<< <i>I don't believe PWCC does. I won a recent auction he had for the 1976 Brett PSA 9 and my high bid was 10% higher than what I won it for. There was an opportunity to shill that and it did not happen. >>
I got a great deal on a very nice card. I dont see them shilling either. >>
Rather than always emphasizing the negative, we should be pointing out the positive and honest ones. >>
Last night I won a '33 Goudey PSA 5 HOF for $55.55 which could be an all time record low for any HOF from that set. PWCC dosen't shill his auctions.
Pointing out another positive - I've won lots in the past from Brockelman and Luckey for less than my max bid as well (I feel like I missed the last couple auctions though - more e-mail reminders please?)
I don't think people are worried so much about PWCC (Brent) or Rick Probstein shilling their own auctions, but rather the oringinal consignors shilling the cards they send to PWCC or Probstein.
MattyC, when commenting on shilling you asked, "What's the beef?" Well, the beef, or my beef, is that shill bids cost us collectors money. You may still win the item when someone shill bids against you, but you will pay more that you would have without the shill bidder. While it may only be a few bucks here and there, it can add up. It might cost someone hundreds, if not thousands, over a collecting year. You have the freedom to not care about wasted money, but I'd prefer to be concerned. I won't lose sleep over it, but shilling flat out sucks.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I don't think people are worried so much about PWCC (Brent) or Rick Probstein shilling their own auctions, but rather the oringinal consignors shilling the cards they send to PWCC or Probstein.
MattyC, when commenting on shilling you asked, "What's the beef?" Well, the beef, or my beef, is that shill bids cost us collectors money. You may still win the item when someone shill bids against you, but you will pay more that you would have without the shill bidder. While it may only be a few bucks here and there, it can add up. It might cost someone hundreds, if not thousands, over a collecting year. You have the freedom to not care about wasted money, but I'd prefer to be concerned. I won't lose sleep over it, but shilling flat out sucks. >>
I HAVE read this thread in it's entirety, and I must say, I have lost a little respect for some of our board members. I am not going to call them out because I know you know who you are, the ones that have come off a little too personal.
I agree with CW's last post regarding "What's the beef", but there is no solution. If there was one, somebody would have pointed it out by now. And because there is no solution, that makes this subject no different from talking religion or politics, nobody is going to change their minds.
So personally, I would like to see this thread die!
Just to be clear, I in no way like to waste loot, and I abhor shilling as much as the next guy. But I think Cocoa nailed my sentiment in his post.
All I'm saying is: we all know it exists, though how rampant is unknowable in fact and up for debate--for those who like to debate such things. I'd personally rather not debate topics I see as unsolvable other than by bidding what one is comfortable paying. So it seems moot to me and just an exercise in negative energy. Yes, shilling sucks-- massively. But we can never, ever truly quantify what it costs each of us, so to beef in depth about it beyond saying it simply sucks seems like energy misspent. I only like to hunt what I can kill and eat, in other words. Or to paraphrase Bob Marley, I believe: it's a foolish dog that barks at a flying bird. I guess I'd just much rather see these boards dominated by content that focuses at least as much on cards, i.e., passionate collectors shining a light on their favorite issues, discussions about great cards up for auction, etc.
Go to a card show and buy what you like, Oh thats right with all this good publicity about the hobby there are only a handful of shows left, Thanks for all the greed and corruption guys.
Someone got seriously pimpslapped with their own thingy yet didn't issue a retraction or apology.
Sweet.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Shills, or potted plants, are sometimes employed in auctions. Driving prices up with phony bids, they seek to provoke a bidding war among other participants. Often they are told by the seller precisely how high to bid, as the seller actually pays the price (to himself, of course) if the item does not sell, losing only the auction fees. Shilling has a substantially higher rate of occurrence in online auctions, where any user with multiple accounts can bid on their own items. >>
Oh, I get it. ebay is wher all the shilling happens. True dat. freakzzoids come on an wind me up.
This thread is hilarious. Bubblebutt taking shillers to task, MattyC with his head in the sand, & Leon defending auction houses. Yo Leon, I see you left that one AH down the road from you off your list.
This is gettin weird, the world must be ending next week
<< <i>This thread is hilarious. Bubblebutt taking shillers to task, MattyC with his head in the sand, & Leon defending auction houses. Yo Leon, I see you left that one AH down the road from you off your list.
