1997 UD Football Legends

lahmejoon

Hi All,

I used to be in love with this set when it came out. I remember paying $5 per pack, which was quite a bit for a youngster to fork out at the time. I decided to take a look on ebay to see what autos were up for sale and noticed that Upper Deck made a college legends set with the same look as the '97 set (I don't follow newer product). That could be a fun rip for nostalgic reasons. Anyway. it got me thinking about unopened product on the '97 set. I haven't seen any boxes of the '97's in ages. So, I was curious as to what you guys thought:

1. How much of the unopened product is still left hiding out there (I have no clue if this was a "limited" production product)?
2. How much would a box go for today?
3. How many of the high-dollar SP autos were redemptions (i.e. would it even be worth pursuing a box if it came to market)?

Of course, since I started buying older product and adopted a non-rip policy, I don't think I'd have the guts to open a box if I got my hands on one. Anyway, I'm curious as to what the experts think about this set today.

Thanks!
Aaron

raiderscott

My LCS back in the day did pack wars every other month. We busted a box of Legends when it first came out. First round- squat for everybody. 2nd round- Lou Groza, Rocky Bleier redemption, and I hit a Dorsett. I believe the first Beckett pricing didn't know which autos were SP's as my Dorsett booked at $60 and squeaked by the Bleier for the sweep. Dorsett shot up in the coming months when it was confirmed as a SP. It's range on the bay seems to be low 200s to low 300s.

Walt

one of the greatest sets ever. I remember back in 2002 maybe 2003 these packs showed up at walmarts in repackaged blisters. They were a bargain even then for 8.99 pack. There are very few boxes left of this stuff, with the amount of high end autos available to pull expect to pay 400+ for a box. There were some redemptions in the product, and some of the big ones too.

I tought the 2012 product was kinda cool, they even inserted buy backs from 97 in the packs. I pulled a Ray Guy auto. Good Luck with your hunt

W

Fabfrank

This was my favorite product back in the day. This came out towards the tail end of the overproduction cycle that card companies were going through. Basically, product would come out and within 1 or 2 weeks, dealers were dumping it at shows, because they needed cash for the next new product. Boxes started out at $30, and got as cheap as $15. There were 4 autos per box, but you had the dreaded redemption autos. Many of the redemptions were fulfilled, but those that weren't, were replaced with another player.
The answer Lahmejoons questions:
#1 It wasn't a limited production run. But once the prices of boxes bottomed, they quickly began to rise. Collectors started seeing the value of getting 4 autos per box with a good shot at getting a HOF'er. There is not a lot of unopened product out there.
#2 Walt was correct. Boxes go for $00+ when available.
#3 Forget buying a box to hit a hi dollar SP. Just buy the SP card when it comes up on Ebay.

The Upper Deck college legends is a great take on the classic 97 Legends design.

Raiderscott- If you still have that 97 Legends Dorsett, I would pay $250 for that card. (I need to upgrade mine)

I have the complete auto set on the Registry with a few pics. You can check it out here:
Fabfranks 97 Legends Autograph set

cardsnbeads

The one that started my obsession.
Love that set. I had almost the whole set. Wonderful set. I love the Marion Motley and Leo Nomellini certifieds which happen to be their only certifieds. The 1997 Legends started my obsession
with certified autographs of stars and hall of famers. Since the 1997 Legends set I have collected every hall of famer and star in Football , Basketball, and Hockey . I collect Baseball as well although my baseball collection is not as vast the 3 other sports.

skinnyjh

<< <i>2. How much would a box go for today?
>>



Box today

lahmejoon

Wow, $600 per box. It looks like they have the retail for $220, which makes the price per auto $110 versus the $150 on the hobby version. I love this set, but can't imagine dropping that kind of cash to get some common autos.

Thanks for all of the replies!

raiderscott

Fabfrank- thanks for the strong offer, but even though I'm not a Dorsett nor a Cowboys fan- that card holds sentimental value.

Fabfrank

thanks for the strong offer, but even though I'm not a Dorsett nor a Cowboys fan- that card holds sentimental value.

