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Gem proof, lib nics,barber dimes ect. Have not moved much,

in the last 15 years,as far as I can tell. I have s ome extra cash at the end of this year, I can buy a sweet gem liberty nickel in pcgs-65 for $475.00 I love to collect and enjoy coins but as anyone I would hope for a potential upside. My question is, why has lovely GEM type coins not increased in value much over the long haul? I think I am going to buy it because I love the look of Gem proof coins. What say the men and women of the boards? The coin in question is a beautiful deeply mirrored PF-65, PCGS 1901 nickel, should I go for it??
coolbreeze

Comments

  • Can't predict the future but I do think your down side is limited if the coin I right. If you like it have have 500 to blow then go for it.
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if you like it buy, don't worry about whether it goes up or down??

    J
  • Ok, I bought the nickel and I also bought a nice edge toned 1921 pilgrim for $310.00,I spent my bonus on coins??? Maybe I should have spent it on women&drinking, but then I would not have anything to look at after the new year.
    coolbreeze
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The reason is simple. There are very large quantities of these coins available. The most common of all pre-1936 proof type coins are the nickel type (3c nickels, Lib nickels, and Indian Cents). Basically, you could order extra minor sets in addition to your standard proof set at little additional cost. They were cheap and attractive so they got ordered. The demand from type collectors doesn't quite cover all of the coins available. Back in 1989 a PF65 3c nickel or Lib nickel qualified as an "investment" coin. With increasing pops, it now takes a killer 66 or even a 67 to distance oneself from the "too-available" 65's and 66's. It's getting to the point where maybe it will take a 67+ to excite the stronger buyers. I don't see much of a future for PF65's. They will always be attractive and "great values." But, probably won't go anywhere in price....at least not for another 5-10 years until the economy gets straightened out. It's going to be hard for readily available coins to buck a 120 yr economic cycle bottoming. No one alive today has ever seen one before. Therefore, no one really knows how rare coins will perform during the final couple years of this 120 yr debt deleveraging cycle. During that cycle, many coins went to unreasonable heights in 1980 and 1989.

    19th century PF65 nickel type has done poorly since the blow off in 1989. They managed to do quite well from 1986-1989 because there were so few gem slabbed coins available for the hundreds of millions of dollars that was rummaging through the market. The slabbed market is 10X to 20X bigger today than in 1988. There are 8x to 10x as many gem proof 3c nickels living in slabs today. There aren't 10X to 20X more collectors and investors. We'd be lucky if there 2X as many buyers as 1989. PF65 Barbers are much less availble than the nickel type, but still readily available. Rare coins are going through the same deleveraging process that debt is. Inflated housing (and coin) prices from the 1962-2007 era are being readjusted along with everything else that got out of whack because of unlimited debt-money chasing after them. The survivors of that trend will be the very best 5-10% of each market. Most numismatic coins probably began their deleveraging cycle in either 1980 or 1989. The aftershocks/bounces since then have managed to propell smaller and smaller portions of the market higher, but not the majority of it. I doubt gem proof 3 cent nickels are as high today as they were in late 1979. That's 33 years of poor performance. That's a long time for a trend not to break the other way. I would concede that the price of PF68's has no doubt advanced in that time frame. I recall monster MS67/68 superb gem seated quarters of the 1880's fetching $12K to $20K during the market heat of April 1980. They've never exceeded that level since. And in summer of 1982 you could have bought those same coins back for a measly $1,500 to $3,000. We've never seen a 2 year crash that severe ever since. That was 30 yrs ago, which coincidentally divides perfectly into our 120 yr cycle ending in 2014. If we look at the 20, 40, and 60 yr components we get 1992-1994, 1972-1974, 1952-1954...more recessions/wars.

    Those previous 30 yr distress markers occurred at 1892-1894, 1932-1934, 1962-1964, 1992-1994, 2012-2014....... image

    And the previous 120 yr cycle 30 yr markers: 1772-1774, 1802-1804, 1832-1834, 1862-1864, 1892-1894.