This is gettin weird, the world must be ending next week >>
I never defended auction houses mr.anonymous. I said I thought there was less shill bidding there than ebay (currently) but I have no definitive proof. No doubt in my mind that shilling still goes on in both places, in some form or fashion. I have been on the record, on the other chat board, expressing my disapproval of that AH's bidding practices. I don't think AHs should bid in their own auctions under any circumstance. Now you know how I feel. Say what you want to.
One other thing to add. Someone mentioned that AH's can see up to or max bids. That is not always the case. REA and my little auction house B-L Auctions (and some others, probably), can not see up to or max bids by design of the s/w. I have never seen a max bid in one of our auctions nor do I ever want to. There is no need to. We also have what I believe to be the only written rule for auditing our bidding records. If someone has an issue and thinks there is a problem with bidding on an item, at their expense, they can have a 3rd party audit our bidding records. It's in our rules..We have taken a proactive approach to this whole issue. Please accept my apology for the slight advertising but it goes to the subject of this thread. ..From our Market Strategy page-
"Brockelman and Luckey Auctions keeps all bidding records in perpetuity. If an issue ever arises they can be audited. All BIDDING RECORDS WILL REMAIN CONFIDENTIAL UNLESS THERE IS AN ISSUE. If a record is disclosed it will only be made known to 3rd party sources for verification of the process and to ensure the integrity of the auction process. We want bidders and consignors to have 100% confidence in our process and these UNIQUE rules, we believe, will further that experience. Brockelman and Luckey Auctions will not alter any cards, or other items, in any way nor will we ever send them to have anything other than authentication done to them. We feel there is more to lose than to gain in this area of the hobby."
Shills, or potted plants, are sometimes employed in auctions. Driving prices up with phony bids, they seek to provoke a bidding war among other participants. Often they are told by the seller precisely how high to bid, as the seller actually pays the price (to himself, of course) if the item does not sell, losing only the auction fees. Shilling has a substantially higher rate of occurrence in online auctions, where any user with multiple accounts can bid on their own items. >>
Sort of right, well mostly right, but just to clarify a bit:
A safety bid is a bid arranged by the seller to guarantee an item reaches at least some minimum the seller is willing to get. IOW, a reserve without using the reserve. It can take the form of a "Seed" bid to get the ball rolling, or if the seller begins to panic because his item is at 10% of VCP two days before hammer time, or because they just don't want to pay for a reserve. A true "shill" bid is one designed to push other bidders to their max, and generally is seen occurring as an auction reaches the end as opposed to the safety bid happening nearer the beginning.
Both are designed to artificially impact an auction and are considered unethical if not illegal.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
Shilling isn't just placing bids. It's also all the obvious and not so obvious posts you see in the wrong forums of message boards by sellers and consignors trying to promote their items. Some posts are direct to the point with no regard for the forum rules, while others find more creative ways to get you to look at their listings. While some wouldn't attempt to promote items they're selling themselves, if they consign it to somebody else to sell for them then suddenly it's okay to promote somebody elses's listings.
<< <i>Shilling isn't just placing bids. It's also all the obvious and not so obvious posts you see in the wrong forums of message boards by sellers and consignors trying to promote their items. Some posts are direct to the point with no regard for the forum rules, while others find more creative ways to get you to look at their listings. While some wouldn't attempt to promote items they're selling themselves, if they consign it to somebody else to sell for them then suddenly it's okay to promote somebody elses's listings. >>
Good point.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>Sort of right, well mostly right, but just to clarify a bit:
A safety bid is a bid arranged by the seller to guarantee an item reaches at least some minimum the seller is willing to get. IOW, a reserve without using the reserve. It can take the form of a "Seed" bid to get the ball rolling, or if the seller begins to panic because his item is at 10% of VCP two days before hammer time, or because they just don't want to pay for a reserve. A true "shill" bid is one designed to push other bidders to their max, and generally is seen occurring as an auction reaches the end as opposed to the safety bid happening nearer the beginning. >>
I honestly didn't know "safety bid" was a real term. I thought it was a CU forum term only.
