage of probably 20-30 is preferred over the Crown, but of course size doesn't matter to me

, and it does to most people. I think both approaches to collecting are equally valid, it's just an individual preference.

Besides Stephen at Baldwin I can think of a couple of others to contact and within a month or two they would probably find a high grade example of the more common coins. Mark Rasmussen or Spinks could also probably help.

bidask · January 12, 2013 3:22AM

I think it's more difficult to make a 67 cameo than what is being
said here.......I want a PCGS 67 cameo.....not a raw coin
from a dealer who tells me its so.

I did not buy the coin in the Heritage auction.

I stopped at $2600 and there were 2 over bidders.

If I were a dealer and it was that easy
to make a PCGS 67 cam from a raw coin
as what is being suggested then based
on this auction result I would be doing it.

Maybe you should be too if you have access
to these raw coins.

Gazza · January 12, 2013 3:45AM

There's a group on a British forum considering doing just this as we speak because of the insane prices being paid for what we in to UK consider common coins obtainable in the raw in similar grade for a fraction of the price.

bidask · January 12, 2013 4:01AM

<< There's a group on a British forum considering doing just this as we speak because of the insane prices being paid for what we in to UK consider common coins obtainable in the raw in similar grade for a fraction of the price. >>

a British coin forum.....link please?

7Jaguars · January 12, 2013 5:50AM

www.predecimal.com
Look at the forum sections.

I can assure you they would find the first bit of your last post ludicrous - buying the slab.
And you may find the dealers mentioned by Jeff and I are quite the opposite of your surmise -
I have had GEF = good extra fine coins grade out by PCGS as MS65.
And BTW, Mark R's or Steve Hill's expertise would FAR outweigh the graders at either PCGS or NGC -
not my opinion. Slam dunk, no comparison.

The whole notion of "top pop" is crazy when the pool of slabbed specimens is quite small
compared to the overall extant specimens.

PS - sorry help me on the linkify

Heritage auction now...

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