    A few similarities seem to jump out...and more than likely, challenging times ahead for common 19th century PF65 nickel type....as if the past 30 yrs haven't been challenging already. The bar keeps getting raised on what few coins continue to get pulled along by fickle investors, speculators, and collectors. This only makes sense since the total dollar pool is not increasing dramatically and neither are the number of collectors. But the amount of slabbed coins does keep on growing, especially the common ones. Every new year the US mint adds more coins to the collectible pool. There's not enough money to keep covering all the new issues and fads while also supporting all the pre-modern stuff. Multiply this by hundreds of different collectible markets (coins, stamps, toys, art, antiques, cars, sports memorabilia, movie memorabilia, clothing, books, tools, guns, post cards, comics, clocks, glassware, utensils, rugs, rocks, fossils, bones, gems, jewelry, signatures, photographs, war and military artifacts, etc.). Technically, it's almost infinite as every 20 yrs new items are now "collectible." We also need to mention that us dinosaurs in our 50's and 60's fueled this market first as kids from 1958-1968, then as young adults in the 1970's and 1980's, and finally as middle agers in the 2000's. No one is yet stepping up to carry this torch as the baby boomers did. Population growth helped to fuel that 40 yr bull coin market. And now population growth tailing off and even shrinking won't help any.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • How long can dealer to dealer business sustain itself, I guess quite some time. Morgans,peace,franklins, and all the generics, keep this market moving. I mean the market has joked itself into someone paying $60,000 plus for a high grade franklin with FBL, I cant recall the exact example, but it was stupid then as it would be now. There are THOUSANDS of them not even graded yet(by a service). To me I stick with classic coins with low mintages that time has taken its toll on,it should be blue chip. I mean out of a country of +300 million it would only take a couple thousand collectors to send prices for certain series thru the roof. I digress it is mostly dealer to dealer transactions that make up the big business in "RARE COINS"
    coolbreeze
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How long can dealer to dealer business sustain itself, I guess quite some time. Morgans,peace,franklins, and all the generics, keep this market moving. I mean the market has joked itself into someone paying $60,000 plus for a high grade franklin with FBL, I cant recall the exact example, but it was stupid then as it would be now. There are THOUSANDS of them not even graded yet(by a service). To me I stick with classic coins with low mintages that time has taken its toll on,it should be blue chip. I mean out of a country of +300 million it would only take a couple thousand collectors to send prices for certain series thru the roof. I digress it is mostly dealer to dealer transactions that make up the big business in "RARE COINS" >>



    I would agree that the velocity and trading between dealers is what jacks the price that collectors ultimately pay. This was quite obvious during the "key date" boom from 2002-2008
    when dealers and seasoned collectors stock piled every key date they came across and would trade them back and forth among themselves. And occasionally a collector would have to enter that loop to buy the coin they needed. A MS66 1953-S FBL Franklin could well be a serious $60,000 coin, especially if it's all there and leaning towards MS67. The best 53-s known would be the highlight of every major Franklin REGISTRY set. There can only be one set holding that best coin. So the demand for those 1 of 1's will probably never falter. It took about 8,000 grading events and many years to make that lone MS66 FBL 1953-s. Considering that far less than 1% of all 53-S Franklins make FBL, there aren't going to be many more showing up. A MS67 Reeded Edge Bust Half dollar might fetch a comparable price to that 53-s half. But in both cases there might only be a couple of people having to have the coin in their sets. It really doesn't matter that there is 120 yrs separating them. A pop 1 MS66 1932-d quarter would be an impressive coin as well that will always have a following. While I prefer the classics as well, I can understand the demand/price for pop 1's of the 1930's and up. We can both dream of thousands of collectors wishing to build superb gem sets of Franklins or monster 19th century type sets. It still ain't gonna happen. If thousands of new collectors show up they invariably will be looking at something post 1940 and even post 1970. One exception might be if they are considering common date gem Morgans and Saints. It will be a coin where they can readily grasp the history and value. It won't be a RE half in any grade nor a MS66 1953-s Franklin.