'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.' -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
<< <i>Shilling isn't just placing bids. It's also all the obvious and not so obvious posts you see in the wrong forums of message boards by sellers and consignors trying to promote their items. Some posts are direct to the point with no regard for the forum rules, while others find more creative ways to get you to look at their listings. While some wouldn't attempt to promote items they're selling themselves, if they consign it to somebody else to sell for them then suddenly it's okay to promote somebody elses's listings. >>
Good point. >>
I think you guys are confusing shilling (which is unethical if not illegal) with spamming (which is annoying).
The vast majority of collectors have confidence in the auction house bidding format. It's really a bit disingenuous to suggest otherwise because of your bias against them.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You keep saying that transparency/knowing bidder names will remedy this shilling epidemic.
But what about these two points:
1. Some bidders prefer privacy/anonymity. 2. Assume names are known; how does that stop KNOWN PERSON X from placing a shill bid on ITEM Y from CONSIGNOR Z?
I honestly don't see how either invisible or visible impacts shilling, unless maybe there's an angle I'm missing, which is definitely possible.
Say I consign an item to an AH or even ebay hypothetically using a 100% "visible" bidding system.
Now say I get my friend JON SATURN to lob in a shill bid.
How did visible or invisible inhibit the shilling? I just don't see how it can be stopped.
I also think there is so much pricing history in play now, that even in a hypothetical case where there was zero shilling, genuine collectors would use the past history (even if those prices were bloated by past shills) as a gauge and the bids would still wind up where they would have been, had a consignor/shiller lobbed in a "safety" bid. So in the end isn't it utterly moot?
Youre hyperbole is really becoming rather ridiculous now...I understand what your opinion of auction houses is, as do most other members on this forum, but you are beating the proverbial dead horse here, and trying to impose your viewpoint upon others which is rather presumptuous. There is no "rationalization" here as you mistakenly put it. But I've noticed lately that when others disagree with your viewpoint on a particular topic, you dismiss or diminish the opposing opinion because it doesn't correspond with your own, which is really rather narrowminded. As I said in an earlier post, there are many seasoned and experienced collectors out there who enjoy participating in auction house listings. For you to summarily discount that venue because you don't like the private bidding format or believe those who run these auction houses are inherently dishonest, is really off base, too, as truthfully, you really don't have the experience to even back up your claims.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So Tim, instead of attacking me for my POV I suggest you look more closely at yours and try to explain why it actually might make sense other than "it's fine because I do it."
You are overlooking a fundamental difference here, however--no one here is attacking you for your POV--rather it is you who have been harping on the auction houses and how they are fraught with dishonesty and unethical behaviorial practices. We get it--you don't trust auction houses--but with every post in this thread (and others) you continue to feel the need to get up on your soapbox and pontificate to the masses your enlightened viewpoint. I'm being somewhat facetious with that last statement, but such lecturing really does get a bit tireseome after a while, no offense.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>If you want bidders to have confidence let them know who is bidding. >>
Large auction houses have client lists that include "rare air" individuals. This is a pretty small group of people, but Pareto comes into play and a significant part of their business comes from this small pool. The house listens very carefully to what these bidders want. They obviously have confidence in the auction house or they wouldn't be clients. They obviously don't want public bidding or it would exist. I know a few will not use eBay as they feel it is gamed more than auctions or they simply want privacy. These are pretty financially successful individuals, not part of the 47%. I certainly would not label them as naive.
Basically, their important bidders have confidence with the current system. It is as simple as that. Not saying it is right or wrong, just a fact.
There are things as a bidder/buyer that you cannot contol and one of these is whether a seller has shill bidding going on. Whether it be on eBay or an auction house, there are no quarantees that this practice will not occur. So what can you do to protect yourself? I have shared this several times on the board and still take this approach. 1. Deal with sellers that you have the most confidence in ...in terms of their running fair auctions whether it be on eBay or auction houses. 2. Bid only what you are comfortable paying for an item. If you win you should feel that you got something you wanted at a price you were willing to pay. There is certainly a chance that you might have paid more than you needed to if there was shilling going on but at least you stayed within your price range. Shill bidding obviously encourages higher bids so don't get into a bidding war that takes you beyond what your original limit was.