No problem. PM sent though

stown

I think, but could be mistaken, that Matt (aka lawnmowerman) worked this set. Shoot him a PM.

Futureman

This is my favorite set. I don't have the main SPs (Dorsett, Staubach, and Montana are the three bigger cards in my "set"), but it's about as close to complete as I will get. I think there's a lot of interesting back stories around the set. The novelty of the entire autograph set, the redemptions, and the checklist all make the set unique.

I was waiting to comment on this thread because of some auctions ending last night. I had my eye on some old redemption cards that were on ebay last night. These used to go for less than $10 if they got a bid at all. Now the unsigned Jack Kemp (a semi-SP) redemption went for $100. (I didn't win any of the redemption cards auctioned last night.)

Beckett ran a feature on the set in the February 2008 issue. Frank was quoted in it; it looks like you've completed you set since then, Frank. Congrats!

The cards were sent out to the players, and then supposed to be sent back to Upper Deck. Some of the cards weren't returned. Sid Luckman died before he could return his cards (that would be a great card!). Mike Webster signed all of them, but gave them out to friends and associates, rather than return them to UD. There was a poster on these boards that had the only signed Russ Francis card I'd ever seen. Francis either signed one of the authenticated cards for a friend and gave it out, or someone brought him an authenticated card and had him sign it.

Donnie Shell signed some of them, though I've seen speculation he only signed about 1/3 of the cards sent to him. The rest are the "Mrs. Shell' variation, which were allegedly signed by his wife. The way to see the difference is in the "D". Donnie's actual signature has a very triangular-looking "D". The "Mrs. Shell' variation has a loopy appearance, and for lack of a better description, it looks like a "girl's" handwriting. (You'll know it when you see it.)

There are actual variations such as the Jim Otto and Dwight Stephenson cards which signed in both black and blue marker. Depending how far you want to take the word "variation" there were some Lou Groza cards where he included his nickname "The Toe", and others where he just signed his name. Terry Metcalf included his jersey number (21) on some of the cards, and not on others. I don't know which "styles" are more common on these.

There are also some players that signed most cards in one place, whether it was on the left vs. the right (Chuck Bednarik), but signed some on the other side for some of the cards, or signed differently with their name in a straight line like:
"Firstname Lastname"

and others (Ron Mix, Roger Craig) were stacked:
"Firstname
Lastname"

The great photography holds a lot of the appeal of the set too. There are some really classic shots in the set. Jim Marshall and Lynn Dickey are in the snow on their cards. Marion Motley and Otto Graham in black and white photos, running around in old-time helmets. Joe Montana on the phone. A car on the field in the background of the Franco Harris card. Y.A. Tittle crouched in the dirt on the sidelines, warming his hands over a metal bucket. I could say something positive about every card.

When there were cards "added" to the set in 2008, I think UD got away from the great photography. The pictures were too similar; usually a picture from the waist or knees up, without anything distinctive going on (elements like mud or snow), not much action, or an image of any other player. Even the smaller inset shots along the border were just close up head-shots of the main picture on the card. This improved a little bit in 2009, and then in the college (football and basketball), and hockey sets, which have recently been released. As a hockey fan, I'm a fan of the hockey set, and it shares some of the same qualities of old pictures of legends playing the game.

In the new set there are some of the same elements as the original 97 set, with variations (Randall Cunningham signed in black and blue), and redemptions. Some of the redemption cards were never fulfilled. Lawrence Taylor was part of the original checklist, but had legal trouble, which I suspect is the reason his cards never made it to the market. There are some super SPs in the set, which are pretty scarce, since the cards were 1 per case to begin with.

The Beckett article had a UD source quoted as saying some of the SPs in the original set had fewer than 10 of the cards. All of the "Sign of the Times" inserts have fewer than 100 cards per player. The article mentions how the set was only possible due to favorable signing fees at a time before they really escalated, and UD was able to get a package deal with members of the NFL Alumni group.

