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Colonials - I'm still a grasshopper
Zoins
Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
How do you know when you are a grasshopper and have much more to learn?
I've been following colonials for some time, including those on the CRO website; however I haven't picked one up yet. That being said, I've identified some pieces that I would like to pick up if the right opportunity arose.
Recently, I decided to follow a PCGS PR67 pop 1/0 piece that I thought was interesting. It sold for $17k in 2008 and $10k in 2009. I was thinking about pulling the trigger in 2012 but didn't. It came in at $8,500 or a loss of 50% over 4 years.
I was excited at the prospect of picking up a PCGS PR67 pop 1/0, but now I know I have much more to learn.
I've done well sticking to pieces I know and understand; however, this is an area where I clearly need to know more before pulling the trigger.
I've been following colonials for some time, including those on the CRO website; however I haven't picked one up yet. That being said, I've identified some pieces that I would like to pick up if the right opportunity arose.
Recently, I decided to follow a PCGS PR67 pop 1/0 piece that I thought was interesting. It sold for $17k in 2008 and $10k in 2009. I was thinking about pulling the trigger in 2012 but didn't. It came in at $8,500 or a loss of 50% over 4 years.
I was excited at the prospect of picking up a PCGS PR67 pop 1/0, but now I know I have much more to learn.
I've done well sticking to pieces I know and understand; however, this is an area where I clearly need to know more before pulling the trigger.
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numismatic news article: few dare venture into colonial coins
9-21-2010 pg. 30 - vol. 59 no. 38
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<< <i>How do you know when you are a grasshopper and have much more to learn? >>
If you're still breathing.
Sure, you might get to be one of those BIG grasshoppers, but everybody has room to learn.
One of the things I've discovered is, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I actually know.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>How do you know when you are a grasshopper and have much more to learn? >>
I think we always have much more to learn, but if you are asking the question, chances are it's a bit too early to start pulling the trigger -- particularly at a price point which seems to me to be a lot of money (it may or may not be so for you). Perhaps you could pull the trigger on a less expensive/risky piece, or a coin with a more solid track record to minimize what is already likely to be a risky transaction given your experience level. Just some food for thought, respectfully submitted...Mike
That statement is doubled down if you decide to really get serious and collect some series by die variety. Some pieces are only known in low grade, sometimes very low grade. Since I collect by type, and often by representative type, I have maintained my standard of nothing below VF.
As for reference material, I would strongly advise you to buy a copy of the Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins by Q. David Bowers. That book is simply wonderful. The Early Coins of America by Sylvester Crosby, despite the fact that it was written over 125 years ago, is also outstanding.
Pop top coins in any series can be volatile - a few Walking Liberty Halves and Franklin Halves (and I'm sure many, many other issues) have had similar trajectories through the years.
I would suggest that paying top dollar for a condition rarity in any series makes sense IF the coin really is considered by the expert dealers and collectors to be top of the heap and not merely the highest one graded so far. The coins in the former category tend to have lasting power; the latter, not so much.
Coin Rarities Online
- Why am I interested in colonials? (They are a tangible connection to history...)
- What colonials do I like the most? Why? (State coppers? Massachusetts silver? Fugios? Other?)
- What do I appreciate most - condition or rarity? (This is important because colonials in general are far more rare than most federal issues, but their average condition is much lower)
- What kind of collection do I want to build? (A type set; a specific series by die variety; coins with horses on them; whatever...)
Once you answer those, you will be able to focus your efforts...and focus is a very important element of colonial collecting.
<< <i>If you are talking about a Proof-67 in that price range you must be referring to a Washington Draped Bust "Restrike" in Silver struck at around the time of the Civil War These were made for collectors and always come in high grade (though admittedly not in 67).
Pop top coins in any series can be volatile - a few Walking Liberty Halves and Franklin Halves (and I'm sure many, many other issues) have had similar trajectories through the years.
I would suggest that paying top dollar for a condition rarity in any series makes sense IF the coin really is considered by the expert dealers and collectors to be top of the heap and not merely the highest one graded so far. The coins in the former category tend to have lasting power; the latter, not so much. >>
You're right John. I was also following a few of the copper pieces you had on your website that seemed to sell relatively fast. In particular, I thought the copper PF67 in your archives looked nice and that it would have been cool to have a copper PF67 and silver PF67 in a PCGS dual holder.
This seems to be a reminder of two things (a) prices of condition rarities can be very volatile as you mention, prices can be pushed up by the presence of just two collectors and (b) the pricing level chart actually reminds me somewhat of real estate pricing in certain parts of the country.