There are many very honest sellers of sports collectibles that you can deal with so I don't feel that it is fair to even hint that "every" seller shills their auctions as the question was posed. A week ago I won four lots from a major auction house with the opening and only bid. I got these cards for less than they typically sell on eBay, even with the 20% commission. I can guarantee that there was no shill betting taking place on these items. I also won a half dozen eBay auctions in the past week for considerably less than the bid I placed, at far less than what these cards typically sell for. I can't believe that these sellers shilled their auctions or they wouldn't have let the cards go for what the final price was. Quite frankly, many eBay sellers have moved to BINs for their items just because they cannot confidently predict their items will sell for their value in the auction format and perhaps they do not want to involve themselves in any unethical practice such as shill bidding.
I have personally sold several thousand PSA cards on eBay and can guarantee you that there has never been a shill bid that I am aware of.
It is prudent to be knowledgeable and careful when laying your money out and deal with those you trust. Most of the cards you want will show up at a future auction, perhaps with a seller you can be comfortable with.
<< <i>Is bidding up an item so someone else has to pay the same as you did shilling? >>
absolutely >>
I don't see how that could be. You run the risk of winning an auction that you didn't want to so you're just another bidder in my opinion. >>
If it's your auction, or if you're doing to help the seller, with the hope that you DON'T end up with the item it's definitely shilling. ANY bid that is designed solely to raise the final price is shilling.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
If it's your auction, or if you're doing to help the seller, with the hope that you DON'T end up with the item it's definitely shilling. ANY bid that is designed solely to raise the final price is shilling.
If it is your own auction then obviously that is shilling. However, if you plan to pay for the auction if you win the card then it is not shilling regardless of your intent.
<< <i>If it's your auction, or if you're doing to help the seller, with the hope that you DON'T end up with the item it's definitely shilling. ANY bid that is designed solely to raise the final price is shilling.
If it is your own auction then obviously that is shilling. However, if you plan to pay for the auction if you win the card then it is not shilling regardless of your intent.
Robb >>
I am glad to hear this, as there have been several times in the past I have increased my bid solely out of spite. "You won't let me get ANY of the cards I want in this set break? Fine, ya big jerk. I don't really need this one, but here's an extra $25 that YOU'RE gonna have to pay for it!" Not proud of it, but I've done it.
'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.' -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
<< <i>If it's your auction, or if you're doing to help the seller, with the hope that you DON'T end up with the item it's definitely shilling. ANY bid that is designed solely to raise the final price is shilling.
If it is your own auction then obviously that is shilling. However, if you plan to pay for the auction if you win the card then it is not shilling regardless of your intent.
Robb >>
That doesn't matter in my definition, or in most definitions I've seen. If, for example, I'm working in cahoots with another seller to shill his auctions, it simply doesn't matter if I'm willing to pay or not. Being willing to pay if you "over shill" and no one outbids you is a simple cost of doing business if you're shilling. The intent to TRY and get another bidder to go higher than you is the core characteristic of shilling, NOT your willingness to eat the cost if you're high bidder.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i> I am glad to hear this, as there have been several times in the past I have increased my bid solely out of spite. "You won't let me get ANY of the cards I want in this set break? Fine, ya big jerk. I don't really need this one, but here's an extra $25 that YOU'RE gonna have to pay for it!" Not proud of it, but I've done it. >>
i thought i was spiteful, too. seems i get into snipe wars with a certain competitor who keeps kicking my ass.
so, i vowed to be more aggressive and take a few risks in hopes of landing some wins. who cares if the margins are microscopic?
well, i guess they do. my ass is getting kicked harder than ever.
"And I might be willing to bid 85-90% on a card I already own because I think it represents a decent value but don't really want. I don't consider any of that "shilling"."
Your first two examples are not shilling, but this certainly can be seen as shilling based on the reasoning you gave for placing the bid. You don't really want it. You already own the card and don't want to add another one to your stack, but you don't want to see it sell for below a certain amount because it would hurt the value of your card. So you place the 85-90% bid to try to force the sale to the buyer at a level that won't hurt the value of your card. It can backfire and you can end up winning the card, but don't try retracting your bid or trying to return the card for some made up reason.