    As far as what's been keeping this coin market alive? That's easy. Gold and silver bullion-related coins. Without that, most of your local shops would have folded long ago. They are primarily bullion dealers now that sell a few numismatic coins along the way. Dealer to dealer business can be somewhat self-sustaining as long as they are end-users at some point. Many dealers are investors in rare coins and bullion. Though at some point they clearly can't support an entire market. Without their churning, many collectors could not find the coins they desire. So there is a purpose served.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • Good for the business that some people feel the need for the highest grade in plastic, genius marketing, by the services with the way they pushed the highest grade in plastic movement, I just sold an average mint state franklin, with (to me) diminishing quality mint set toning for $112.00, in a doily, I paid $49.00 (I would not have paid melt for the coin not in a holder). I got a lot of enjoyment out of the whole process, but it appears to me that this is what collecting has become, and I enjoy and so did my pp account this trend. I am stunned and dumfounded by this concept, but I respect and will try to profit on this. The person that bought the coin e-mailed me and asked if I could package it extra securely, as not to damage the holder, not the coin, the coin is worth melt in my opinion, if you are on the boards, I will make it so you need a hammer to damage the holder. In any case insurance would cover any damage thru shipment. (I really should try to get a new life this year). but the old one is just getting smart.
    coolbreeze


  • << <i>

    << <i>How long can dealer to dealer business sustain itself, I guess quite some time. Morgans,peace,franklins, and all the generics, keep this market moving. I mean the market has joked itself into someone paying $60,000 plus for a high grade franklin with FBL, I cant recall the exact example, but it was stupid then as it would be now. There are THOUSANDS of them not even graded yet(by a service). To me I stick with classic coins with low mintages that time has taken its toll on,it should be blue chip. I mean out of a country of +300 million it would only take a couple thousand collectors to send prices for certain series thru the roof. I digress it is mostly dealer to dealer transactions that make up the big business in "RARE COINS" >>



    I would agree that the velocity and trading between dealers is what jacks the price that collectors ultimately pay. This was quite obvious during the "key date" boom from 2002-2008
    when dealers and seasoned collectors stock piled every key date they came across and would trade them back and forth among themselves. And occasionally a collector would have to enter that loop to buy the coin they needed. A MS66 1953-S FBL Franklin could well be a serious $60,000 coin, especially if it's all there and leaning towards MS67. The best 53-s known would be the highlight of every major Franklin REGISTRY set. There can only be one set holding that best coin. So the demand for those 1 of 1's will probably never falter. It took about 8,000 grading events and many years to make that lone MS66 FBL 1953-s. Considering that far less than 1% of all 53-S Franklins make FBL, there aren't going to be many more showing up. A MS67 Reeded Edge Bust Half dollar might fetch a comparable price to that 53-s half. But in both cases there might only be a couple of people having to have the coin in their sets. It really doesn't matter that there is 120 yrs separating them. A pop 1 MS66 1932-d quarter would be an impressive coin as well that will always have a following. While I prefer the classics as well, I can understand the demand/price for pop 1's of the 1930's and up. We can both dream of thousands of collectors wishing to build superb gem sets of Franklins or monster 19th century type sets. It still ain't gonna happen. If thousands of new collectors show up they invariably will be looking at something post 1940 and even post 1970. One exception might be if they are considering common date gem Morgans and Saints. It will be a coin where they can readily grasp the history and value. It won't be a RE half in any grade nor a MS66 1953-s Franklin.

    As far as what's been keeping this coin market alive? That's easy. Gold and silver bullion-related coins. Without that, most of your local shops would have folded long ago. They are primarily bullion dealers now that sell a few numismatic coins along the way. Dealer to dealer business can be somewhat self-sustaining as long as they are end-users at some point. Many dealers are investors in rare coins and bullion. Though at some point they clearly can't support an entire market. Without their churning, many collectors could not find the coins they desire. So there is a purpose served. >>