The eleven "big ones" when it comes to SPs are: 1. Bart Starr; 2. Jim Brown; 3. Joe Namath; 4. Walter Payton; 5. Terry Bradshaw; 6. Franco Harris; 9. Johnny Unitas; 11. Roger Staubach; 12. Tony Dorsett; 17. Dick Butkus; and 178 Joe Montana. Of those, the Starr, Brown, Namath, Payton, Bradshaw, Unitas, and Butkus seem to be on their own tier. The SPs in the additions to the set took some of the guesswork out of finding out which ones they were, because UD released the insert rate for the different "classes" with a list of who was in each group (A, B, C ...).

There are some others that seem like they are more in the middle of the pack in terms of scarcity. They aren't in the "white whale" class, but don't show up as often as Bill Bergey. They include Nitschke, Alworth, Csonka, Bubba Smith, Art Shell, among others.

The set seems to be getting harder to put together. It's been out for 15 years, and held up in terms of popularity -- it has probably grown in popularity considering its start. More of the cards are ending up in private collections, and the prices keep going up. It's a great set. If you aren't going to put together the whole thing, get one or two (or more) examples of players you like. While I was still putting together my set all the research and pursuit of the different cards was a lot of fun, and I am still happy with it.

GDM67

It's a gorgeous set. I have raws of Charlie Joiner and Paul Warfield and they're well regarded parts of my collection.

KLS23

Futureman,

Nicely done on the write-up! I sold the only Francis authenticated card a few years back....had several offers for $2K+. There is a picture of it in a Beckett article along with quotes from a few of us from the boards. Upon selling the card I was actually contacted by Mr. Francis who was kind enough to converse with me via e-mail for a month or two and eventually signed a mini-helmet for free that had Steve Grogan on the other side. It's one of my favorite pieces in my collection because he was just a kind and generous person in our conversations. Sounded like he was enjoying his retirement at the time, helping to prepare and train college TE's for the draft.

He did mention that he vaguely remembered getting the cards from UD, but did not usually sign stuff like that and that he may have kept one or two to sign for his close friends. That's about all I could get out of him about the 1997 UD Legends card. It would be cool if another one popped up someday as I know a few hardcore collectors of this set that would love to have it and I don't think it would drive down the value of the one I sold.

Ken

Walt

great info Futureman! Is there anywhere that has a list of the redemptions? I would love to know who is in there as a real card before I spend 530 bucks on a box.

Thanks
Waalt

Fabfrank

Ken- Good to see you post. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you find the Francis card in a $5 box at a show? I seem to remember that was the story.

Walt- I would advise against buying the box. You would basically be paying $530 for 4 autos, in which 1 is most likely a redemption. That's about $130 per auto (if they are all signed) and most likely going to be common ones. You can get common, raw Legends autos on Ebay for $20-$40. Even graded PSA 7's and 8's will run you slightly higher. At $30 a piece you can get 18 raw auto cards for the price of the box. That's the way I would go.
BTW, if you are interested in the base set, I have a few for sale. PM me.

Futureman- great write up. Some of what you said sounded familiar. Was that from the article?
What I find great about this set, is that it really has something for every football fan. Great autos, a substantial amount of HOF'ers, modern players who were in their prime at the time, an easy to complete base set, great photography that really captured the essence of each player and the time that they played. It also introduces current collectors to some of the early stars of the game. That's what really started me into researching and than pursuing the vintage sets that I collect (Leaf, Bowman and Philly football)

tugboat2648

I certainly agree that its the greatest autograph set ever produced (I am huge fan of the 2005 Topps All American set as well). The Ray Nitschke and Crazylegs Hirsch autos from this set are two of my favorite cards in my collection.

To add a tiny bit to Futureman's great post, a strange thing occurred to me a few months ago when I sent in a rookie card to James Lofton to get signed (along with 15.00) When he sent it back he also included his 1997 UD Legends card which he autographed in black (not blue) sharpie along with 'HOF '03' and '2012' inscriptions. What was odd was that the card had the certification back. He must have a stack of them still which he never sent back to UD and now sends out with TTM responses 15 years later.