Dictionary definitions of a shill. Your "publicizing or praise" is in the form of bid. Your self interest and profit is maintaining the value of the same card you already own. This isn't the evil horrific kind of shilling that goes on with consignors and auctioneers. It's softer and gentler like a safety bid.
shill
noun 1. a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others into participating, as at a gambling house, auction, confidence game, etc. 2. a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.
verb (used without object) 3. to work as a shill: He shills for a large casino. verb (used with object) 4.to advertise or promote (a product) as or in the manner of a huckster; hustle: He was hired to shill a new TV show.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't believe PWCC does. I won a recent auction he had for the 1976 Brett PSA 9 and my high bid was 10% higher than what I won it for. There was an opportunity to shill that and it did not happen. >>
I got a great deal on a very nice card. I dont see them shilling either. >>
Rather than always emphasizing the negative, we should be pointing out the positive and honest ones. >>
Last night I won a '33 Goudey PSA 5 HOF for $55.55 which could be an all time record low for any HOF from that set. PWCC dosen't shill his auctions.
Pointing out another positive - I've won lots in the past from Brockelman and Luckey for less than my max bid as well (I feel like I missed the last couple auctions though - more e-mail reminders please?)
<< <i>
<< <i> what can ebay or the collectors do to combat this problem? >>
Never bid more than you're comfortable paying. >>
Sometimes the right answer is just this simple.
I don't think people are worried so much about PWCC (Brent) or Rick Probstein shilling their own auctions, but rather the oringinal consignors shilling the cards they send to PWCC or Probstein.
MattyC, when commenting on shilling you asked, "What's the beef?" Well, the beef, or my beef, is that shill bids cost us collectors money. You may still win the item when someone shill bids against you, but you will pay more that you would have without the shill bidder. While it may only be a few bucks here and there, it can add up. It might cost someone hundreds, if not thousands, over a collecting year. You have the freedom to not care about wasted money, but I'd prefer to be concerned. I won't lose sleep over it, but shilling flat out sucks.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>>>> "PWCC dosen't shill his auctions."
I don't think people are worried so much about PWCC (Brent) or Rick Probstein shilling their own auctions, but rather the oringinal consignors shilling the cards they send to PWCC or Probstein.
MattyC, when commenting on shilling you asked, "What's the beef?" Well, the beef, or my beef, is that shill bids cost us collectors money. You may still win the item when someone shill bids against you, but you will pay more that you would have without the shill bidder. While it may only be a few bucks here and there, it can add up. It might cost someone hundreds, if not thousands, over a collecting year. You have the freedom to not care about wasted money, but I'd prefer to be concerned. I won't lose sleep over it, but shilling flat out sucks. >>
I HAVE read this thread in it's entirety, and I must say, I have lost a little respect for some of our board members. I am not going to call them out because I know you know who you are, the ones that have come off a little too personal.
I agree with CW's last post regarding "What's the beef", but there is no solution. If there was one, somebody would have pointed it out by now. And because there is no solution, that makes this subject no different from talking religion or politics, nobody is going to change their minds.
So personally, I would like to see this thread die!
Just to be clear, I in no way like to waste loot, and I abhor shilling as much as the next guy. But I think Cocoa nailed my sentiment in his post.
All I'm saying is: we all know it exists, though how rampant is unknowable in fact and up for debate--for those who like to debate such things. I'd personally rather not debate topics I see as unsolvable other than by bidding what one is comfortable paying. So it seems moot to me and just an exercise in negative energy. Yes, shilling sucks-- massively. But we can never, ever truly quantify what it costs each of us, so to beef in depth about it beyond saying it simply sucks seems like energy misspent. I only like to hunt what I can kill and eat, in other words. Or to paraphrase Bob Marley, I believe: it's a foolish dog that barks at a flying bird. I guess I'd just much rather see these boards dominated by content that focuses at least as much on cards, i.e., passionate collectors shining a light on their favorite issues, discussions about great cards up for auction, etc.
We should talk more about the fake PSA slabs and cards made in China.
<< <i>I can tell you from the prices I received that when I've consigned to big auction houses there was no shilling on my lots. >>
Isn't it because you are supposed to shill your own auctions once you send to an auction house or consignor?
Always plenty of PSA-graded cards in my ebay store -- https://ebay.com/str/thelumbercompanysportscards
Sweet.