    you are correct about coin shops, as far as that goes, but I disagree about the 1953-S franklin as there is still large amounts of them not graded by the services yet. I think you need nerves of steel to bet on that one, and also it sold for about one third of the high price at a later auction,If my information is correct. R&I coins made the market for cameo pf&ms moderns. I have a 62 franklin in pf -67 cameo and his book that my wife bought me in 95, not knowing anything, but out of my coinworld mag, obviously she read his advertisment, she also bought the same for my father. I must say the coin is a stunning GEM proof, that has only gotten nicer in my eyes since she gave it to me, and I have read the book several times. It could be 96 or 97 I forget the exact year I just remember my son being one or two at the time.
    coolbreeze
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My explanation for the short-term lack of price increases in proof Liberty nickels only considers current-day supply and demand. I believe that relatively few people collect proof Liberty nickels by date compared to the number of coins that are around. I just don't see how prices can move upwards when most of the dates in the set are readily available in PR65. Add to that the fact that many set-building collectors have sought out choice PR64 examples at half the price, and the demand for PR65 coins is even weaker. Prices will move up if a few hundred more collectors decide to build sets, deciding that these coins are undervalued. Until then, they will only mirror the general trend of the classic coin market.









  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not an expert in BU 53-s Franklin rolls. But I would have thought that 90-95% of the rolls out there in collector or dealer hands would have been searched for FBL coins.
    Out of those 8,000 coins PCGS graded by mid 2007 only 36 made FBL's. Those were the best 8,000 coins submitted out of probably tens or hundreds of thousands
    of original 53-s Franklins. Submitters are well aware that average BU coins are a loser when it comes to submissions. One can see by the pop reports by how few
    53-s are graded 63 flat bells that those are not worth the price of slabbing. The min grade has to be 64+ or higher to make it work. The vast majority of the date probably exist
    in MS63 or lower grades. With 26 years of slabbing under our belts, most of the worthwhile rolls have probably been examined for submissions. The 53-s FBL rarity has been
    well known for decades. The 1945 Merc in FB on the other hand is of that same era. There were 3X as many as those graded vs. the 53-s FBL. How many undiscovered rolls of
    1945 Mercs are still out there sporting a FB coin? Not many I'd guess. I see the 53-s Franklin in the same boat. Heritage has auctioned off 2 MS65 FBL's in early 2012, for $25K
    and $28K. Clearly, a far superior specimen could double those prices, especially considering there are 25 of them in MS65. Even the MS64's have been fetching $10K. So clearly,
    searching rolls for these guys is very worthwhile. The world record price set by the MS66 FBL coin was no doubt due to at least 2 bidders that refused to say no...much like that
    recent $104K price for that MS68 1944 Walker. If one of those bidders removes themselves from the market, prices can easily fall by half. I've seen it happen numerous times in other
    areas of the coin market. The world's best 1852-0 quarter went from $25K to $120K and back to $50K within 3 years or so. All that took was 2 determined bidders that refused to say
    no. Then later on one (or both) of them dropped out of the market. It doesn't make it a worthless coin because of the price volatility. What's the coin really worth? If the next time
    that MS66 53-s FBL goes to market there are 2 very determined bidders, it could see $60K to $90K again....assuming the coin is nice for the grade....and sports a sticker. No tickie...no
    pricie.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • MowgliMowgli Posts: 1,219
    To me the price of average PF 65 Liberty Nickels has gone down because they are not that attractive. They are dark and mottled or splotchy. You could do a set in a day on the Internet. However, finding nice PF 65s without mottled or splotchy toning is very hard to do. The "white" versions of these coins go for more money than the dark one that are most often offered. When "white" PF 65s come up they go for strong money. Just my observation

    In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
  • erwindocerwindoc Posts: 4,925 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What about the business strike versions of the same coins? How has the market been over the last several years?
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If one looks at the population of business strike MS Liberty nickels, he/she will see that most of the dates are not rare at all in MS64-65. I will not comment on the monster MS coins, as I am not active in that market, but the MS64-65 market has just held steady, much like the market for PR65 coins. For Barber dimes, these really are tougher to locate in attractive MS64 or better; even accurately graded "P" mints from 1900-1910 are challenging. Dealer asking prices have increased slowly in MS64 and MS65 grades in the past 5 years. In contrast, I don't see the Liberty Nickels in MS making a big price gain any time soon, but a premium quality MS64 in a PCGS holder is still a lot of coin for about $200-225. Like the proof Liberty nickels, I would expect prices for the business strikes to increase or decrease along with the generic type coin market.