Futureman

Thanks for the compliments. This really is my favorite set, and I spent years putting together what I have (like anyone who makes the attempt). All the history and peculiarities of the set added to my fascination with the set. This topic will come up every few years, and I like to make a post or see if anyone else has any new information. Like most valuable collectibles, this set was initially overlooked. There are SPs in the set, and specific cards with a low print run, but it feels different than something with manufactured scarcity (such as Exquisite). It's similar to the 1996-97 Topps Chrome basketball, where most collectors didn't know what it was, and didn't bother with it. As others have noted, and is mentioned in the Beckett story, the boxes were on deep discount, along with the SPs if you could find them. Once people realized it, prices took off. When I go to shows and ask dealers if they have any, the usually reply that they don't, but they know what I'm talking about, and say it's a great set.

Ken, that's a cool story. It's been 15 years now, and it was such a unique set, I wonder about all the specifics around it. How were players included who weren't interested in signing? I know the players aren't fanatic to the level some of us are when it comes to this set. It would be the equivalent of someone asking us about a water bill mailed in when the world was still connecting to the internet with dial-up. I'd be surprised if any of them have much recollection of it at all.

Walt, I agree with Frank: don't buy a box. Now, I know we're all here because we enjoy opening packs to some extent. Like most sets, unless you are incredibly lucky, it's more economical to buy the card you want, rather than chase it in packs. This is especially true when it comes to expensive boxes, such as the 1997 Legends. Of course there isn't the same rush, but the odds are against you. Significantly. If money is no object, and you're a fan of the set, then buying a box to open would be a lot of fun. Finding a box to open would be on the level with finding one of the main SPs. If one is a collector of unopened product, the 1997 Legends is going to be one of the few modern boxes that is worth hanging on to and leaving it unopened.

To answer your question about redemptions: I am not sure who all had redemptions, other than the ones I have seen. I know I saw a Unitas redemption about 10 years ago. I remember the seller on Ebay listing in his write up that he had already sent one redemption to Upper Deck, and was able to get the autograph back. He said he had contacted UD, and they told them they could fill it. He wouldn't send it in, because he didn't think they would fill a second expired one for him. How much of that is true? It doesn't really add up for me, but he was selling a Unitas redemption, so that's at least one of the big ones.

There were some of the cards with the authentication on the back, but no signature. It's my understanding that these could be sent back to UD as a redemption. This is how some unsigned, but "authentic" cards of Fred Dean made it to the secondary market. There's nothing to stop someone from going to a show and having the player sign it. There is at least one Walter Payton that I have seen that appeared to be a forgery. It's in black pen, and is distinctly different from his usual signature. There is an example of it in the February '08 Beckett. I have also seen it on ebay. I looked through the completed auctions and saw a Namath. It didn't look quite right, so it didn't pass the blink test, but maybe I'm too cynical. There may have been some that had autographs and redemptions released in packs. The redemptions typically had a sticker on the front of the card (there are some completed auctions on ebay) with instructions about how to redeem the card, and a hole drilled through the card. I believe the hole in the card was to prevent people from peeling off the sticker and forging a signature.

As I noted, some of the unredeemed redemption cards have become popular with set collectors. I'm confident a Sid Luckman redemption would get a good price. I've only seen one Billy "White Shoes" Johnson redemption on ebay and I remember it selling for what I thought was a high price. I remember seeing an Art Donovan redemption. I pulled a Bill Bergey in the one pack of it I bought at a card show, so I can say he wasn't a redemption. If you want one of the SPs, be patient, and buy the card you want. One of the main SPs could run in the $1,500+ range (Unitas, Payton, Brown). You might be able to find one of the living players (Bradshaw, Butkus, Starr, Namath) in the $700-$1,000 range. The Csonka, Dorsett, Staubach, or Montana could probably be found in the $200-$400 range. Possibly less. It will take time, because these don't show up very often. If you were to buy four boxes, I still would not like your chances of pulling one of the SPs. The best way to do it if you want a specific card is to be patient and buy the card you want. There's currently a set on ebay with some of the SPs, but it's still missing four of the "big ones".