<< <i>
<< <i>What is shilling? >>
It's a safety bid
Shills, or potted plants, are sometimes employed in auctions. Driving prices up with phony bids, they seek to provoke a bidding war among other participants. Often they are told by the seller precisely how high to bid, as the seller actually pays the price (to himself, of course) if the item does not sell, losing only the auction fees. Shilling has a substantially higher rate of occurrence in online auctions, where any user with multiple accounts can bid on their own items. >>
Oh, I get it. ebay is wher all the shilling happens. True dat. freakzzoids come on an wind me up.
This is gettin weird, the world must be ending next week
<< <i>This thread is hilarious. Bubblebutt taking shillers to task, MattyC with his head in the sand, & Leon defending auction houses. Yo Leon, I see you left that one AH down the road from you off your list.
This is gettin weird, the world must be ending next week >>
I never defended auction houses mr.anonymous. I said I thought there was less shill bidding there than ebay (currently) but I have no definitive proof. No doubt in my mind that shilling still goes on in both places, in some form or fashion. I have been on the record, on the other chat board, expressing my disapproval of that AH's bidding practices. I don't think AHs should bid in their own auctions under any circumstance. Now you know how I feel. Say what you want to.
One other thing to add. Someone mentioned that AH's can see up to or max bids. That is not always the case. REA and my little auction house B-L Auctions (and some others, probably), can not see up to or max bids by design of the s/w. I have never seen a max bid in one of our auctions nor do I ever want to. There is no need to. We also have what I believe to be the only written rule for auditing our bidding records. If someone has an issue and thinks there is a problem with bidding on an item, at their expense, they can have a 3rd party audit our bidding records. It's in our rules..We have taken a proactive approach to this whole issue. Please accept my apology for the slight advertising but it goes to the subject of this thread. ..From our Market Strategy page-
"Brockelman and Luckey Auctions keeps all bidding records in perpetuity. If an issue ever arises they can be audited. All BIDDING RECORDS WILL REMAIN CONFIDENTIAL UNLESS THERE IS AN ISSUE. If a record is disclosed it will only be made known to 3rd party sources for verification of the process and to ensure the integrity of the auction process. We want bidders and consignors to have 100% confidence in our process and these UNIQUE rules, we believe, will further that experience. Brockelman and Luckey Auctions will not alter any cards, or other items, in any way nor will we ever send them to have anything other than authentication done to them. We feel there is more to lose than to gain in this area of the hobby."
<< <i>
<< <i>What is shilling? >>
It's a safety bid
Shills, or potted plants, are sometimes employed in auctions. Driving prices up with phony bids, they seek to provoke a bidding war among other participants. Often they are told by the seller precisely how high to bid, as the seller actually pays the price (to himself, of course) if the item does not sell, losing only the auction fees. Shilling has a substantially higher rate of occurrence in online auctions, where any user with multiple accounts can bid on their own items. >>
Sort of right, well mostly right, but just to clarify a bit:
A safety bid is a bid arranged by the seller to guarantee an item reaches at least some minimum the seller is willing to get. IOW, a reserve without using the reserve. It can take the form of a "Seed" bid to get the ball rolling, or if the seller begins to panic because his item is at 10% of VCP two days before hammer time, or because they just don't want to pay for a reserve. A true "shill" bid is one designed to push other bidders to their max, and generally is seen occurring as an auction reaches the end as opposed to the safety bid happening nearer the beginning.
Both are designed to artificially impact an auction and are considered unethical if not illegal.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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<< <i>Shilling isn't just placing bids. It's also all the obvious and not so obvious posts you see in the wrong forums of message boards by sellers and consignors trying to promote their items. Some posts are direct to the point with no regard for the forum rules, while others find more creative ways to get you to look at their listings. While some wouldn't attempt to promote items they're selling themselves, if they consign it to somebody else to sell for them then suddenly it's okay to promote somebody elses's listings. >>
Good point.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>Sort of right, well mostly right, but just to clarify a bit:
A safety bid is a bid arranged by the seller to guarantee an item reaches at least some minimum the seller is willing to get. IOW, a reserve without using the reserve. It can take the form of a "Seed" bid to get the ball rolling, or if the seller begins to panic because his item is at 10% of VCP two days before hammer time, or because they just don't want to pay for a reserve. A true "shill" bid is one designed to push other bidders to their max, and generally is seen occurring as an auction reaches the end as opposed to the safety bid happening nearer the beginning. >>
I honestly didn't know "safety bid" was a real term. I thought it was a CU forum term only.