  • MFHMFH Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭

    I read recently that an 1885 Liberty Head Nickel in PCGS MS 67 sold this year for $170,000.

    If that isn't showing there isn't collector interest in high grade V Nickels - then I don't know what is !

    Ah, the Registry ... its taken coin collecting to new heights ... without the Grading Companies this coin
    would never have been worth more than the any of the other supurb Gems that are out there ... ie: MS 66's.

    I have not seen the MS 67 - so I can't say it is or it isn't nicer than a Gem 66. I believe its a POP TOP / POP ONE.

    image....I think I like my PCGS 58 very much now !!
    Mike Hayes
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !

    New Barber Purchases
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This thread reminds me of the weather outside. Cold boring uncomfortable sullen depressing no hope no love.
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well it's sunny and cheerful outside here in Texas, but, seriously, the Liberty nickel market is more like you weather.

    Interesting that the true monster grade key dates may be distancing themselves from ordinary MS64-65 coins. Isn't that happening in just about every classic coin series?
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Well it's sunny and cheerful outside here in Texas, but, seriously, the Liberty nickel market is more like your weather.

    Interesting that the true monster grade key dates may be distancing themselves from ordinary MS64-65 coins. Isn't that happening in just about every classic coin series? >>




    Yes. The majority of gains are coming from the pop tops, and especially the top 1 or 2 pieces + monsters in any grade. Those make up <5%, and possibly <1% of all PF/MS
    Lib nickels. In general, there is not a ton of interest from what I can see in MS65 or lower and PF66 or lower Lib nickels. No surprise that a MS67 1885 Lib nickel is a hot coin. But
    selecting one of the rarest dates in the finest condition known is not exactly indicative of what most dates in MS65 and PF65 coins are doing. You only need 2 or 3 people to bid on the finest knowns for each date in the series. But when you start looking at the MS65-66 grades where pops tend to be 10-200, it's a lot harder to find that many gem date set collectors. That leaves type set collectors to bid on the rest. The price of an MS67 1885 has absolutely no bearing on the price of less than gem MS or even circ specimens. As already mentioned the majority of that $170K price comes from REG set demand.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭✭
    Roadrunner in this thread (not unlike many such threads he's posted to) has offered education and understanding of the coin market I feel as though I should be paying for, yet here it is for free. Thank you, roadrunner, for the insights, and to PCGS for the forum! image
  • MFHMFH Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭

    I fully agree, Roadrunner's insights are an education.
    I think we all appreciate the time and thought processes
    he gives this Forum.
    Mike Hayes
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !

    New Barber Purchases
  • SAM5969SAM5969 Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭
    I couldn't agree more. Not only are RR's posts informative and educational, they are extremely well written and easy to read. It is obvious that a lot of thought and time go into the responses. The fact that he has decades of first hand experience lends credence to all of his statements. I, like so many others, am grateful to have someone willing to take time out of his day to offer valuable information typically only attainable through one's own experience and due diligence.
    imageimage
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RR and I have exchanged a number of PMs, and he knows his classic coins. I sold my PF 65 Barber coins in May of 2012. All of these coins were all solid for the grade, & incurred a loss averaging 10% of what I paid for them. These coins were held between 10 and 13 years.

    The PF 65 Liberty Nickels re most dates are far more common than their MS 65 counterparts. It isn't difficult to find Barber Dimes in PF 65 which are attractive. Quarters are a bit more difficult than dimes. Any nice Barber Half, be it a PF 5 or a MS 5, is hard to come by.

    As others have said, these coins are rarely collected by date and there are enough of them around to prevent anyone or small group of people from cornering the market and trying to hype their prices.