Frank, I still have the February 2008 Beckett, and read it again before I posted. The part I noted was all I took from the article. Some of the information that I have also appeared in the article, but that's a case of the information about the set being relatively well-known. I agree with you about about how the set brings fans closer to the history of the game. I knew some of the players from watching NFL Films while I was growing up. I really liked being able to get autographs of guys like Otto Graham, and Marion Motley.

tugboat2648, thanks for that information about James Lofton. It's interesting. Can you post a scan? How long ago did you send it to him? If he included a "2012" inscription, it was in the last year, right?

A few years ago the same seller was listing Mike Webster autographs one after another. I bought one from him, and asked about how he got them. He said he was selling the cards for a friend of Webster. As far as he knew, Webster always intended to send them back to UD, but procrastination must have led to him missing the deadline. Knowing what we know now about head injuries, maybe that had something to do with it. It's funny that there are Websters being released in UD packs now as buybacks.

tugboat2648

Someday this set is going to be like the football equivalent of the t206 with all sorts of research being done to piece together what was released and in what form(s) and with new variations being found all the time (though admittedly without the million dollar card in there).

Anyways, heres a scan of my Loftons- the top images pictured is the card I received back from him, the bottom one (in the top loader) is the pack pulled card. As far as I can tell there is no difference between the card itself besides the signature- so Im assuming that he sent back a freshly signed certified version. To answer your question Futureman, it was this year- I sent the card to Lofton February 28, 2012 and received it back 9 days later



Alex

Futureman

tugboat2648, thanks for posting the photo. That is a very cool item! Good observation and comparison to the T206 set. As for the million dollar card, don't rule out the Payton or Unitas ... OK, so maybe that's stretching it. Still, it's a great, historic set.

KLS23

Frank,

Embarassed to say that I did get the Francis out of a $5 box of "commons". Since it was mentioned, here is the Luckman from my collection:

Sid Luckman Redemption

Ken

KLS23

Link to an authenticated Fred Dean that sold last year for $400:

Fred Dean 97 Legends

I am fairly sure that's the only one I have ever seen.

Ken

goraiders

I know one of the better posters this board had,Mike[shouldabeena10] had a big
part of this set done and aolt of info he shared with me as I once tried to put this beauty of
a set together myself.I still have sme he sold/traded and will one day try and do it again.

Fabfrank

Hi Ken- I still amazed that you found that card in a $5 box. It still makes me wonder if it was pulled from a pack or not. As for the F. Dean, I have one in my set, and have seen a few pop up on Ebay over the last few years. At least 3 (including mine).
As for the Luckman redemption, I know I have at least 1 and a few of the other unmailed redemptions buried in my collection. I just have to find the box that has them

Fabfrank

Goraiders- I bought some of my upgrades from Mike as well as shared info with him regarding this set. Great guy and a great person to deal with.

KLS23

Hey Frank,

If you find those other tough unmailed redemption cards, scan them and add them to the thread. Would love to see them! Motivation to try and pick up a couple more of the fringe cards.

Ken

Fabfrank

I don't remember if someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, but there is 1997 Legends set break on Ebay right now. Most are graded, some are raw. I missed out on the Jim Borwn
Many of the other cards are still there. Some of the big names are gone, but I believe the Bart Starr is still available, plus a few other SP's. The seller is bravepuppyauctions. Nice guy and I've dealt with him before.

Futureman

Thanks for posting the Luckman redemption card, Ken.

Frank and Ken, I have my doubts that the Francis or Dean ever made it into packs. I think an authenticated card made it into a pack, or to the player, and then would have been signed in person. Most likely authentic, and added "cool" factor since it's on an authenticated card that was never released. I remember an authenticated card with no signature of someone or other popping up every other year or so. Like most of the set, it wouldn't get much interest. Now they go for a good amount.

I thought this thread might have an appearance from shouldabeenaten. Mike is a great guy, he helped me with the set, and shared a lot of knowledge.