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
<< <i>
<< <i>Shilling isn't just placing bids. It's also all the obvious and not so obvious posts you see in the wrong forums of message boards by sellers and consignors trying to promote their items. Some posts are direct to the point with no regard for the forum rules, while others find more creative ways to get you to look at their listings. While some wouldn't attempt to promote items they're selling themselves, if they consign it to somebody else to sell for them then suddenly it's okay to promote somebody elses's listings. >>
Good point. >>
I think you guys are confusing shilling (which is unethical if not illegal) with spamming (which is annoying).
The vast majority of collectors have confidence in the auction house bidding format. It's really a bit disingenuous to suggest otherwise because of your bias against them.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You keep saying that transparency/knowing bidder names will remedy this shilling epidemic.
But what about these two points:
1. Some bidders prefer privacy/anonymity.
2. Assume names are known; how does that stop KNOWN PERSON X from placing a shill bid on ITEM Y from CONSIGNOR Z?
Say I consign an item to an AH or even ebay hypothetically using a 100% "visible" bidding system.
Now say I get my friend JON SATURN to lob in a shill bid.
How did visible or invisible inhibit the shilling? I just don't see how it can be stopped.
I also think there is so much pricing history in play now, that even in a hypothetical case where there was zero shilling, genuine collectors would use the past history (even if those prices were bloated by past shills) as a gauge and the bids would still wind up where they would have been, had a consignor/shiller lobbed in a "safety" bid. So in the end isn't it utterly moot?
Youre hyperbole is really becoming rather ridiculous now...I understand what your opinion of auction houses is, as do most other
members on this forum, but you are beating the proverbial dead horse here, and trying to impose your viewpoint upon others which is
rather presumptuous. There is no "rationalization" here as you mistakenly put it. But I've noticed lately that when others
disagree with your viewpoint on a particular topic, you dismiss or diminish the opposing opinion because it doesn't
correspond with your own, which is really rather narrowminded. As I said in an earlier post, there are many seasoned and experienced
collectors out there who enjoy participating in auction house listings. For you to summarily discount that venue because you
don't like the private bidding format or believe those who run these auction houses are inherently dishonest, is really off base, too, as
truthfully, you really don't have the experience to even back up your claims.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You are overlooking a fundamental difference here, however--no one here is attacking you for your POV--rather it is you who have been harping on the
auction houses and how they are fraught with dishonesty and unethical behaviorial practices. We get it--you don't trust auction houses--but with every post
in this thread (and others) you continue to feel the need to get up on your soapbox and pontificate to the masses your enlightened viewpoint. I'm being
somewhat facetious with that last statement, but such lecturing really does get a bit tireseome after a while, no offense.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>If you want bidders to have confidence let them know who is bidding. >>
Large auction houses have client lists that include "rare air" individuals. This is a pretty small group of people, but Pareto comes into play and a significant part of their business comes from this small pool. The house listens very carefully to what these bidders want. They obviously have confidence in the auction house or they wouldn't be clients. They obviously don't want public bidding or it would exist. I know a few will not use eBay as they feel it is gamed more than auctions or they simply want privacy. These are pretty financially successful individuals, not part of the 47%
Basically, their important bidders have confidence with the current system. It is as simple as that. Not saying it is right or wrong, just a fact.
1. Deal with sellers that you have the most confidence in ...in terms of their running fair auctions whether it be on eBay or auction houses.
2. Bid only what you are comfortable paying for an item. If you win you should feel that you got something you wanted at a price you were willing to pay. There is certainly a chance that you might have paid more than you needed to if there was shilling going on but at least you stayed within your price range. Shill bidding obviously encourages higher bids so don't get into a bidding war that takes you beyond what your original limit was.