    Liberty Nickels in MS 66 were priced at around $800 until 2001 or 2002. Problem was, you couldn't find any of them. Shortly thereafter, Superior auctioned 20 + of them at one auction. People couldn't get enough of them, and common dates were bid up to $1,600 to $1,700 on average, more for better dates.

    Prices dropped slightly, but for the most part, held steady through 2008 or 2009. If you wanted to get a nice 03 or 04, you had to pay $1,300 to $1,400. Multiply that by 2 1/2 times for better dates (but not keys, those cost more).

    Around 2009, they fell off the wagon, with so-so common dates bringing $900, add $100 or $150 for a nice PCGS example with a sticker. The 2 1/2 time spread for better dates still is holding, except the better date coin which cost $3,800 in 2006 will cost $2,800 now.

    Very nice 6s which are considered shot coins can bring close to 7 money, but imo, you'll have an easier time being a Jew making a pilgrimage to Mecca than making a MS 66 Liberty Nickel into an MS 67.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>RR and I have exchanged a number of PMs, and he knows his classic coins. I sold my PF 65 Barber coins in May of 2012. All of these coins were all solid for the grade, & incurred a loss averaging 10% of what I paid for them. These coins were held between 10 and 13 years.

    The PF 65 Liberty Nickels re most dates are far more common than their MS 65 counterparts. It isn't difficult to find Barber Dimes in PF 65 which are attractive. Quarters are a bit more difficult than dimes. Any nice Barber Half, be it a PF 5 or a MS 5, is hard to come by.

    As others have said, these coins are rarely collected by date and there are enough of them around to prevent anyone or small group of people from cornering the market and trying to hype their prices.

    Liberty Nickels in MS 66 were priced at around $800 until 2001 or 2002. Problem was, you couldn't find any of them. Shortly thereafter, Superior auctioned 20 + of them at one auction. People couldn't get enough of them, and common dates were bid up to $1,600 to $1,700 on average, more for better dates.

    Prices dropped slightly, but for the most part, held steady through 2008 or 2009. If you wanted to get a nice 03 or 04, you had to pay $1,300 to $1,400. Multiply that by 2 1/2 times for better dates (but not keys, those cost more).

    Around 2009, they fell off the wagon, with so-so common dates bringing $900, add $100 or $150 for a nice PCGS example with a sticker. The 2 1/2 time spread for better dates still is holding, except the better date coin which cost $3,800 in 2006 will cost $2,800 now.

    Very nice 6s which are considered shot coins can bring close to 7 money, but imo, you'll have an easier time being a Jew making a pilgrimage to Mecca than making a MS 66 Liberty Nickel into an MS 67. >>



    That last bit of yours will likely ruffle some feathers, I would bet.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Appreciate the multiple plugs. If the tidbits I've learned over the past 40 years aren't passed along, what's the point in knowing them? A lot of this stuff isn't going to
    help me much but maybe it might help someone starting out in a new direction. Numerous times I'm ready to reply to a thread based on what I "recall." But with a little bit of
    research often my view changes considerably because the data doesn't my original stance. Before this thread, I never would have thought a 53-s FBL half was as tougher or tougher
    than a 1945 FSB Merc dime.

    Elcontador provides good analysis on the areas he is working on. He does get the point across quite clearly that there are a lot of coins to be passed by before you find the one
    that works for you. Negotiating the multiple levels of grading and pricing is difficult enough during a full fledged bull market (1997-2008). But it becomes much, much more
    difficult during multi-year pullbacks. We've gone from a bifurcated market back in 2006 to something that is now either quadfurcated or something of a higher order.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>RR and I have exchanged a number of PMs, and he knows his classic coins. I sold my PF 65 Barber coins in May of 2012. All of these coins were all solid for the grade, & incurred a loss averaging 10% of what I paid for them. These coins were held between 10 and 13 years.

    The PF 65 Liberty Nickels re most dates are far more common than their MS 65 counterparts. It isn't difficult to find Barber Dimes in PF 65 which are attractive. Quarters are a bit more difficult than dimes. Any nice Barber Half, be it a PF 5 or a MS 5, is hard to come by.