Thanks for the notice on the set break up, Frank. I don't think I will be bidding on anything, but I always like to see how they sell. I don't typically search for anything but auctions. I think the nature of ebay might make it harder to put together the set too. I think it's much harder to find a steal on many of the cards. Most people have an idea of what they have, and will list it with a high BIN, and look for offers instead of letting an auction go.

thefootballcardstore

Yes thanks for the heads-up Frank!
Looks like still plenty of good autos at reasonable prices. $14.98 for some of the base cards, would cost that just to have them graded.


Listings

But I'm a little bias . . .

Jeremy aka bravepuppyauctions

Jrthurmer

This is the greatest set out there.

http://s975.photobucket.com/albums/ae238/jrthurmerhighendfootball/Personal Collection/1997 Upper Deck Legends/

Im just looking to upgrade my set and pick up more redemptions. I wasn't even intrested in the redemptions until I bought 6 packs and pulled the Billy "White Shoes" Johnson Redemption. I also have the SOTT 10 card set from the 1997 legends as well.

Jrthurmer

Here are the 9 redemptions I have

Fabfrank

Love those redemptions. Any pics of the SOTT cards?

goraiders

Nice Like the Otto for some reason.

Jrthurmer

Fabfrank

WOW! Those SOTT cards are awesome. I still need the Payton and Starr for my set. Congrats on some great cards!

Nascar360

Great info guys, what a great set!

cardsnbeads

Anyone have a Mike Webster 1997 Legends Autograph with Blue Sharpie residue on the back? What is up with those. I bought one for $30 maybe 8 years ago and sold it for about $100. Didn't know that about the Donnie Shell's . It is Errict Rhett 1994 Signature Rookies all over again

Walt

wow, thought I had seen all the cards from this set, I guess not. Thanks for the pics!

W

Futureman

Nice cards, Jrthurmer

cardsnbeads, yes, many of the Mike Webster cards have some blue ink on the back. I bought one of mine from someone who listed a good amount of them, and he said all of his were like that. He suspected Webster had some ink on his fingers, and when he handled the cards left the fingerprints on the back.

TheThrill22

Very nice pieces.

Jrthurmer

Picked up these 2 and I have a Randy White incoming

Jrthurmer

For anyone who has a dorsett from this set. I finally found one without a huge ding on the top right corner of the card. I think I have owned 5 or 6 of this card and everyone that I have owned up till this one has had it it looked like whoever was handling the stack for upper deck dropped them because it was the same ding on every card. I was just wondering for those of you who have them if the top right corner is dinged on your card.

raiderscott

I have a Dorsett- no ding.

Fabfrank

I just sent one in for grading. No ding, but it's probably an 8. The one in my collection has a corner ding (different corner), but it's because the seller (and board member) confided in me that he had accidentally dropped the card
I bought it from him knowing this, but whenever I mention the card, he cringes at the memory

Jrthurmer

Took me 5 or 6 different cards to get this.
The grades on other cards ranged from 7.5 to 8.5

Last I looked this is the only BGS 9

Fabfrank

Very Nice. Just curious, are you building the set in BGS holders? Or are you just trying to buy the best card possible, regardless of holder?

Jrthurmer

I have the whole set BGS 9 or Better with 10 auto's on all but 3 cards (Jack Youngblood, Floyd Little, and Tom Jackson), I do have a Fred Dean auto that is JSA certified that graded 8.5 with a 10 auto and I have a Dean Card that has the COA on the back of the card with No Autograph That is Mint But only way I will take it out of the case is if I am there to have him sign in person

Jrthurmer

Build the set in BGS holders Ive bought some PSA and broken them out and submitted them and a few SCG or SGC which ever it is.

Jrthurmer

Is anyone here doing the College legends set from 2011? Or the Hockey or Basketball?

I am 2 away from the college legends set. only the Michael Jordan away from the basketball, and like 4 or 5 away from the hockey.

Mostly into Football but how can a guy not like these

halosfan

Those are nice!

Fabfrank

Didn't know Upper Deck did a 97 Legends style card for hockey. Those are sweet!

hockeycrazy

Wow! I also was not aware of the hockey legends set. Those examples you posted are awesome!