There are many very honest sellers of sports collectibles that you can deal with so I don't feel that it is fair to even hint that "every" seller shills their auctions as the question was posed. A week ago I won four lots from a major auction house with the opening and only bid. I got these cards for less than they typically sell on eBay, even with the 20% commission. I can guarantee that there was no shill betting taking place on these items. I also won a half dozen eBay auctions in the past week for considerably less than the bid I placed, at far less than what these cards typically sell for. I can't believe that these sellers shilled their auctions or they wouldn't have let the cards go for what the final price was. Quite frankly, many eBay sellers have moved to BINs for their items just because they cannot confidently predict their items will sell for their value in the auction format and perhaps they do not want to involve themselves in any unethical practice such as shill bidding.
I have personally sold several thousand PSA cards on eBay and can guarantee you that there has never been a shill bid that I am aware of.
It is prudent to be knowledgeable and careful when laying your money out and deal with those you trust. Most of the cards you want will show up at a future auction, perhaps with a seller you can be comfortable with.
<< <i>Is bidding up an item so someone else has to pay the same as you did shilling? >>
absolutely
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Is bidding up an item so someone else has to pay the same as you did shilling? >>
absolutely >>
I don't see how that could be. You run the risk of winning an auction that you didn't want to so you're just another bidder in my opinion. >>
If it's your auction, or if you're doing to help the seller, with the hope that you DON'T end up with the item it's definitely shilling. ANY bid that is designed solely to raise the final price is shilling.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
If it is your own auction then obviously that is shilling. However, if you plan to pay for the auction if you win the card then it is not shilling regardless of your intent.
Robb
<< <i>If it's your auction, or if you're doing to help the seller, with the hope that you DON'T end up with the item it's definitely shilling. ANY bid that is designed solely to raise the final price is shilling.
If it is your own auction then obviously that is shilling. However, if you plan to pay for the auction if you win the card then it is not shilling regardless of your intent.
Robb >>
I am glad to hear this, as there have been several times in the past I have increased my bid solely out of spite. "You won't let me get ANY of the cards I want in this set break? Fine, ya big jerk. I don't really need this one, but here's an extra $25 that YOU'RE gonna have to pay for it!"
Not proud of it, but I've done it.
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
<< <i>If it's your auction, or if you're doing to help the seller, with the hope that you DON'T end up with the item it's definitely shilling. ANY bid that is designed solely to raise the final price is shilling.
If it is your own auction then obviously that is shilling. However, if you plan to pay for the auction if you win the card then it is not shilling regardless of your intent.
Robb >>
That doesn't matter in my definition, or in most definitions I've seen. If, for example, I'm working in cahoots with another seller to shill his auctions, it simply doesn't matter if I'm willing to pay or not. Being willing to pay if you "over shill" and no one outbids you is a simple cost of doing business if you're shilling. The intent to TRY and get another bidder to go higher than you is the core characteristic of shilling, NOT your willingness to eat the cost if you're high bidder.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>
I am glad to hear this, as there have been several times in the past I have increased my bid solely out of spite. "You won't let me get ANY of the cards I want in this set break? Fine, ya big jerk. I don't really need this one, but here's an extra $25 that YOU'RE gonna have to pay for it!"
Not proud of it, but I've done it. >>
i thought i was spiteful, too. seems i get into snipe wars with a certain competitor who keeps kicking my ass.
so, i vowed to be more aggressive and take a few risks in hopes of landing some wins. who cares if the margins are microscopic?
well, i guess they do. my ass is getting kicked harder than ever.
Your first two examples are not shilling, but this certainly can be seen as shilling based on the reasoning you gave for placing the bid. You don't really want it. You already own the card and don't want to add another one to your stack, but you don't want to see it sell for below a certain amount because it would hurt the value of your card. So you place the 85-90% bid to try to force the sale to the buyer at a level that won't hurt the value of your card. It can backfire and you can end up winning the card, but don't try retracting your bid or trying to return the card for some made up reason.
Dictionary definitions of a shill. Your "publicizing or praise" is in the form of bid. Your self interest and profit is maintaining the value of the same card you already own. This isn't the evil horrific kind of shilling that goes on with consignors and auctioneers. It's softer and gentler like a safety bid.
shill
noun
1. a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others into participating, as at a gambling house, auction, confidence game, etc.
2. a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.
verb (used without object)
3. to work as a shill: He shills for a large casino.
verb (used with object)
4.to advertise or promote (a product) as or in the manner of a huckster; hustle: He was hired to shill a new TV show.