I will continue to study for now
On the collecting side, I whole heartedly agree with Bill that the Whitman Encyclopedia by Mr Bowers is a terrific book. There are certainly some experts in the field but most of the rest of us are still learning everyday so the more references one can acquire, the better. I'd strongly encourage anyone sitting on the fence to dive in and enjoy this fascinating area of numismatics rather than wait until they feel they have learned it all. I neglected Colonials for decades but now find them to be truly consuming and very enjoyable. Start small and inexpensive and work your way up would be an approach I'd suggest to a collector interested in exploring this category. Finding a dealer you trust and can work with along the way is a great asset in the process.
On the investment side, based on the track record of this one coin I'm uncertain we can deduce anything more than that for a number of possible reasons it has declined in price over the past 4+ years (yeah I know, that's obvious
Best of luck in your endeavors and most of all, I sincerely hope you enjoy the ride!
<< <i>I'm not really sure if this topic is more about coin investment in general or about collecting Colonials. >>
I'm a coin collector and this is certainly about collecting. That being said, beyond a certain level, I don't think collecting should be used as a reason to take a potentially unnecessary loss. There are areas I collect which have a high ROI, but that's a bonus, not the raison d'être. I'm also not currently looking for a high ROI in this area, just a non-negative NPV. I think once you understand an area well, it becomes easier to properly price items and avoid losses which can make collecting more fun.
<< <i>The coins I miss most (that I haven't re-acquired) are my Washingtonia/Washingtoniana...I still have a few but I miss the ones that left. And, curiously, the ones I sold all went up in value.
Washingtonia is a current interest of mine too. Love the history.
I purposely chose VF+ examples (instead of mint state) of the more common varieties (such as the Hibernia coinage) to try and have a matched set. I avoid high grade proof re-strikes, as they aren't really colonials and proofs have never been my thing.
The Higley copper is the most difficult piece of the set.
Colonial registry set
<< <i>If you are talking about a Proof-67 in that price range you must be referring to a Washington Draped Bust "Restrike" in Silver struck at around the time of the Civil War These were made for collectors and always come in high grade (though admittedly not in 67).
Pop top coins in any series can be volatile - a few Walking Liberty Halves and Franklin Halves (and I'm sure many, many other issues) have had similar trajectories through the years.
I would suggest that paying top dollar for a condition rarity in any series makes sense IF the coin really is considered by the expert dealers and collectors to be top of the heap and not merely the highest one graded so far. The coins in the former category tend to have lasting power; the latter, not so much. >>
The market for pieces like this is very thin. If the two or three people who are really interested in this piece don't get involved when it comes up for auction or fail to participate in the bidding, the price might be a lot lower than when the piece sold previously. For example if I learned that this so-called "colonial" was actually struck in the 1860s I'd have no interest in it. That's why pieces like the New Haven restrike (A total misnomer since the original dies were not used.) Fugio cents don't interest me in the least. I think that a lot of the colonial collectors, who are much more serious students of the series than I am, feel the same way.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>I agree with what BillJones wrote. I also do not care for restrikes. >>
I also agree...I don't care for restrikes either. But I came around to that way of thinking after I had been collecting colonials for a while. Many collectors think that if a coin is in the colonial section of the Red Book, then it must be included in a comprehensive colonial collection. In fact, that is not the case at all. There are restrikes, Conder Tokens produced in England for collectors, and other coins that do not have any "real" connection to colonial America. Conversely, there are many foreign coins that circulated in colonial America that are excluded from colonial collections (wrongfully, in my opinion).
Good advice offered - a good read.
Hmmm... Is it wise to start a new series by purchasing a coin worth five figures??? I'd recommend caution.
Restrikes in colonials can be all over the map with their pricing. While the grade of MS67 may seem very lofty and be a top 1/0 pop, truthfully most do not fit into the "colonial" series other than as an association piece. As mentioned before, I would assume the discussion is about a Washington Bust Restrike, and if that is the case, they were made in the later part of the 1800s and many are found in high grade with nice surfaces and eye appeal.
Top pop colonials struck in the 1700s are historically a fantastic investment, as are most colonials with nice color, surfaces and eye appeal.
My advice would be to start slow, look through some reference catalogs/books to find the types/series that you really enjoy the look of and check out the Heritage archive to see what examples have brought over the years. Having a plan with colonials in the beginning really helps when going forward with purchasing. The only thing is, as a colonial collector knows, that list will often change over time as they spot cool items that they never thought about in the beginning.
Good luck!
It's good to hear what people appreciate to help estimate the number of collectors interested in pieces, whether they are period pieces or association pieces.