    As others have said, these coins are rarely collected by date and there are enough of them around to prevent anyone or small group of people from cornering the market and trying to hype their prices.

    Liberty Nickels in MS 66 were priced at around $800 until 2001 or 2002. Problem was, you couldn't find any of them. Shortly thereafter, Superior auctioned 20 + of them at one auction. People couldn't get enough of them, and common dates were bid up to $1,600 to $1,700 on average, more for better dates.

    Prices dropped slightly, but for the most part, held steady through 2008 or 2009. If you wanted to get a nice 03 or 04, you had to pay $1,300 to $1,400. Multiply that by 2 1/2 times for better dates (but not keys, those cost more).

    Around 2009, they fell off the wagon, with so-so common dates bringing $900, add $100 or $150 for a nice PCGS example with a sticker. The 2 1/2 time spread for better dates still is holding, except the better date coin which cost $3,800 in 2006 will cost $2,800 now.

    Very nice 6s which are considered shot coins can bring close to 7 money, but imo, you'll have an easier time being a Jew making a pilgrimage to Mecca than making a MS 66 Liberty Nickel into an MS 67. >>



    That last bit of yours will likely ruffle some feathers, I would bet. >>


    Nah, we are okay with that one. image
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That last bit of yours will likely ruffle some feathers, I would bet. >>



    Don't think so; I'm Jewish, myself. Otherwise, I wouldn't have written it. Making an MS 67 Liberty Nickel is da**ed near impossible. A number of dates have pop 1. Am not sure, but think a few don't have any of them.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • TahoeDaleTahoeDale Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
    Agree with all the comments re the lib nickels in MS or Proof 65 not going anywhere for at least 18 years.

    I completed a proof 65 to 67 set in 2000, and I think I lost money or broke even when they sold in 2006

    The only dates in the MS set that really did well( sold also in 2006) was the 1885 referred to by Mike Hayes, the 1883 with cents,
    both MS 67, and pop 2 and pop1 respectively, the 1902 in NGC 68( only 68 ever made by either service), and the 12-s in 66.

    All the others, MS 66 except one, brought only fair money, with little profit.

    DH has said on many occassions that this alloy for the Lib nickels makes it almost impossible to have a fully struck coin. And attempting a cross of an NGC 67 to PC at grade is as ElContador said,
    doing something that most reasonable collectors should avoid. I did it once in 11 years of trying. And never upgraded an pq 66 to 67.

    It was fun trying to assemble a high end MS set, but would not try it again.
    TahoeDale
  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All of which IMHO suggests the broader theme that many coins may be due for subsidance or settling if they are in mid-range price and demand. Can it happen gently or do there have to be some implosions along the way?
    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • erwindocerwindoc Posts: 4,925 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>DH has said on many occassions that this alloy for the Lib nickels makes it almost impossible to have a fully struck coin. And attempting a cross of an NGC 67 to PC at grade is as ElContador said,
    doing something that most reasonable collectors should avoid. I did it once in 11 years of trying. And never upgraded an pq 66 to 67.

    It was fun trying to assemble a high end MS set, but would not try it again. >>



    Ive been working on a set with the focus being on strike. There are so many weakly struck coins out there that its now getting pretty tough to find ones to fill the holes with and not break the bank.
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    [qIve been working on a set with the focus being on strike. There are so many weakly struck coins out there that its now getting pretty tough to find ones to fill the holes with and not break the bank. >>



    The typical weak points on the coin are star 7 on the obverse and the lt. corn on the reverse. Hair is often mushy on the 1911s, and 1912s from all mints, though this is not always the case. I have seen many other dates with soft stars (not just star 7) in MS 66.

    While I have seen fully struck coins of all dates and mintmarks, some are more scarce than others, and I have seen some fully struck coins which have splotchy toning and I would not want in my collection. If you want to collect attractive Liberty Nickels in any grade, you are going to pass on a number of coins before you find a nice one of a particular date, with the exception of the 1883 N/C.

    And there are some dates where I have not seen one coin (in MS 66) which I liked in all of the years I have been collecting them. The 1910 and 1892 come to mind.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."

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